The soul and the body are they the same or different ?

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. <-----> Hebrews 4:12

Old King Cole was a merry old soul , and a merry old soul was he !

Was his body merry ?

Or who he was as an individual ?

I am not my body , and my body is not me .

I live in my body , my soul is I , you see ?

The spirit is the life force , it quickens our bodies , it animates us , and gives us consciousness .

The body is the temple , which houses the spirit .

And the essence + entirety of the individual characteristics of the relationship + interaction which occurs between those two , ( body + spirit ) ... is the soul .

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? <-----> 1st Corinthians 6:19

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. <-----> 1st Corinthians 3:16+17

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. <-----> Matthew 10:28

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death. <-----> Revelation 2:12

There is a resurrection from the first death ( death of the body ).

But there is no resurrection from the second death ( death of the soul ).

Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction. <-----> Jeremiah 17:18

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. <-----> Psalm 104:35

I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found. <-----> Psalm 37:35+36

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: <-----> 1st Peter 2:9

Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; <-----> 2nd Corinthians 1:10

Praise Be to God and Jesus our Messiah !

wm

NatalieJan777 said:

How then was King Saul able to have the witch of endore raise Samuel from the grave? If his soul was truly dead would this not have been impossible? (1st Samuel 28)

Also:

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

How do you explain Christ Jesus assuring those who listen and follow HIM that they shall never perish? I personally believe HIM. When HE tells me that if I listen to and follow HIM which means putting into practice that which HE taught, I shall never perish. While I know my body is capable of corruptibility (death), something of me must remain for me to never perish.

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(1Sam.28:13-14) (v.13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. gods spelled with a small g denotes pagan gods or satan and his angels.

(v.14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

It said that Saul perceived that it was Samuel, Saul was so desperate for an answer from God that he saw what He perceived was Samuel.

How could Samuel possible be talking when, (Ecl.9: 5) (v. 5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(v.10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

(Psalm146:3-4) (v.3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. (v.4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

(Psalm:30:9) What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth.

(John:10:27-28) is referring to the second death, we know that it is appointed to all men to die. And if we don’t live to the seconding coming of the Lord we all will do just that.

Everything points to eternal life, that’s what this journey in this flesh is all about, the second life.

When you die all of you are dead and the only thing that returns to God is the breath of life.

Peace.

Fireinfolding said:

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

You can die and still write to tell about it

He lives YET not HE (Paul) who died in first Adam but Christ (last Adam) lives in Him (the life quickening Spirit)

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That's the old sinful Paul that died, like we all are supposed to do when we recieve Christ into our life.



Peace

You wish to call it death. But I do not see it that way. I wish to call it rest, amongst the living? I do not know for I've never experienced it, all I know is that it will be a peacefull time for my soul.

Psalm 116:6-9 The LORD protects the simplehearted; when I was in great need, he saved me. Be at rest once more, O my soul, for the LORD has been good to you. For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Matthew 22:31-32 "But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

judah israel said:

That's the old sinful Paul that died, like we all are supposed to do when we recieve Christ into our life.



Peace

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Did I somehow imply it was the Paul in Christ (the last adam) that did somehow?

NatalieJan777 said:

You wish to call it death. But I do not see it that way. I wish to call it rest, amongst the living? I do not know for I've never experienced it, all I know is that it will be a peacefull time for my soul.

Psalm 116:6-9 The LORD protects the simplehearted; when I was in great need, he saved me. Be at rest once more, O my soul, for the LORD has been good to you. For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Matthew 22:31-32 "But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

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You may call it what you choose to but, (Job:14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.



What ever it's called, once there you don't know anything, nor can you see or do anything.


(Eccl.9:5-6) (v.5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.



(v.6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.




Peace

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The question...

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer...

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Fireinfolding said:

The question...

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Jesus answer...

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Click to expand...

There were a many people that kept Jesus' saying and they all saw death. This is referring to the second death.


