Not the only Christians?

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Doof-Le-Moi

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Hooo boy - that's a loaded question for sure :)

I believe, and believe firmly what the bible has to say about how one becomes a Christian. We have the New Testament teachings, examples, early Christian writings, etc. that give overwhelming, irrefutable evidence regarding the gospel plan of salvation.

Having said that, for the past 27 years or so I've not been able to decipher why so many do not, indeed why they DO refute the gospel plan of salvation as vehemently as they do.

I've wondered if it was something peculiar to modern Christianity (which has departed significantly imho from the teachings of the New Testament in so many areas).

I've wondered if it was the de-scripturalization of Christians - so few do I encounter these days who truly know the bible beyond a few favorite catch-phrase verses and whatever their preachers or traditions tell them. (I see few "Bereans" if you will, anymore).

Yet I see a fervency in many, a public faith that may be deeply private too - not judging, just observing...

I've come to the conclusion that I can't say to anyone anymore "you're not a Christian" or "they're not Christians" because they don't believe what I believe the bible says about how one becomes a Christian. I simply put forth what the bible has to say, try to explain it as best as God enables me and let it go at that. When pressed - and such "pressing" always seems to come in the form of this question - "So you're saying I'm not a Christian?" or, "So you don't think I'm a Christian because...?" I'll just defer such judgments and say "All I've done is share the word with you - you need to study these things for yourself - go back and prayerfully revisit what we've discussed, read other passages, etc. and come to your own conclusions.

Point being, it's not my position to be telling a person one way or the other if they already consider themselves to be Christian. A non-Christian who admits as much is another story altogether...
 
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ProfessorJ

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i personally would say that the statement is correct, that it's only a very small percentage that believe that. I'm from West Virginia, and of the dozen or so congregations I have known well enough to determine their opinion on this, only one actually believed that only CoC believers were going to Heaven. A much more popular statement is "we are only Christians, but we are NOT the only Christians."
 
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HisLittleHazelnut

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The cOC I grew up in believed that a) only cOC members were going to heaven, and b) that only those in the "mutual edification" subgroup of cOC were going to heaven (Mutual Edification being the belief that having a paid minister was wrong. This was in California.)
 
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Thedictator

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Most of the issues in the Churches of Christ are not salvational ones. The issue over Baptism is. If a person believes they can disobey God and not be Baptized and still be saved they are wrong. Most people in denominations today have a wrong understanding of Baptism. They believe that it is a work of law and it is not. Baptism is faith. The active alive faith that James talks about. Most people today want to be saved by dead faith and it will not work.
 
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d'Sasster

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Most of the issues in the Churches of Christ are not salvational ones. The issue over Baptism is. If a person believes they can disobey God and not be Baptized and still be saved they are wrong. Most people in denominations today have a wrong understanding of Baptism. They believe that it is a work of law and it is not. Baptism is faith. The active alive faith that James talks about. Most people today want to be saved by dead faith and it will not work.
Agree totally. Put differently, baptism *is* the gospel, and vice versa - inasmuch as it is in baptism all the salvific components of salvation meet - Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, faith, belief, repentance, confession, grace, mercy, forgiveness, and obedience - preceded by the gospel being preached, the word heard, and received.

I must confess, as much as I've tried to understand the various false notions about baptism - that it is an "outward sign of an inward grace" or that if connected with salvation, it is somehow a "work" (something in which we can boast) - or any of the other myriad of other concepts put forth by the modern church like, it's optional, or - necessary 'after' one is saved (but only when one is 'ready'), etc.. - as much as I've tried to understand such points of view, I can find neither reason for such beliefs nor scriptural basis for them either.

Given Paul's profuse explanations of baptism, from the explicit (Romans 6:1-6, etc.) to the indirect (Galatians 2:20, etc.), and Peter's command (Acts 2:38), not to mention Jesus' command (Mark 16:16) - one wonders why the confusion persists.

Am I willing to tell someone they are not a Christian because they weren't baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of their sins? As a young Christian, I was; but now after some 29 years in Christ, I won't do that. What I *will* do is prayerfully study the Scriptures with them, thoroughly, and let them come to their own conclusions. If they conclude otherwise, my proclamation will have little other than negative impact, but my conscience will be clear regardless. If they come to conclude as I have, and as the Ethopian eunuch did - "look, here is water, what prevents me from being baptized?" - and is - then I will rejoice, as the Lord will have added another soul to the body.
 
