Disfellowshipping

Dalia24 · Sep 22, 2010

DH and I have a friend, "Bob," a single guy, who is hanging out with a gal, "Doris," who is not technically divorced. She and her husband, "Jim," have been separated for over a year, and he wants out, even though she has tried to get him to reconcile. When Bob and Doris met, he didn't know she wasn't truly single, and they became an item quickly. Then she told him the details, and while he was upset, he kept dating her. (DH and I, like Bob, also thought she was single.) Bob finally told us the score a couple weeks ago, saying he wasn't going to see her anymore. He wanted to see her after her divorce, realizing that it was wrong for them to before. Then, a week ago, he tells us that he is hanging out with her, but only "as a friend." He also feels that she is the wife God wants for him, when the time comes. C'mon! How can you be just friends with someone you were cuddling with 2 weeks ago, esp when you're both still attracted to each other?

Bob and Doris are Christians. Doris' separated husband, Jim, is a cranky mean man sometimes, possibly due to a chronic illness he has. He can get very loud and ugly in fights with Doris, but he still hasn't filed for divorce. (He did initiate the separation, tho - to the best of my knowledge.) And she hasn't. And, though Bob and Doris think he's not saved, he goes to a Bible church, and has been counseling with the pastor. (I think his being unsaved really works for Bob and Doris, so as to stay within scriptural guidelines if Jim ever does divorce Doris.)

So here's my question: Are Bob and Doris sinning by hanging out as "friends"? I think they are because she is still married. I sure wouldn't want DH to "hang out" with another woman his age! Esp if there was chemistry between them!

It's my understanding that a divorce is only legitimate if

A) there's adultery (Matt 5:32) (which there isn't evidence of) or

B) an unbelieving spouse leaves a believing one. (I Cor 7:10-16) Then the believing one is free to remarry.

So if two Christians divorce, and neither commits adultery, neither is free to remarry. For example, if (both Christians) Ken leaves Barbie, just because he wants to live alone, she's not free to remarry. But if Ken leaves Barbie for Dawn, that's different. Ken's adultery severs the oneness he and Barbie had, and now she can remarry. (Matt 5:32)

DH and I don't want to disfellowship with Bob, but it's heading in that direction. We feel that, even if he and Doris aren't fooling around physically, they are having an "emotional affair" and fooling themselves by calling it friendship... It's very uncomfortable to be with him. :sigh:

And while we were getting to know Doris as a single gal, now we're uncomfortable being around her as well...

seashale76 · Sep 22, 2010

It's interesting how these things seem to have no clarity outside of Apostolic and sacramental Christianity. You rely solely on the scriptures, yes? What do they tell you? If you believe that, then adhere to it.

Life2Christ · Sep 22, 2010

Divorce is allowed under the circumstances you listed. Bob and Doris are both committing adultery. It is a black & white situation. If Jim files for divorce, Doris is golden. He's an unbeliever who is walking away and that is ok (in God's eyes). If Jim has not filed for divorce, Bob and Doris have no business with each other.

Dalia24 · Sep 22, 2010

Seashale, I do believe in the Bible alone as the authority. I'm just trying to get input and advise, and make sure I'm not missing anything before dh and I take a really hard stand that may have bad results for years. Still, if that's what we should do, so be it, I know God will work in the situation. We are to obey.

Life2Christ - what if Jim is saved?

seashale76 · Sep 22, 2010

Dalia24 said:
Seashale, I do believe in the Bible alone as the authority. I'm just trying to get input and advise, and make sure I'm not missing anything before dh and I take a really hard stand that may have bad results for years. Still, if that's what we should do, so be it, I know God will work in the situation. We are to obey.

Life2Christ - what if Jim is saved?

Of course, they are sinning. However, this whole issue is about communion/eucharist. Yet, since none involved even believe in it, then you have no idea how it unites us or what it means (even when the scriptures tell you). When one is excommunicated (denied communion), then it is for the sole purpose of them hopefully choosing to repent and turn back. Excommunication is not meant to be permanent (as the idea is for them to come to their senses)- but the Body and Blood of Christ must not be profaned and Christ's Holy Church goes to lengths to protect it. One can be excommunicated and still go to services. You have no bishops or authority to appeal to here.

