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StarryEyes
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How about wives?? Anything stand out to you about wives from the verses in the OP (or even other verses)?
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leothelioness
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Like and like.Wait, hold on, she's supposed to reverence me? Hold on, I'm gonna go tell her that she's supposed to have been reverencing me all this time... let's see how this goes
But on a serious note.
A few things stand out to me.
First of all, to anyone who thinks they know and/or really understand these verses, really read them and/or think about them. Realize that in a time when women were thought of as much lower than men, practically as low as the animals, that Paul gave a command which amounted to yesteryear's equivalent of radical feminist ideology. And look at the sheer depth of how much the man is commanded to love his wife. Look at everything Christ did, and all of the suffering Christ undertook, for the sake of His church.
Not one single verse pertaining to the wife respecting the husband, is anything shocking for that time period. The big revelation was for wives to love their husbands.
But even more, people are so quick to overanalyze these verses and chop them down into the finest little details, of who should love who more, and who should respect who more. Why can't people just let God worry about the fine details, and strive to love AND respect their spouses as best as they can?
There's also the whole issue of folks taking verses such as 27, and the "avoid even the appearance of evil" verse, and misinterpreting them to mean that we, as Christians should "put on a face", so to speak, which not only is fake, but is un-Christian and is a very quick way to kill a marriage.
And there is not a "chain of command" that women are guilty of breaking if they "go over the man's head" and talk to God directly. This isn't the military or your job. We are all equally free to, and highly encouraged and mandated to, talk to God for ourselves.
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TanteBelle
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The scriptures are absolutely full of commands for a wife and her role as a wife and mother; very few commands are given to men as husbands. Where do I start? LOL!
This passage sums up everything that a wife is expected to be under God ...
Titus 2:4 That they (older women) may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Get that last part, coz that is darn serious!; 'That the word of God be not blasphemed'! If you don't do these things, you are blaspheming the word of God!
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TanteBelle has really kept on point here. Scripture (Paul particularly) is so straightforward on this matter that its just undeniable.
Just stop with the twisting, please. Be a little more careful in your exegesis of Paul's writings - especially such straightforward ones. Peter cautions about twisting Paul's wisdom expressedly:
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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I find this debate annoying. Its honestly not even close to a disputable point, exactly how scripture (particularly the NT) states that husbands and wives should behave. I know, it doesn't fit with feminism/modern thought. That doesn't change the Greek words, nor their meanings. The scholarship is abundant as to the precise meanings as well.
Just stop with the twisting, please. Be a little more careful in your exegesis of Paul's writings - especially such straightforward ones. Peter cautions about twisting Paul's wisdom expressedly:
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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I find this debate annoying. Its honestly not even close to a disputable point, exactly how scripture (particularly the NT) states that husbands and wives should behave. I know, it doesn't fit with feminism/modern thought. That doesn't change the Greek words, nor their meanings. The scholarship is abundant as to the precise meanings as well.
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Paulie079
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I mean it's a valuable thing to discuss. And what exactly would you interpret the passage to say? I've shown from the passage presented in the OP that in marriage, it's an act of mutual submission between the husband and wife. The ways in which they are called to submit, however, are different--their roles are different.
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One problem with such a dogmatic assertion is that, if what you are saying is true, then Jesus was wrong when he taught that only Gentiles, not his followers, relied on authority structures (lord it over them) in their dealings with others.
And all the NT writers were misguided when they never used words denoting authority over another when referring to any kind of leadership or structure within the churches.
John
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TanteBelle
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With all due respect, sir, the moment you start down the road of, Were in the NT now, not the old; were in the new covenant now, not the old, I have nothing further to discuss with you on this topic. The moment that you suggest that idea, theres no point to this discussion.
Forgive me if I offend, but that passage you brought up earlier about Messiah saying that He was the one who served, and that meaning that we are all in mutual submission to one anther is very weak to the debate because we know that we are not equal with Messiah nor is He to submit to us! He is our Saviour and His is our Judge! He is above us in authority and there is no way that Messiah submits to us. Youre confusing the definitions of submit and sacrifice and they are not the same thing!
sac·ri·fice(skr-fs)
n.
