The soul and the body are they the same or different ?

angelmom01 · May 22, 2010

judah israel said:
Again Nat, rest, sleep, dead, whatever you want to call it.

(John:11:11,14) (v.11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And then He (who IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE) went and called Lazarus out of His grave, awaking Him from His "sleep" did He not? And He told Martha that those who live and believe SHALL NEVER DIE, did He not?

(Luke:8:52-53) (v.52) And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. (v.53) And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Much like those who said: "Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death"??

Do you think that they somehow MADE VOID THE WORDS OF CHRIST who said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" by THEIR CLAIM that ABRAHAM IS DEAD?

(1Cor.15:51-53) (v.51) Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, If it is written in scripture then I believe! And we shall not all sleep! This thing is so close to an end that I believe that some of us may not sleep, but be changed. But when? (v.52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (v.53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. At sound of the last trump that seventh and great trumpet the righteous dead shall be raised and given their glorified bodies and the righteous living shall be changed into their glorified bodies.

That whole passage is about THIS MORTAL "putting on" IMMORTALITY (which only Christ has). Can you explain how A CORPSE is MORTAL?

Or why Paul would say in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians that our desire is NOT TO BE UNCLOTHED, but to be CLOTHED UPON?

(1Thess.4:15-16) (v.15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(v.16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And Jesus said: "I will not leave you comfortless; I WILL COME TO YOU", does He not COME "as a thief in the night" (to those WHO SLEEP) to WAKE THEM out of their "sleep" saying: "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light"? Is this talking about corpses in physical graves?

(Rev.11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; sounded the seventh trumpet and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Are you saying that Christ is not yet reigning over His kingdom? That the kingdoms of this world have no yet become the kingdoms of our Lord?

There are too many more scriptures to list.

At the sound of the seventh trump the coming of the Lord will take place. The righteous dead shall be awakened from their sleep and the righteous living changed.

But until then the dead are simply dead.

And yet Christ said that in the time of harvest He would send forth His angels telling them "gather ye together FIRST THE TARES". How do you reconcile that with Paul's words if they are both talking about "the dead" after a carnal truth, rather than a spiritual one?

As as far as concerned, (John:21:22) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. The Lord God can do as He will, but He will and cannot lie! And His word says, His word now, Im not talking Catholicism. Because thats where all of this confusion come from about the immoral soul.

I assume you mean immorTal soul? But what does any of this have to do with whether or not a soul is "immortal" or whether or not it can "die" when "THE SOUL that sinneth IT SHALL DIE" has nothing to do with physical death anyway (that SOUL is STILL ALIVE, physically) and when it comes to the body, there is a natural body (that returned to dust) and there is a spiritual body and GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him? So does that fact that someone's natural body has returned to dust somehow prove that they "no longer have a body"?

His word says, (John:6:39-40,44,54) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

(v.40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(v.44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(v.54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It does matter what you or I think, the scriptures says that the dead are dead until the last day.

Peace

Yeah, sounds a lot like what Martha said to Jesus at the resurrection of Lazarus, as well, doesn't it? And what was Jesus' response to her when she said: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day"?

Fireinfolding · May 22, 2010

judah israel said:
Of course you will rest where He will's. Because you have no choice and neither do I.

Peace

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yeah here it shows they are to rest for a season while ohers are killed on earth as they were should be fulfilled

judah israel · May 22, 2010

angelmom01 said:
And then He (who IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE) went and called Lazarus out of His grave, awaking Him from His "sleep" did He not? And He told Martha that those who live and believe SHALL NEVER DIE, did He not?

Much like those who said: "Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death"??

Do you think that they somehow MADE VOID THE WORDS OF CHRIST who said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" by THEIR CLAIM that ABRAHAM IS DEAD?

That whole passage is about THIS MORTAL "putting on" IMMORTALITY (which only Christ has). Can you explain how A CORPSE is MORTAL?

Or why Paul would say in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians that our desire is NOT TO BE UNCLOTHED, but to be CLOTHED UPON?