You're dithering over whether or not people are saved here, when it is obvious (going by scripture alone) that one must endure to the end.

Everything seems to be out of the proper context to me- much is missing. You're doing what you think is right, based on the information available to you, but there's still something off.

Gregory Thompson · Sep 22, 2010

This comes to me . hope it helps .

Romans 13:9-10

9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Dalia24 · Sep 23, 2010

Seashale, Bible-believing Christians do have bishops - we call them "pastors" and "elders." (btw, a pastor is actually just an elder - he just does most of the teaching/preaching in church. I think all the elders should take turns, but that's just me...) They are prayfully appointed. We also have deacons. I think the reason we call our pastors and elders "bishops" is so as not to confuse them with the bishops in the Catholic or Orthodox denominations, as there are so many big differences between us and them. But I'd rather not get into a debate about that.

I think you and I have some different authorities as far as our beliefs go. I'm friends with an orhtodox gal, and I'm learning how different she and are in our takes on what true Christianity is. So we just find common ground and enjoy our friendship.

Michael - thank you for that scripture - it was helpful.

Dalia24 · Sep 25, 2010

DH and I have thought more about this, and at this point we're going to avoid Bob until what time we know he is not seeing Doris. If we learn that she has divorced Jim, we'll need to know more about that, mainly - is Jim a Christian? If so, we will not be able to fellowship with them, as scripturally, Christians are not to divorce. And if Bob and Doris choose to marry, we'll not attend their wedding. Of course, they will be committing adultery in marrying, and that brings more prayerful discussion/decisions...

If only we followed the Word's advice. God hates divorce. DH and I are concerned about the chastening that will come. God spanks His kids, as any loving father would. I know I sound preachy here, but I am only repeating what that Bible says. And I know all too well the sting of the rod. But my Father loves me, and corrects me to keep me from falling further.

miss-a · Sep 25, 2010

The bottom line is she's a married woman, and no married woman should be having alone time with a man who's not her husband. And, even if she got divorced tomorrow for a Scriptural reason, she would need healing time before starting a new relationship, so to start up with Bob on Tuesday because she divorced on Monday is just not healthy. The whole thing is very unhealthy. And no, I don't buy the "just friends thing." They are kidding themselves. If he wanted to hang with friends, I'm sure there are plenty people he could hang with whom he has not dated. I think people often fool themselves with the "just friends" thing.

I don't know if you should break fellowship with him. Getting counsel from your pastor is probably the thing to do first. Your pastor can walk you through how to do it in the most godly and loving way or how to deal with this if breaking fellowship is not the answer.

God bless you for caring about your friend. God will give you the answer.

Praying for you,
A

sbbqb7n16 · Sep 25, 2010

Jesus' words on Divorce:

18“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Luke 16:18

3And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” 4He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
Matthew 19:3-9

Hiroyuki · Sep 25, 2010

It sounds like your are adulterous. God made people one soul and one spirit... so this controversy is against that...

Sorry.

wonderwaleye · Sep 27, 2010

Dalia24 said:
DH and I have a friend, "Bob," a single guy, who is hanging out with a gal, "Doris," who is not technically divorced. She and her husband, "Jim," have been separated for over a year, and he wants out, even though she has tried to get him to reconcile. When Bob and Doris met, he didn't know she wasn't truly single, and they became an item quickly. Then she told him the details, and while he was upset, he kept dating her. (DH and I, like Bob, also thought she was single.) Bob finally told us the score a couple weeks ago, saying he wasn't going to see her anymore. He wanted to see her after her divorce, realizing that it was wrong for them to before. Then, a week ago, he tells us that he is hanging out with her, but only "as a friend." He also feels that she is the wife God wants for him, when the time comes. C'mon! How can you be just friends with someone you were cuddling with 2 weeks ago, esp when you're both still attracted to each other?

