Lying for the Gospel's sake?

disciple-ofjesus · Oct 22, 2010

I don't see it. Can I ask why?

Tamara224 · Oct 22, 2010

LinkH said:
I would not say I was going to give a leadership seminar, especially if it is not for profit. That sounds like a business visit and some countries require special visas for that.

I am so not getting paid. I'm paying a LOT of money to do this.

Tamara224 · Oct 22, 2010

jeolmstead said:
Consider this:

1Sa 16:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you go on grieving over Saul? I have rejected him as king of Israel. But now get some olive oil and go to Bethlehem, to a man named Jesse, because I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
1Sa 16:2 "How can I do that?" Samuel asked. "If Saul hears about it, he will kill me!" The LORD answered, "Take a calf with you and say that you are there to offer a sacrifice to the LORD.
1Sa 16:3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell you what to do. You will anoint as king the man I tell you to."
1Sa 16:4 Samuel did what the LORD told him to do and went to Bethlehem, where the city leaders came trembling to meet him and asked, "Is this a peaceful visit, seer?"
1Sa 16:5 "Yes," he answered. "I have come to offer a sacrifice to the LORD. Purify yourselves and come with me." He also told Jesse and his sons to purify themselves, and he invited them to the sacrifice

(Apparently God told Samual to lie to Saul)

John O.

grasping the after wind · Oct 22, 2010

Has God told you to lie to anyone? If not then the passage about Samuel is irrelevant to this discussion.

Tamara224 · Oct 22, 2010

grasping the after wind said:
Has God told you to lie to anyone? If not then the passage about Samuel is irrelevant to this discussion.

It's not irrelevant if it shows that God has a history of doing something.

disciple-ofjesus · Oct 22, 2010

God has a history of lying? UH no. It wasn't a lie. God told Samuel what to say in order not to get killed. God canNOT lie. Period. This whole thing is quite disturbing, that people actually think God can lie. WOW. Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

murjahel · Oct 22, 2010

From Adam Clark's commentary on the O.T.

1 Samuel 16:2
Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrificeThis was strictly true; Samuel did offer a sacrifice; and it does not appear that he could have done the work which God designed, unless he had offered this sacrifice, and called the elders of the people together, and thus collected Jesses sons. But he did not tell the principal design of his coming; had he done so, it would have produced evil and no good: and though no man, in any circumstances, should ever tell a lie, yet in all circumstances he is not obliged to tell the whole truth, though in every circumstance he must tell nothing but the truth, and in every case so tell the truth that the hearer shall not believe a lie by it.

murjahel · Oct 22, 2010

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Proverbs 12:22[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Lying lips are an abomination[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to the Lord...'[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 3:9[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Lie not one to another, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]seeing ye have put off the old man,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]with his deeds'[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some Christians do not put off the [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'old man', it seems...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lies pass through the lips [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]of even those who call themselves [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christians...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Too many Christians even [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]regard lies as inconsequential...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Among the seven things that God [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]says He hates in Proverbs 6:16-19,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]three regard lying..[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The ninth commandment[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]tells us [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to not bear false witness[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]against our neighbor...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lying has many forms...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]its essence is 'deception'...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]lying is the telling of an untruth,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]with the intent to deceive...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]if a radio announcer says[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'car accident claims 3 lives'[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]but when he said it,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]unbeknowst to him,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a 4th had died...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]did he lie?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]no, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and God would not punish him for that,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for it was unintentional to speak [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that untruth...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a person may change his mind,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and not have lied...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cain lied when asked about Abel's [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]whereabouts...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cain said 'I know not'...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Joseph's brothers lied when they [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]said they found Joseph's coat, and [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]did not know where he was...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mankind destroys his character by lies...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]lying put Jesus on the cross...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]satan is the 'father of lies'...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 8:44[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lying is contrary to a Godly nature...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lying is serious...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]we need to watch our lips[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so that what comes from them,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]is truth....[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus is known as the 'Truth'...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and the more we know Him,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the more we will want to tell the truth....[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Holy Spirit is called [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the 'Spirit of Truth'...[/FONT]

disciple-ofjesus · Oct 22, 2010

a HEARTY Amen to the Murjahel! Amazing what I have read on this thread. Shocked is more like it!

gratefulgrace · Oct 22, 2010

Tamara224 said:
I am so not getting paid. I'm paying a LOT of money to do this.

So you ARE a tourist lol. But anyway this admonition kind of strikes me as a situation described by Jesus where we are told to be
'wise'. I don't see it as lying at all. Our Bible school has taken the title "Bible School" out of the college name for the same reason. There is a lot of prejudice out there. And for long term missionaries it can be hazardous to their health in certain countries. We are still commanded to go but Jesus said:

Mat 10:16"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

luchsgud · Oct 23, 2010

grasping the after wind said:
If they deliberately misled then they were lying. How does one expect the Gospel to be believed by the non Christian when it is espoused by one who has been untruthful in other matters?