(John:8:51-53) (v.51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (v.52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. It is quite obvious here that Jesus is referring to the second death.

(v.53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?



Peace

My response in Blue:

judah israel said:

You may call it what you choose to but, (Job:14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Was not Job before Christ Jesus?

What ever it's called, once there you don't know anything, nor can you see or do anything.


(Eccl.9:5-6) (v.5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Thier memory is forgotten here on earth, are you saying that GOD has forgotten them?

(v.6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Under the sun, again here in the eyes of mankind


Peace

Click to expand...

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

I honestly do not believe either of us knows the full truth of this matter.

judah israel said:

There were a many people that kept Jesus' saying and they all saw death. This is referring to the second death.


(John:8:51-53) (v.51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (v.52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. It is quite obvious here that Jesus is referring to the second death.

(v.53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?



Peace

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Well isnt Jesus Greater then Abraham? What exactly are you pointing out?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Didnt Jesus say God is the God of the living (even as it pertained to Abraham) THEY called dead (after the flesh and after a carnal truth)?

THEY said of JESUS you have A DEVIL for saying what He said ( which was "ye shall never see death") but you appear to be validating THEIR WORDS over HIS here... do you believe their words were correct and Jesus words incorrect here?

The outward man indeed perishes but the inward man is renewed. When this earthly tabernacle IS DISSOLVED doesnt it say WE HAVE a building from God eternal in the heavens.

They said Jesus had a devil because they heard (in Jesus words) that which was echoed in the garden of the Serpent (after the tree of knowledge of good and evil) which was "Surely you will NOT DIE" (the serpent speaking contrary to God) Who said indeed "Thou shalt surely DIE". When Jesus is saying if you keep my saying you shall never see death (its not after THAT TREE) but THE OTHER "Tree of life" (which they could not discern) as its THAT one LIVES FOR EVER

Death had already passed on all men, as all WERE DEAD (after a spiritual truth) as He said of men YE are AS GRAVES and this body as Paul said is "the Body OF DEATH"

John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though HE **WERE** dead, yet shall he live

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

THE BODY without the Spirit IS DEAD (after a carnal truth) as shown elsewhere SHE who LIVETH in pleasure IS DEAD (even while SHE LIVETH) after a spiritual truth

Depends on which truth (carnal or spiritual)

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Ephes 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

The LIGHT is the LIFE of men

John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he **WERE** dead, yet shall he live


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Fireinfolding said:

Well isnt Jesus Greater then Abraham? What exactly are you pointing out?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Didnt Jesus say God is the God of the living (even as it pertained to Abraham) THEY called dead (after the flesh and after a carnal truth)?

THEY said of JESUS you have A DEVIL for saying what He said ( which was "ye shall never see death") but you appear to be validating THEIR WORDS over HIS here... do you believe their words were correct and Jesus words incorrect here?

The outward man indeed perishes but the inward man is renewed. When this earthly tabernacle IS DISSOLVED doesnt it say WE HAVE a building from God eternal in the heavens.

They said Jesus had a devil because they heard (in Jesus words) that which was echoed in the garden of the Serpent (after the tree of knowledge of good and evil) which was "Surely you will NOT DIE" (the serpent speaking contrary to God) Who said indeed "Thou shalt surely DIE". When Jesus is saying if you keep my saying you shall never see death (its not after THAT TREE) but THE OTHER "Tree of life" (which they could not discern) as its THAT one LIVES FOR EVER

Death had already passed on all men, as all WERE DEAD (after a spiritual truth) as He said of men YE are AS GRAVES and this body as Paul said is "the Body OF DEATH"

John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though HE **WERE** dead, yet shall he live

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

THE BODY without the Spirit IS DEAD (after a carnal truth) as shown elsewhere SHE who LIVETH in pleasure IS DEAD (even while SHE LIVETH) after a spiritual truth

Depends on which truth (carnal or spiritual)

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Ephes 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

The LIGHT is the LIFE of men

John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he **WERE** dead, yet shall he live


John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Click to expand...