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abadhaircut

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Baptism is such a difficult subject to study with someone who does not believe in the necessity of it. I actually just had a study with a friend earlier today and when I asked him what he believes he said "whatever my church believes, that's what I believe." He said that baptism is not necessary and that baptism does not mean being immersed into water. So I showed him several verses such as John 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 and then tried to impress upon the importance of studying the scriptures for ourselves to find out what God's truth is. But indeed, it is a difficult subject to speak about.
 
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Thedictator

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Again most people believe the false teaching that Baptism is a work of law. The person who is baptized does no work at all. Baptism is a work that God does through the hands of his people. It is not a work of law. It is faith.
 
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d'Sasster

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Baptism is such a difficult subject to study with someone who does not believe in the necessity of it. I actually just had a study with a friend earlier today and when I asked him what he believes he said "whatever my church believes, that's what I believe." He said that baptism is not necessary and that baptism does not mean being immersed into water. So I showed him several verses such as John 3:5 and 1 Peter 3:21 and then tried to impress upon the importance of studying the scriptures for ourselves to find out what God's truth is. But indeed, it is a difficult subject to speak about.
You raise an excellent point - excellent. I used to run into exactly the same "brick wall" whenever I thought to "teach baptism" - whether to friends, family, etc. And you're right, whenever you attempt to do that, especially with professing Christians, the push-back can be enormous. And you're right again, inasmuch as it usually consists of "whatever their church believes."

I came to the conclusion long ago that baptism is not a topic to be taught - per se. I should explain (definitely, I'm thinking :) ) - it has been my experience that those who push back as they do with their church's beliefs on the topic are typically not studied themselves in such topics. They know "the basics" and believe in them. When the topic of baptism arises seriously, so too does the question of their salvation - and necessarily so.

To receive a different message about one's salvation would require one to deny what they already believe - in essence, to deny their [current] faith.

This is powerful "push back" indeed. And we should not take it lightly or delve into it hastily (and certainly not without much prayer), nor should we give up either.

When we jump right into a study on baptism with professing Christians, we presume several things that I think may cause the message to be rejected outright. The first is that they know the scripture, and have studied it themselves - as the Bereans did, who searched the scriptures diligently to see whether the things they were being told were in fact true. Many only regurgitate what they're told from the pulpit. Many only study what they're told from the pulpit. Few seriously question however what they're told from the pulpit.

The second thing that we presume is that the person is "ready" to receive such a message. We think that because they are professing Christians, their hearts are eager to know the truth and incorporate it into their lives. To tie that in with what I said above, they may be "eager" to know the truth - as long as the truth is what they already know or believe to be true (or in-line with same) - as taught them by people they have put their faith in to be teaching them accurately. But again, few seriously challenge the veracity of what they've been taught on their own, by studying it themselves with a view to know whether in fact it is true.

Few, for example of such people I've broached this subject with have ever gone back to the bible themselves - they are content to know what they know based on what they've already been told by people they think they can trust (people who frankly may be in the same boat they are in).

I must reiterate, the single greatest "push back" to this particular topic is that it may require some to deny their [current] faith to receive this message.

I believe that, because that was my experience - and a very, very powerful experience it was, let me assure you. I toiled in prayer over this like nothing else I've ever toiled in - scared the living daylights out of me, frankly.

I have but a few suggestions from my own experience - that may or may not be helpful. First - pray and pray consistently and fervently for that person - God will open the right door for you and them in time. Second - earn their trust, not as a friend or co-worker or sibling or son/daughter - but as one who (and who in their judgment) "rightly divides the word" and as one devoted to the word and lives the word. I should point out that the singular most effective thing with me was coming to realize how seriously those who taught me the word took the word. I saw it in everything they did, how the lived, how they fellowshipped, how they worshipped, and how they studied/taught/learned. I'd encountered so many "flakes" of religious types in my journey, everyone was suspect to me - especially "Christians." Third, let them teach you. Be willing to listen and learn yourself. Ask them what they know about the gospel - but keep the scripture as the objective focus of it - not personal beliefs, opinions, etc. - open the word and speak from the word. Study different topics relating to the gospel, faith, sin, repentance, grace, endurance, perseverance, the Word, the church - all with a view to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection - and eventually to how we participate in it.

I'm mindful of Philip and the eunuch - the eunuch who was studying Isaiah and wanted to know about whom was Isaiah talking. ... So Philip, beginning with this passage taught him about Christ - preached the gospel to him. And when taught properly, always generates the same question in the heart of them who have received it properly - "Look! Water! What prevents me...?"
 