And Jesus said: "I will not leave you comfortless; I WILL COME TO YOU", does He not COME "as a thief in the night" (to those WHO SLEEP) to WAKE THEM out of their "sleep" saying: "Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light"? Is this talking about corpses in physical graves?

Are you saying that Christ is not yet reigning over His kingdom? That the kingdoms of this world have no yet become the kingdoms of our Lord?

And yet Christ said that in the time of harvest He would send forth His angels telling them "gather ye together FIRST THE TARES". How do you reconcile that with Paul's words if they are both talking about "the dead" after a carnal truth, rather than a spiritual one?

I assume you mean immorTal soul? But what does any of this have to do with whether or not a soul is "immortal" or whether or not it can "die" when "THE SOUL that sinneth IT SHALL DIE" has nothing to do with physical death anyway (that SOUL is STILL ALIVE, physically) and when it comes to the body, there is a natural body (that returned to dust) and there is a spiritual body and GOD GIVES IT A BODY, as it pleases Him? So does that fact that someone's natural body has returned to dust somehow prove that they "no longer have a body"?

Yeah, sounds a lot like what Martha said to Jesus at the resurrection of Lazarus, as well, doesn't it? And what was Jesus' response to her when she said: "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day"?

There is a time for everything even the resurrection of the dead. Go and read Hebrews the 11th chapter. And it will explain that everyone gets their reward and the same time.

Peace

angelmom01 · May 22, 2010

Heb 11 is about FAITH. And all of those listed HAD FAITH and it is BY FAITH that we saved. Care to point to something more specific? Or address any of the specific scriptures that I posted?

judah israel · May 22, 2010

angelmom01 said:
Heb 11 is about FAITH. And all of those listed HAD FAITH and it is BY FAITH that we saved. Care to point to something more specific? Or address any of the specific scriptures that I posted?

(Heb.11:13,39-40) (v.13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(v.39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

(v.40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What part of this don't you understand? You serve Lord and if you don't live until His second coming then you die.

When He makes His second coming He will raise you from the dead.

The death He's talking about that some shall not see is the second death.

There is a time for everything! There has not been a resurrection of the of the dead yet.

(2Tim.4:1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Peace

NatalieJan777 · May 23, 2010

If the 2nd death are all those not written in the book of life, then what of these:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Does not this happen before the great white throne?

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I will be honest, I am still confused about this whole period of prophecy. It just doesn't make sense to me that all must be waiting for one time to raise from the dead. How else will the elect reign for 1,000 years with Christ Jesus, if they must wait first to be raised from the dead for the great white throne?

Please enlighten me here, I am in dire need.

Fireinfolding · May 23, 2010

Ever notice he says you will NOT BE HURT of the second death? Christ also LOOSED THE PAINS OF death and then theres what is called THE STING OF death?

The thousand years is also spoken of in the OT but much of that scripture goes ignored as He lived A THOUSAND YEARS TWICE TOLD which I believe further expounds upon it knowing that no prophecy of scripture is its OWN interpretation. And a thousand years is AS A DAY and He lived a thousand years TWICE TOLD. The key is in "Yesterday", To day" and "For ever" wherein is found "THE REIGNS" because "death reigned" (in whats called "yesterday" and in the "To day" (where the dead HEAR the voice of the son of God and LIVE is reigning in the LIFE (by one) that NOW IS and they are also shown as living and reigning in what is the "For ever"

Its shown in various ways, its actually fascinating. Keywords are "yesterday" and "thousand years", night, shadow, dead, reign, life reign, "To day" and "For ever" (where these apply) "night PAST" and "darkness PAST" then go to town

NatalieJan777 · May 23, 2010

The thousand year thing I have a problem comprehending as well. I am getting there, perhaps slower than others, none the less I do see progress in understanding. It is like man was made in God's Image (his likeness), and a prophet 'like' unto you will be raised as was told to Moses. The thing is 'like' is not the same as 'exactly', therefore I have great issue of mind when I hear 1,000 years to us is 'like' a day to GOD. Because like does not guarantee exactness. Thanks for the key words though. =) I shall surely look into them as time permits and GOD is willing. Was TWICE TOLD a keyword? Cause that surely went over my head, even though underlined and capped.