OK, thou hast spoken.


Peace

Men are dead (after a spiritual truth) there are some shown as TWICEDEAD as it pertains to their fruit (not abiding in The Vine, Jesus Christ= THE LIFE) whereof comes their fruit (unto the life that now is). Trees whose FRUIT withereth TWICEDEAD.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Interesting that "men gather them" and its they which cast them into the fire and are burned though huh? Sounds like this a bit...

Ezek 21:31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

Also interesting one can be burned and not know it

Isaiah 42:32 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

judah israel said:

(1Sam.28:13-14) (v.13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. gods spelled with a small g denotes pagan gods or satan and his angels.

(v.14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

It said that Saul perceived that it was Samuel, Saul was so desperate for an answer from God that he saw what He perceived was Samuel.

Click to expand...

So "perceived" means "deceived" to you? The word in Hebrew is "ya&#770;da&#8219;" and it means "to know" (by seeing). It doesn't say that Saul was deceived into think that he was seeing Samuel but was deceived, does it? So you have to read that into the verse because of you beliefs about "the dead", no?

How could Samuel possible be talking when, (Ecl.9: 5) (v. 5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

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The same is said of those who are actually alive physically:So what does the fact that we can see that "a corpse" (a dead body) "knows nothing" and "can do not work" reveal to us about that which is not seen as it pertains to those who are "dead" while they "live"?

Isn't that which is seen (temporal) given to us so that we can see that which is not seen (eternal) and aren't we supposed to be looking upon that which is not seen, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, in order to rightly divide the word of truth and come to an understanding of spiritual truths?

(v.10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

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Again, the same is said of those who are physically alive, who walk in darkness (THE NIGHT - wherein those who are dead - asleep, after a spiritual truth, SLEEP):

(Psalm146:3-4) (v.3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. (v.4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Click to expand...

Which means something quite different when comparing spiritual things to spiritual, no?

(Psalm:30:9) What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth.

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Do "the dead" praise God? How can they when they don't even know Him?

(John:10:27-28) is referring to the second death, we know that it is appointed to all men to die. And if we don’t live to the seconding coming of the Lord we all will do just that.

Click to expand...

Not sure what you are saying here. Jesus is talking about those (in the world) who hear his voice and follow Him.

Everything points to eternal life, that’s what this journey in this flesh is all about, the second life.

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Those who believe HAVE eternal life, they do not wait to die to receive it, so I do not know what you mean by "second life" when there is only ONE LIFE (found in Christ). Apart from HIM we are "dead" (there is "no life" in us).

When you die all of you are dead and the only thing that returns to God is the breath of life.

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Why do you think that Paul turned a man over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that THE SPIRIT might saved in the day of the Lord? What "spirit" needs to be saved? Surely not "the breath of life" right?

It is God's spirit (breath OF LIFE) that gives us LIFE here and now even as our spirit is quickened by the spirit of God that dwells in us. Apart from that "breath of life" we ARE DEAD (even while we live) which is why it takes HIS SPIRIT to make us A LIVING SOUL (as appose to the soul that sinneth, which IS DEAD, after a spiritual truth, even while it lives, after a natural truth).

God takes away HIS SPIRIT (LIFE) and we DIE (even while we live)... which is why THE SOUL (MAN) that sinneth IT SHALL DIE.

It is SIN (when it is finished) that brings forth DEATH.

It has nothing to do with corpses in physical graves, though that is what is given for us to "see" so that we can "see" that which is "not seen".

It is "the body of this death" that Paul wanted to be redeemed from. Because it is "full of dead men's bones" and it's THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and it's TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set on fire of hell".

Peace.

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Peace!

judah israel said:

There were a many people that kept Jesus' saying and they all saw death. This is referring to the second death.