Over in South Africa there was a christian brother in the ministrey who was in desperate financial need and unable to clothe and feed his children.

Some Christian brothers who were businessmen in Rhodesia got together and asked a man they knew was going to South Africa to smuggle the money he needed out to him.

The act led the "smuggler" to the Lord because he discovered that Christians really cared about their brother.

You may be surprised to learn what God may do.

luchsgud · Oct 23, 2010

jeolmstead said:
Consider this:

1Sa 16:1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you go on grieving over Saul? I have rejected him as king of Israel. But now get some olive oil and go to Bethlehem, to a man named Jesse, because I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
1Sa 16:2 "How can I do that?" Samuel asked. "If Saul hears about it, he will kill me!" The LORD answered, "Take a calf with you and say that you are there to offer a sacrifice to the LORD.
1Sa 16:3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell you what to do. You will anoint as king the man I tell you to."
1Sa 16:4 Samuel did what the LORD told him to do and went to Bethlehem, where the city leaders came trembling to meet him and asked, "Is this a peaceful visit, seer?"
1Sa 16:5 "Yes," he answered. "I have come to offer a sacrifice to the LORD. Purify yourselves and come with me." He also told Jesse and his sons to purify themselves, and he invited them to the sacrifice

(Apparently God told Samual to lie to Saul)

John O.

That's not a bad reply Jay-Oh.

AirForceTeacher · Oct 23, 2010

Materially, I see little difference between what God told Samuel to do and what the missions organization told Tamara to do - tell a partial truth to obscure the whole truth which would be offensive to the adversary. Looks like a decent precedent to me.

luchsgud · Oct 23, 2010

By the way... I don't think God using lying spirits equates to this issue, nor supports what God told Samuel to do. I think they are an extremely bad comparison. In the example in Kings God's prophet actually told the truth and revealed what was happening. God did not lie... he just made it possible for the king to believe one. Neither king believed it anyway.

jeolmstead · Oct 25, 2010

Have a blessed trip T and don't worry beforehand as to what to say. God will give you wisdom when you need it. I will be praying for you and I expect to hear wonderful things about it all when you return.

John O.

ahighcalling · Oct 26, 2010

I dont see anything wrong with not telling them what your doing. Alot of people who travel don't like being questioned by government and want the freedom to travel and visit as they please. So what if you dont tell them exactly where your going or what your doing? Does that really Matter????? Or does Going where God leads you matter? Now if they ask you specificly should you lie???? NO! Of course not! God would not ask you to sin to preach the Gospel, thats silly. Now is it a sin to not mention all the details?? No, I don't think so! You must have to pray about it and ask God to give you the words to speak and He Will. You should not even worry about it!

grasping the after wind · Oct 26, 2010

luchsgud said:
Over in South Africa there was a christian brother in the ministrey who was in desperate financial need and unable to clothe and feed his children.

Some Christian brothers who were businessmen in Rhodesia got together and asked a man they knew was going to South Africa to smuggle the money he needed out to him.

The act led the "smuggler" to the Lord because he discovered that Christians really cared about their brother.

You may be surprised to learn what God may do.

How is this relevant to the current discussion about lying?

grasping the after wind · Oct 26, 2010

ahighcalling said:
I dont see anything wrong with not telling them what your doing. Alot of people who travel don't like being questioned by government and want the freedom to travel and visit as they please. So what if you dont tell them exactly where your going or what your doing? Does that really Matter????? Or does Going where God leads you matter? Now if they ask you specificly should you lie???? NO! Of course not! God would not ask you to sin to preach the Gospel, thats silly. Now is it a sin to not mention all the details?? No, I don't think so! You must have to pray about it and ask God to give you the words to speak and He Will. You should not even worry about it!

I would think one would be eager to witness that they were going where God leads them. What does it say about a person when they wish to hide their actual intentions from other people? We are not talking about a life threatening situation here but a temporary inconvenience. Why even contemplate being evasive for such paltry stakes. The price of your honesty should be higher than that.

disciple-ofjesus · Oct 26, 2010

grasping the after wind said:
I would think one would be eager to witness that they were going where God leads them. What does it say about a person when they wish to hide their actual intentions from other people? We are not talking about a life threatening situation here but a temporary inconvenience. Why even contemplate being evasive for such paltry stakes. The price of your honesty should be higher than that.

exactly! Excellent point. I get "inconvienienced" just crossing the border to go home and see family, and that is between CAnada and the States. I wouldn't think about lying to make it "easy". No justification to lie. It is a sin period.

_Sonnie · Oct 26, 2010

jeolmstead said:
Have a blessed trip T and don't worry beforehand as to what to say. God will give you wisdom when you need it. I will be praying for you and I expect to hear wonderful things about it all when you return.

John O.

Matthew 10:19-20

But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how or what you are to speak; for what you are to say will be given you in that very hour and moment, For it is not you who are speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Now hopefully you won't go through verses 17 & 18 for that to apply!

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