1.
a. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
b. A victim offered in this way.
2.
a. Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
b. Something so forfeited.
3.
a. Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
b. Something so relinquished.
c. A loss so sustained.
4. Baseball A sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly.
v. sac·ri·ficed, sac·ri·fic·ing, sac·ri·fic·es
v.tr.
1. To offer as a sacrifice to a deity.
2. To forfeit (one thing) for another thing considered to be of greater value.
3. To sell or give away at a loss.
v.intr.
1. To make or offer a sacrifice.
2. Baseball To make a sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly.
The NT is full of chains of authority too! The 12 Apostles had authority over the entire church. Bishops, deacons, what are they if not positions of authority and accountability? What are angels in heaven? Are they equal with God? Absolutely not! So what are they but servants and under God? Yet they are holy! To suggest that we are all equal in authority brings up the typical Christian phrase of, Dont judge me! Who are you to judge me? Paul clearly says, Let no man judge you but the body of Messiah! And the body of Messiah is not to judge outside the laws of scripture!
I sat at the computer the other night with about 100 scripture references on this subject, now if I cant read my Bible and my Bible alone and come to understand what it means without other saying, Well, in the Greek is means this or, Back in those days Yeah, but Paul was sexist . But were not under the law, were under grace and whatever other excuses they wish to bring up, I might as well take my Bible out to the back burner and do to it what I did to other books that were blasphemous and profane! Its a medieval concept that we common, uneducated folks need the wise, spiritual, learned theologians, professors, philosophers, Bible scholars and whatnot to tell me what God says in His word! And scripture abhors that idea! And Id have to reject the 7 characteristics about God that are all through the Bible which I can not do!
God promised women that they can win their husbands to God without the word but by their actions!! Never is husband promised such a thing! Theres something about a wifes impact and power that a wife has on her husband. This is only given to the wife and research has proved that to be true! Its a mystery further than we can even begin to understand but it is the way of a man with a maid!
You reject the idea of a husband being head over a wife and yet you rely on scholars and all to show you the truths of God!? Maybe Im missing something here?
As I said, I dont believe in the trinity theory but if you dont believe in the importance of the OT, Im kinda wondering if youd be interested in my thoughts on that too!?
Forgive me if I offend, but that passage you brought up earlier about Messiah saying that He was the one who served, and that meaning that we are all in mutual submission to one anther is very weak to the debate because we know that we are not equal with Messiah nor is He to submit to us! He is our Saviour and His is our Judge! He is above us in authority and there is no way that Messiah submits to us. Youre confusing the definitions of submit and sacrifice and they are not the same thing!
sac·ri·fice(skr-fs)
n.
1.
a. The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
b. A victim offered in this way.
2.
a. Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
b. Something so forfeited.
3.
a. Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
b. Something so relinquished.
c. A loss so sustained.
4. Baseball A sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly.
v. sac·ri·ficed, sac·ri·fic·ing, sac·ri·fic·es
v.tr.
1. To offer as a sacrifice to a deity.
2. To forfeit (one thing) for another thing considered to be of greater value.
3. To sell or give away at a loss.
v.intr.
1. To make or offer a sacrifice.
2. Baseball To make a sacrifice bunt or sacrifice fly.
The NT is full of chains of authority too! The 12 Apostles had authority over the entire church. Bishops, deacons, what are they if not positions of authority and accountability? What are angels in heaven? Are they equal with God? Absolutely not! So what are they but servants and under God? Yet they are holy! To suggest that we are all equal in authority brings up the typical Christian phrase of, Dont judge me! Who are you to judge me? Paul clearly says, Let no man judge you but the body of Messiah! And the body of Messiah is not to judge outside the laws of scripture!