Bob and Doris are Christians. Doris' separated husband, Jim, is a cranky mean man sometimes, possibly due to a chronic illness he has. He can get very loud and ugly in fights with Doris, but he still hasn't filed for divorce. (He did initiate the separation, tho - to the best of my knowledge.) And she hasn't. And, though Bob and Doris think he's not saved, he goes to a Bible church, and has been counseling with the pastor. (I think his being unsaved really works for Bob and Doris, so as to stay within scriptural guidelines if Jim ever does divorce Doris.)

So here's my question: Are Bob and Doris sinning by hanging out as "friends"? I think they are because she is still married. I sure wouldn't want DH to "hang out" with another woman his age! Esp if there was chemistry between them!

It's my understanding that a divorce is only legitimate if

A) there's adultery (Matt 5:32) (which there isn't evidence of) or

B) an unbelieving spouse leaves a believing one. (I Cor 7:10-16) Then the believing one is free to remarry.

So if two Christians divorce, and neither commits adultery, neither is free to remarry. For example, if (both Christians) Ken leaves Barbie, just because he wants to live alone, she's not free to remarry. But if Ken leaves Barbie for Dawn, that's different. Ken's adultery severs the oneness he and Barbie had, and now she can remarry. (Matt 5:32)

DH and I don't want to disfellowship with Bob, but it's heading in that direction. We feel that, even if he and Doris aren't fooling around physically, they are having an "emotional affair" and fooling themselves by calling it friendship... It's very uncomfortable to be with him. And while we were getting to know Doris as a single gal, now we're uncomfortable being around her as well...

Why not put this out of your mind and do what JESUS COMMANDED you to do?

GO FORTH UNTO THE ENTIRE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOSPEL

steven

Dalia24 · Sep 27, 2010

Miss-a, that's exactly how I feel. We may go in and talk with our pastor. Bob goes to a different church. He told us his pastor knows about it, and told him not to cut it off "cold turkey" with Doris, as that would be hurtful. We think his pastor meant "Say hi to her in church." But Bob heard, "Change your status to 'platonic' and you can still hang out some."

Wonderwaleye, it's not easy to "put it out of my mind." This is a close friend we've known for years. It's a fearful thing he's doing, and pains dh and me. We can't just stand around and say/do nothing.

Which of Jesus' commandments are you telling me to do? I would like some specifics. Thanks.

Dalia24 · Sep 27, 2010

Hiroyuki said:
It sounds like your are adulterous. God made people one soul and one spirit... so this controversy is against that...

Sorry.

Ummm... dh and I are married. It's our friend, Bob, that's seeing a married woman.

wonderwaleye · Sep 27, 2010

Dalia24 said:
DH and I have a friend, "Bob," a single guy, who is hanging out with a gal, "Doris," who is not technically divorced. She and her husband, "Jim," have been separated for over a year, and he wants out, even though she has tried to get him to reconcile. When Bob and Doris met, he didn't know she wasn't truly single, and they became an item quickly. Then she told him the details, and while he was upset, he kept dating her. (DH and I, like Bob, also thought she was single.) Bob finally told us the score a couple weeks ago, saying he wasn't going to see her anymore. He wanted to see her after her divorce, realizing that it was wrong for them to before. Then, a week ago, he tells us that he is hanging out with her, but only "as a friend." He also feels that she is the wife God wants for him, when the time comes. C'mon! How can you be just friends with someone you were cuddling with 2 weeks ago, esp when you're both still attracted to each other?

Bob and Doris are Christians. Doris' separated husband, Jim, is a cranky mean man sometimes, possibly due to a chronic illness he has. He can get very loud and ugly in fights with Doris, but he still hasn't filed for divorce. (He did initiate the separation, tho - to the best of my knowledge.) And she hasn't. And, though Bob and Doris think he's not saved, he goes to a Bible church, and has been counseling with the pastor. (I think his being unsaved really works for Bob and Doris, so as to stay within scriptural guidelines if Jim ever does divorce Doris.)

So here's my question: Are Bob and Doris sinning by hanging out as "friends"? I think they are because she is still married. I sure wouldn't want DH to "hang out" with another woman his age! Esp if there was chemistry between them!