Fireinfolding · May 23, 2010

NatalieJan777 said:
The thousand year thing I have a problem comprehending as well. I am getting there, perhaps slower than others, none the less I do see progress in understanding. It is like man was made in God's Image (his likeness), and a prophet 'like' unto you will be raised as was told to Moses. The thing is 'like' is not the same as 'exactly', therefore I have great issue of mind when I hear 1,000 years to us is 'like' a day to GOD. Because like does not guarantee exactness. Thanks for the key words though. =) I shall surely look into them as time permits and GOD is willing. Was TWICE TOLD a keyword? Cause that surely went over my head, even though underlined and capped.

Sorry, thats just how Im led to post, half the time whats in black and white goes ignored (around here) so I do have a tendency to do that (which can also be annoying I agree).

You could have found the twice told under the "thousand years" is why I excluded it ^_^

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Heres the key to the completion of a thousand years here (notice "the WHEN" part)

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday **when** it is past, and as a watch in the night.

As you well know The thousand years must be "finished" but knowing WHEN it is PAST (is expressed here) in here are keywords to discern when it is. Night is one of those, God called Night what? THEN run that word along with PAST

Yesterday (is key in this also) as the dead know not anything (and speaks to "the shadow") wherein the law contains "the shadow" and the REIGN (as it pertains to death) is spoken of in relation to the same

Job 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)

Pretty interesting, Im not getting (yet) Satan loosed (for a season) but thats building now so I dont know everything either as that has been irking me and Angelmom for a while, but we are working on it and Gods been awesome as usual aiding in building according to the patern set, but right now ( no ) I try to get one thing before I tackle another but both need to make sense as they relate to one another, till then its incomplete (in my eyes anyways).

Bless you

NatalieJan777 · May 23, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Pretty interesting, Im not getting (yet) Satan loosed (for a season) but thats building now so I dont know everything either as that has been irking me and Angelmom for a while, but we are working on it and Gods been awesome as usual aiding in building according to the patern set, but right now ( no ) I try to get one thing before I tackle another but both need to make sense as they relate to one another, till then its incomplete (in my eyes anyways).

Ahhhh! I now see and understand, Thank You!

Fireinfolding · May 23, 2010

NatalieJan777 said:
Ahhhh! I now see and understand, Thank You!

Yes all knowledge (and thats if your lucky to HAVE ALL knowledge) is still that which is categorized as being only in part (even THE ALL part)

So even if any of us had it none could boast of arriving at "somewheres special" (which would go the same for knowing all mysteries, having all understanding, all knowledge etc) without love what can anyone of really know right?

Especially when its about knowing Him (Who is love) and walking in the same love (wherein we are perfected).

Now thats what its about

NatalieJan777 · May 23, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Yes all knowledge (and thats if your lucky to HAVE ALL knowledge) is still that which is categorized as being only in part (even THE ALL part)

So even if any of us had it none could boast of arriving at "somewheres special" (which would go the same for knowing all mysteries, having all understanding, all knowledge etc) without love what can anyone of really know right?

Especially when its about knowing Him (Who is love) and walking in the same love (wherein we are perfected).

Now thats what its about

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

We do all await for it all to be known, in the mean time, it all works to HIS WILL and HIS GLORY!

:amen:

angelmom01 · May 23, 2010

judah israel said:
(Heb.11:13,39-40) (v.13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(v.39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

(v.40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

What part of this don't you understand? You serve Lord and if you don't live until His second coming then you die.

When He makes His second coming He will raise you from the dead.

The death He's talking about that some shall not see is the second death.

There is a time for everything! There has not been a resurrection of the of the dead yet.