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abadhaircut

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You raise an excellent point - excellent. I used to run into exactly the same "brick wall" whenever I thought to "teach baptism" - whether to friends, family, etc. And you're right, whenever you attempt to do that, especially with professing Christians, the push-back can be enormous. And you're right again, inasmuch as it usually consists of "whatever their church believes."

I came to the conclusion long ago that baptism is not a topic to be taught - per se. I should explain (definitely, I'm thinking :) ) - it has been my experience that those who push back as they do with their church's beliefs on the topic are typically not studied themselves in such topics. They know "the basics" and believe in them. When the topic of baptism arises seriously, so too does the question of their salvation - and necessarily so.

To receive a different message about one's salvation would require one to deny what they already believe - in essence, to deny their [current] faith.

This is powerful "push back" indeed. And we should not take it lightly or delve into it hastily (and certainly not without much prayer), nor should we give up either.

When we jump right into a study on baptism with professing Christians, we presume several things that I think may cause the message to be rejected outright. The first is that they know the scripture, and have studied it themselves - as the Bereans did, who searched the scriptures diligently to see whether the things they were being told were in fact true. Many only regurgitate what they're told from the pulpit. Many only study what they're told from the pulpit. Few seriously question however what they're told from the pulpit.

The second thing that we presume is that the person is "ready" to receive such a message. We think that because they are professing Christians, their hearts are eager to know the truth and incorporate it into their lives. To tie that in with what I said above, they may be "eager" to know the truth - as long as the truth is what they already know or believe to be true (or in-line with same) - as taught them by people they have put their faith in to be teaching them accurately. But again, few seriously challenge the veracity of what they've been taught on their own, by studying it themselves with a view to know whether in fact it is true.

Few, for example of such people I've broached this subject with have ever gone back to the bible themselves - they are content to know what they know based on what they've already been told by people they think they can trust (people who frankly may be in the same boat they are in).

I must reiterate, the single greatest "push back" to this particular topic is that it may require some to deny their [current] faith to receive this message.

I believe that, because that was my experience - and a very, very powerful experience it was, let me assure you. I toiled in prayer over this like nothing else I've ever toiled in - scared the living daylights out of me, frankly.

I have but a few suggestions from my own experience - that may or may not be helpful. First - pray and pray consistently and fervently for that person - God will open the right door for you and them in time. Second - earn their trust, not as a friend or co-worker or sibling or son/daughter - but as one who (and who in their judgment) "rightly divides the word" and as one devoted to the word and lives the word. I should point out that the singular most effective thing with me was coming to realize how seriously those who taught me the word took the word. I saw it in everything they did, how the lived, how they fellowshipped, how they worshipped, and how they studied/taught/learned. I'd encountered so many "flakes" of religious types in my journey, everyone was suspect to me - especially "Christians." Third, let them teach you. Be willing to listen and learn yourself. Ask them what they know about the gospel - but keep the scripture as the objective focus of it - not personal beliefs, opinions, etc. - open the word and speak from the word. Study different topics relating to the gospel, faith, sin, repentance, grace, endurance, perseverance, the Word, the church - all with a view to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection - and eventually to how we participate in it.

I'm mindful of Philip and the eunuch - the eunuch who was studying Isaiah and wanted to know about whom was Isaiah talking. ... So Philip, beginning with this passage taught him about Christ - preached the gospel to him. And when taught properly, always generates the same question in the heart of them who have received it properly - "Look! Water! What prevents me...?"


Thank you very much and God bless for your response. I admit I have not been attempting to study with people for very long and I am the kind of person that gets frustrated easily. I will have to pray about this for sure and maybe find a different angle to begin from. It is amazing how many churches teach people things that aren't found in the scripture and how few people are actually willing to search for themselves. I was raised in the Church and I always look up the scripture that our preacher brings up, not because I don't trust him, but because people make mistakes, even preachers.
 
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Windlord

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I was thinking about the statement: "There is a very small percentage of RM believers who believe that only RM believers are true Christians, but this is not a popular view." and wondered to what extent this represents the belief of the users.

Refrus

I don't believe that RM believers are the only true Christians. But there are some people in my Church who come close to it. They certainly believe that if someone is baptized in a way other than immersion then that person probably isn't saved, but I'm not so sure of that.