I sat at the computer the other night with about 100 scripture references on this subject, now if I cant read my Bible and my Bible alone and come to understand what it means without other saying, Well, in the Greek is means this or, Back in those days Yeah, but Paul was sexist . But were not under the law, were under grace and whatever other excuses they wish to bring up, I might as well take my Bible out to the back burner and do to it what I did to other books that were blasphemous and profane! Its a medieval concept that we common, uneducated folks need the wise, spiritual, learned theologians, professors, philosophers, Bible scholars and whatnot to tell me what God says in His word! And scripture abhors that idea! And Id have to reject the 7 characteristics about God that are all through the Bible which I can not do!
God promised women that they can win their husbands to God without the word but by their actions!! Never is husband promised such a thing! Theres something about a wifes impact and power that a wife has on her husband. This is only given to the wife and research has proved that to be true! Its a mystery further than we can even begin to understand but it is the way of a man with a maid!
You reject the idea of a husband being head over a wife and yet you rely on scholars and all to show you the truths of God!? Maybe Im missing something here?
As I said, I dont believe in the trinity theory but if you dont believe in the importance of the OT, Im kinda wondering if youd be interested in my thoughts on that too!?
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Its not dogmatic to assert that a scripture means what it says. The idea that the wife is to obey the husband is re-iterated many times in the NT, this single scripture is somewhat unclear because of the command to mutual submission followed by the command for the wife to submit to the husband.
Since its somewhat unclear, IMO, the best thing to do is to allow the weight of scripture to control our interpretation. The weight of scripture is very clear that the wife is to be under her husband's authority. If necessary, I will provide the relevant passages (although TanteBelle has already done so).
Please provide the quotes you are supposedly referencing. Paul clearly lays down guidelines for church leaders (ie. authority) and proper worship in the church. The apostles (Peter and Paul especially) did clearly use authoritative terms; I find your 2nd assertion to be without merit.
Your first assertion is also flawed. Jesus exercised His authority and did not submit to human commands. Yet, His commands were for the good of His hearers, not His own. He served, but not because He was a slave to man. In this way, He did not 'lord it over' his disciples. But he never submitted to man either. In other words, His authority is absolute and yet He used it for His servants' good. Your assertion that Jesus' words are tantamount to saying there should be no authority in the church at all is incorrect IMO.
We have one line of scripture being used to negate the notion that wives ought to submit to their husbands, namely:
Ephesians 5:21
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
But the very next two lines indicate that wives are to be submitted to their husbands and for what reason:
Ephesians 5:22-23
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
The reasoning is clear: Christ is head of the church. He gave many commands which christians are to obey. In the same way, the husband is the head of the wife, and though the husband should serve the wife (as Christ did the church), she is to obey the husbands commands. This is re-iterated many times in the NT.
Should Christ have submitted to Peter? Its plain that he did not, and even called Peter satan for having told Jesus that he would not let him go to the cross. So should the husband obey the wife? Had Christ obeyed Peter, then there would be no salvation for mankind.
Christ does not obey the church. Christ came as one who serves, but not as one who takes orders. He gave orders and those who love Him shall obey. He is the leader, but in humility and compassion, He served His disciples' good rather than His own. He was not a slave, He served though He could not be commanded to do so by any human.
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TanteBelle
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Yeshua taught His disciples to not be high-minded. By Him, being the head, still getting down and washing their feet was a demonstration that just because you are a leader doesn't mean that you sit on your 'royal tuffet' and just give orders. A good leader knows how to be a good servant too! A king must serve the people but he doesn't do what the people command him to do! If they usurp his authority, he can put their heads on the chopping block! And God does the same with us!
I can't think of anywhere in scripture where the words submit and sacrifice are cross referenced! The words love and sacrifice are! 'No greater love hath any man than that he lay down his life for his friends.' 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.' 'Husbands, love your wives as Messiah loved the church and gave Himself for it.' I wonder how the mixing of the word submit would work in the army; when one side submits to the other, the winning side decides that they must all now sacrifice their life!???