(2Tim.4:1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Peace

What was the promise, judah israel? Was it not CHRIST? Had Christ been born yet? NO!! So then they had NOT RECEIVED THE PROMISE.

That doesn't change that fact that they all died IN FAITH!

In faith of what? THE PROMISE = CHRIST!!

How are we SAVED, judah israel? Is it not BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE?

And who is God the God of? The dead? :sorry:

or THE LIVING?

And did GOD HIMSELF not say I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB??

judah israel · May 29, 2010

angelmom01 said:
What was the promise, judah israel? Was it not CHRIST? Had Christ been born yet? NO!! So then they had NOT RECEIVED THE PROMISE.

That doesn't change that fact that they all died IN FAITH!

In faith of what? THE PROMISE = CHRIST!!

How are we SAVED, judah israel? Is it not BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE?

And who is God the God of? The dead? or THE LIVING?

And did GOD HIMSELF not say I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB??

No this promise was not Christ it was, (Rev.3:21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This promise that no one has received yet is eternal life ruling with God in His kingdom that will be established on this earth.

Peace

angelmom01 · May 29, 2010

judah israel said:
No this promise was not Christ it was, (Rev.3:21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This promise that no one has received yet is eternal life ruling with God in His kingdom that will be established on this earth.

Peace

Try reading Gen 17 and Rom 4. The promise that was make to Abraham was that he would be the father of many nations; that through his seed many nations would be blessed. And if you turn to Gal 3 you will clearly be able to see that the promise was not made concerning many seeds (plural) but of one seed (singular) CHRIST!! :amen:

So what then is "eternal life", judah israel?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And how and when does one receive eternal life, judah israel?

1Jn 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

So who has eternal life?

Those who believe on the name of the Son of God!!

And because they believe, they have passed from death unto life!!

And because they live and believe, they shall never die!! :amen:

Because they have been given access to the Tree of Life (CHRIST), as they have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, and are even now seated with Christ with heavenly places. :angel:

judah israel · May 29, 2010

angelmom01 said:
Try reading Gen 17 and Rom 4. The promise that was make to Abraham was that he would be the father of many nations; that through his seed many nations would be blessed. And if you turn to Gal 3 you will clearly be able to see that the promise was not made concerning many seeds (plural) but of one seed (singular) CHRIST!!

So what then is "eternal life", judah israel?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And how and when does one receive eternal life, judah israel?

1Jn 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

So who has eternal life?

Those who believe on the name of the Son of God!!

And because they believe, they have passed from death unto life!!

And because they live and believe, they shall never die!!

Because they have been given access to the Tree of Life (CHRIST), as they have been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son, and are even now seated with Christ with heavenly places.

Then why are believers dying every day????

There is a set time to receive eternal life!

(Rev.22:12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Peace

angelmom01 · May 29, 2010

judah israel said:
Then why are believers dying every day????

Because it has nothing to do with "the body of this death". It is "the body of this death" that we need to be redeemed from. And that redemption comes THROUGH CHRIST when THIS MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY (by being CLOTHED with Christ)!!

It's not about being UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON... that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE!!

There is a set time to receive eternal life!

(Rev.22:12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Peace

Indeed it is.

Joh 14:18-21 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It's all about CHRIST IN YOU!! That is THE HOPE OF GLORY! :amen:

That is what Paul waited for, for Christ to be formed in them.

That life IS IN THE SON. :bow:

He who HAS the Son HAS Life!!

ben israel · May 31, 2010

angelmom01 said:
Because it has nothing to do with "the body of this death". It is "the body of this death" that we need to be redeemed from. And that redemption comes THROUGH CHRIST when THIS MORTAL has PUT ON IMMORTALITY (by being CLOTHED with Christ)!!

It's not about being UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON... that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE!!

Indeed it is.

Joh 14:18-21 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It's all about CHRIST IN YOU!! That is THE HOPE OF GLORY!

That is what Paul waited for, for Christ to be formed in them.

That life IS IN THE SON.

He who HAS the Son HAS Life!!

The soul and the body are they the same or different ?

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