It's my understanding that a divorce is only legitimate if

A) there's adultery (Matt 5:32) (which there isn't evidence of) or

B) an unbelieving spouse leaves a believing one. (I Cor 7:10-16) Then the believing one is free to remarry.

So if two Christians divorce, and neither commits adultery, neither is free to remarry. For example, if (both Christians) Ken leaves Barbie, just because he wants to live alone, she's not free to remarry. But if Ken leaves Barbie for Dawn, that's different. Ken's adultery severs the oneness he and Barbie had, and now she can remarry. (Matt 5:32)

DH and I don't want to disfellowship with Bob, but it's heading in that direction. We feel that, even if he and Doris aren't fooling around physically, they are having an "emotional affair" and fooling themselves by calling it friendship... It's very uncomfortable to be with him. And while we were getting to know Doris as a single gal, now we're uncomfortable being around her as well...

1 Timothy
Chapter 5

13 And furthermore, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies as well, talking about things that ought not to be mentioned.

2 Thessalonians
Chapter 3

11 We hear that some are conducting themselves among you in a disorderly way, by not keeping busy but minding the business of others.

Proverbs
Chapter 6

16 There are six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him;

17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood;

18 A heart that plots wicked schemes, feet that run swiftly to evil,

19 The false witness who utters lies, and he who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs
Chapter 17

9 He who covers up a misdeed fosters friendship, but he who gossips about it separates friends.

Sirach
Chapter 3:

21 What is committed to you, attend to; for what is hidden is not your concern.

22 With what is too much for you meddle not, when shown things beyond human understanding.

23 Their own opinion has misled many, and false reasoning unbalanced their judgment.

Now that doesn't excuse his wrong but his sin is not your concern. It is his to deal with and it appears he may already done so. Try saying the LORD'S PRAYER real slow and lets see if you still hold the same opinion. You need GOD'S WORD working in your life. Read and reread the NEW TESTIMENT until the next time you read it you will already know what IT'S going to say. For then IT'S locked in your heart to draw from the rest of your life. You will never be sorry you did. This is GOD'S ROADMAP given to us so that we are able to walk up that path to the KINGDOM of ALMIGHTY GOD. Then there are some very important BOOKS that are not stories that contain GOD'S WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING that can help us up the path to the KINGDOM of ALMIGHTY GOD:Read from the books of the Apocrypha as soon as possible. They will address the problems you face now and for a lifetime. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Start reading:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]SIRACH, WISDOM, PROVERBS, ECCLESIASTES[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These BOOKS can make a real difference in your life.[/FONT]You can read and print out this online at:

http://www.riseisrael.com/Revision1Apocrypha.pdf
steven

Dalia24 · Sep 28, 2010

Before you judge me as a busybody, I'd like to point out to you that -

1) I shared this with people Bob doesn't know. None of you know me, his age, my age, our gengers, etc. Gossip is sharing bad info about others to those you know mutually. That's hurtful. This is a different matter.
2) I am seeking counsel from other Christians, as we are told to do in Proverbs 11:14.
3) God has standards, and we are to judge other Christians who are living in habitual sin. Wouldn't you call me out if I were you friend, and wouldn't stop drinking every Friday night, driving drunk, throwing money away, possibly to my family's hurt? I wouldn't consider you to be a good friend. DH and I want to be good friends, but firstly, we fear God, and want to obey Him.

Here are two passages in which Paul instructs us about breaking fellowship with brothers/sisters in the Lord:

I Cor 5
II Thess 3:6-15

There's also a teaching site, How to Practice Church Discipline, by Bill Zimmer that is very good at breaking it down.

(The only thing I don't like about this teaching is the use of the word "immorality" instead of fornication. It's misleading. The KJV says fornication. It's a specific sin - sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage. Immoral can mean a lot of things. It's a relative term.)

At this point, dh and I have begun to avoid Bob. We may end up going to his pastor if he continues to see Doris. I've also thought of contacting Doris, but I'd like to avoid a scene. We feel strongly that Bob would explode on us if we did that. He's nuts about her.

I'm curious - is someone you care about in an illegitimate marriage (the defintion I've posted)? I'm just curious because you have put so much engery into your posts, I wonder if I'm pushing a button?

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