(John:8:51-53) (v.51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. (v.52) Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. It is quite obvious here that Jesus is referring to the second death.

(v.53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?



Peace

Click to expand...

Why is it "quite obvious here that Jesus is referring to the second death"? Because you agree with the Jews who didn't believe Jesus and even accused Him of "having a devil" because HE SAID: "If a man keep my sayings he shall never see death" and THEY SAID: "Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets"?

I can remember back to the time that I used to go around accusing others of "believing the serpent" because they believe what THE SERPENT SAID: "thou shalt not surely die" instead of what GOD SAID: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".

I even used to quote the same verses with regard to "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" and point out that "Abraham is dead" and "David is not ascended" and "no man hath ascended"... etc, etc.

I used to point out the same passages in Ecc about "the dead"... and their being "no work" (etc) in the grave.

But the problem with that is that I was only seeing who "the dead" are as it is reckoned according to the flesh (men) and not who "the dead" are as it is reckoned according to the spirit (God).

I could hear what Martha said: "I know that I shall see him again, in the resurrection at the last day".

And I could not hear that Jesus said: "I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I would repeat Martha's words about "the resurrection at the last day" and repeat the words of the Jews who said "Abraham is dead" and "David is not ascended" ............ and "now we know that thou hast a devil" ....

Because I would just completely skip over CHRIST'S WORDS!!! :o

Makes me wonder if I, too, would have accused Jesus Himself of "believing the serpent" who said "thou shalt not surely die".

Because, like the Jews, I did not realize that Jesus was speaking with regard to THE TREE OF LIFE (CHRIST) and the serpent was speaking about THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. :o

angelmom01 said:

Why is it "quite obvious here that Jesus is referring to the second death"? Because you agree with the Jews who didn't believe Jesus and even accused Him of "having a devil" because HE SAID: "If a man keep my sayings he shall never see death" and THEY SAID: "Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets"?

I can remember back to the time that I used to go around accusing others of "believing the serpent" because they believe what THE SERPENT SAID: "thou shalt not surely die" instead of what GOD SAID: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".

I even used to quote the same verses with regard to "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" and point out that "Abraham is dead" and "David is not ascended" and "no man hath ascended"... etc, etc.

I used to point out the same passages in Ecc about "the dead"... and their being "no work" (etc) in the grave.

But the problem with that is that I was only seeing who "the dead" are as it is reckoned according to the flesh (men) and not who "the dead" are as it is reckoned according to the spirit (God).

I could hear what Martha said: "I know that I shall see him again, in the resurrection at the last day".

And I could not hear that Jesus said: "I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I would repeat Martha's words about "the resurrection at the last day" and repeat the words of the Jews who said "Abraham is dead" and "David is not ascended" ............ and "now we know that thou hast a devil" ....

Because I would just completely skip over CHRIST'S WORDS!!! :o

Makes me wonder if I, too, would have accused Jesus Himself of "believing the serpent" who said "thou shalt not surely die".

Because, like the Jews, I did not realize that Jesus was speaking with regard to THE TREE OF LIFE (CHRIST) and the serpent was speaking about THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. :o

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Dont feel bad, when I recall the "false witnesses" speaking of which temple Jesus said to destroy I was sorta hearing THEM before Him (the shame of it all, I will never live that down)

I also USED TO quote Jobs freinds till it dawned on me that they DID NOT speak of God what was RIGHT as Job did

Shall I go on?

NatalieJan777 said:

My response in Blue:



Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

I honestly do not believe either of us knows the full truth of this matter.

Click to expand...

What does Job being before Christ mean?


Peace

judah israel said:

What does Job being before Christ mean?


Peace

Click to expand...

Christ the savior had not yet come.

Before Abraham he was as well

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

Mal 3:3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Job looked "forward" as did Abraham

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth

NatalieJan777 said:

Christ the savior had not yet come.

Click to expand...

Please explain.

Peace