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Paulie079
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Yeshua taught His disciples to not be high-minded. By Him, being the head, still getting down and washing their feet was a demonstration that just because you are a leader doesn't mean that you sit on your 'royal tuffet' and just give orders. A good leader knows how to be a good servant too! A king must serve the people but he doesn't do what the people command him to do! If they usurp his authority, he can put their heads on the chopping block! And God does the same with us!
I can't think of anywhere in scripture where the words submit and sacrifice are cross referenced! The words love and sacrifice are! 'No greater love hath any man than that he lay down his life for his friends.' 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.' 'Husbands, love your wives as Messiah loved the church and gave Himself for it.' I wonder how the mixing of the word submit would work in the army; when one side submits to the other, the winning side decides that they must all now sacrifice their life!???
Surrendering your right to live is submission. I'm not really sure how it isn't...
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TanteBelle
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I would say it can be but in a general sense, it's the ultimate act of love.
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Submission you say? Consider the following:
John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
Clearly Jesus Himself states that He is not in submission (except to the Father) but acts under His own authority when He lays down His life for the good of mankind.
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Paulie079
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Submit - "To yield oneself to the authority or will of another."
He says that He has authority and that no one takes His life from Him. He lays it down of His own accord. Ergo, He willfully (aka out of His authoritative will) submits Himself.
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Sorry, that doesn't wash.
He laid down His life of His own accord. How much clearer can it be that He didn't submit to the will of anyone (excepting the Father) in so doing?
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That was a submission based in love, never a yielding of authority. That's what Paul was getting at in Eph 5 in his words to husbands.
John
NZ
John
NZ
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Paulie079
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Right. I'm saying that laying down one's life = submission. They're interchangeable. So, to re-word your first sentence..."He submitted of His own accord. And I agree with you
Or to put it another way, He exercised His authority in deciding to submit to another. Does that mean that he could've decided not to submit ultimately? Yeah, because it was of His own accord. But He still submitted when He gave Himself up and He did it of His own accord. No one made Him do it. Smell what I'm steppin' in?
DISCLAIMER: Just to put this out there, I'm not saying I'm right necessarily...this isn't like something that I would defend to my death. But I'm just telling it the way it makes sense from what Scripture says. I don't know how laying down your life for another isn't submissive in nature.
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Right. I'm saying that laying down one's life = submission. They're interchangeable. So, to re-word your first sentence..."He submitted of His own accord. And I agree with you
Or to put it another way, He exercised His authority in deciding to submit to another. Does that mean that he could've decided not to submit ultimately? Yeah, because it was of His own accord. But He still submitted when He gave Himself up and He did it of His own accord. No one made Him do it. Smell what I'm steppin' in?
DISCLAIMER: Just to put this out there, I'm not saying I'm right necessarily...this isn't like something that I would defend to my death. But I'm just telling it the way it makes sense from what Scripture says. I don't know how laying down your life for another isn't submissive in nature.
Well, "submitted" doesn't mean "laid down one's life". If we disregard what words mean, I guess anything is possible. Sorry to be a little harsh in my tone, it just doesn't work imo.
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Well, "submitted" doesn't mean "laid down one's life".
"Not my will but yours". This encompasses both verbs and gives them overlapping connotations. Lexical definitions are but one part of arriving at the meanings of a word.
John
NZ
"Not my will but yours". This encompasses both verbs and gives them overlapping connotations. Lexical definitions are but one part of arriving at the meanings of a word.
John
NZ
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Paulie079
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But how? I know in all cases, submission doesn't mean laying down your life. But when you choose to lay down your life for someone else, you are most definitely laying down your will for theirs and that is submission by definition.
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Jesus did not lay down His life because we demanded it from Him. He did it because He willed it. He in no way submitted to us, he did it by his own will.
The bolded is not a necessarily true statement, in fact there could be many instances where the will of the person for whom the sacrifice was done had no bearing on the person's decision to die for them. Example: A soldier jumps on a grenade to keep his comrades alive. His fellows did not will him to do so, but are none-the-less saved by his actions. Their will had absolutely nothing to do with his will. There was no submission of wills, he wasn't ordered to jump on the grenade.
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