At any rate, they've got double standards about it too. Because those same people would also claim that America is a Christian Nation, and that our founding fathers and our first presidents were all Christians. I have heard it said from the Pulpit in fact that George Washington was a great Christian Man. In spite of the fact that Washington was an Episcopalian and was baptized by sprinkling as an infant :p
 
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ModestGirlsRock

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I'm reading everyone else's answers, and I agree with them. As another member has said, this can be a loaded question for sure. A friend became angry with me because I was saying through Christ we are saved and baptism of immersion is a part of it. I said it's not me that says it, the Bible states it. Personally, if I could just say, "All you have to do is say 'I believe'" and go on with your lives as long as you don't hurt someone else", I totally would. Yet, I can't and I know this from studying God's Word. All I tell others is they've got to figure it out for themselves, but ask me questions, and if I can't answer, we'll figure it out together. I've never been taught or have believed RM Christians were the only ones going to heaven because, in the end, God can do whatever He wants so who am I to judge? Though I do believe we're Christians that truly get into the Word and question ourselves if what we are doing ,as the body of Christ, is correct as possible. Or at least that is the kind of attitude I have seen among the people I worship with.
 
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rexboykin

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Such a mature attitude. I'm uplifted and encouraged by your response, my brother! I do believe we must discern between disciples of Christ and those who are not. Your sensitive and loving approach is wise. Nevertheless, we must ALSO recognize that resistance of Holy Spirit is a serious indication of 'heart issues.' I believe this must be addressed BEFORE any technical instruction or 'correction' can be properly administered. Confronting error is a part of following the Master. How we confront error is a challenge every disciple must face, with God's help. Transparency and genuine humility is the most effective avenue. Being 'effective' is important. God is glorified by MUCH fruitfulness. We must never become mediocre and lukewarm anymore than we should become harsh and insistent.
 
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SuzanneM52

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Mind if I complicate this subject a little bit? What if we HAVE no one to baptise us? Please dont answer and say there are churches on every corner because altho that is true, I do not want to have to make an appointment, nor do I want to be baptised infront of a bunch of people.
 
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aggie03

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Hi Suzanne!

As far as I can tell from the Bible, there isn't a specific person who must do the baptizing, i.e. it is not required to be baptized by a preacher or any other church "official". People in the New Testament seem to be baptized by whoever was available to do the baptizing. Also, there is not a single recorded instance of a baptism taking place inside something like a modern church building. I believe that you can be baptized in a place like that, but you certainly don't have to be.

What we do see in the New Testament regarding baptism is a sense of urgency about the matter. The Ethiopian Treasurer in Acts 8 was baptized as soon as they found water. The Philippian Jailer was baptized immediately in the middle of the night. When people found out that they needed to be baptized, they did it right away. I don't read anything about baptism services where large groups wait to be baptized together, and I don't read about people waiting until Sunday to get baptized in a large group. They got baptized as soon as they realized they needed to.

My advice to you, if you know that you need to be baptized, would be that you find someone willing to do it, and then get it done right away. That is the way things were done in the Bible.
 
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heapshake

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I do not want to have to make an appointment, nor do I want to be baptised infront of a bunch of people.

I think you could probably walk in off the street in most churches and get baptized. You might get questioned a bit, but it can be done.
 
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DerSchweik

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Hi Suzanne!

As far as I can tell from the Bible, there isn't a specific person who must do the baptizing, i.e. it is not required to be baptized by a preacher or any other church "official". People in the New Testament seem to be baptized by whoever was available to do the baptizing. Also, there is not a single recorded instance of a baptism taking place inside something like a modern church building. I believe that you can be baptized in a place like that, but you certainly don't have to be.

What we do see in the New Testament regarding baptism is a sense of urgency about the matter. The Ethiopian Treasurer in Acts 8 was baptized as soon as they found water. The Philippian Jailer was baptized immediately in the middle of the night. When people found out that they needed to be baptized, they did it right away. I don't read anything about baptism services where large groups wait to be baptized together, and I don't read about people waiting until Sunday to get baptized in a large group. They got baptized as soon as they realized they needed to.

My advice to you, if you know that you need to be baptized, would be that you find someone willing to do it, and then get it done right away. That is the way things were done in the Bible.
I would agree with this totally. Nowhere in the New Testament are there listed "qualifications" for those who may baptize others (save being Christians themselves - but even that is assumed, and rightfully so I would hope, given what baptism is/means). It's my understanding any Christian can baptize someone who seeks to become a Christian.

All I would caution is that those who do it, do it with all the reverence it deserves.
Oh my gosh am I ever excited now! Thanks SO much aggie! We are going to the beach (Lake Michigan) tomorrow. I cant think of a more perfect location!!!!!:clap:
AMEN!! I was fortunate to baptize a close friend in a nearby reservoir years ago and I have to say the location added a degree of special-ness to the occasion.

Let us know!! :amen:
 
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