Lost - Episode 6:15 (5/11/10) - Across the Sea

Thinker

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Regarding the time period: Jacob, MIB, and 'Mom', are all very light of skin, arguing for european ancestry. Europeans started large scale exploration of the world circa 1500 - 1600 AD...but: the other people on the island this time around mostly had much darker skin. No evidence of firearms, telescopes, or christianity at the settlement. The round dwellings, while similiar to Celtic dwellings from way back, pretty much went out of style by the time the age of exploration got underway.

The other alternative would be that this took place in Roman Republic/early Roman Empire times: that accounts for the races present, the lack of high technology, and the round dwellings. For a time, the Roman Empire had substantial influence over much of what is now the middle east; furthermore they are known to have sent the occasional expedition as far off as China - the last leg of such a voyage putting them in the pacific ocean. The Romans, along with the Greeks and the Celts integrated into their regime, would have been light skinned enough to account for Jacob, MIB, and 'Mom'. Also, while they didn't have firearms or telescopes, the ancient romans - or at least their greek subjects - did have reputations for being extremely clever - which did impress MIB somewhat. Likewise, (despite contemporary christians wishing otherwise) Christianity was not a significant factor in the Roman regime until later in its history; instead most of the more educated people tended towards what is now termed gnosticism, which is in accord with 'Moms' speech the first time she showed Jacob and MIB the 'Heart of the Island'.

One other detail, in ancient Roman times, 'Jacob' would have been not a general name, but a jewish one. Jacob and MIB's real mother might have been part of the jewish diaspora.

Hence...this story probably took place something on the order of 1900 - 2000 years ago. It could be set during the later roman empire, up to around AD 300, but after that christianity would have been difficult or impossible to ignore, and by AD 300 Rome had pretty much fallen out of touch with more distant parts of the world.

Question becomes, though: for how much time prior to that was 'Mom' the guardian. Light skinned, so Roman, Celtic, or Greek. Go back to say...400BC, and the Celts are nomadic wanderers and Rome is a corrupt petty kingdom. Greece, though was embarking upon an age of exploration then; circa 300 BC Alexander the Great conquored much of the known world clear to the borders of India before turning back. 'Mom' might have taken up residence (gone to the island from Greek controlled areas) in the immediate wake of that conquest. If she waited more than a few decades after Alexanders campaigns...well his empire broke up into warring factions in a hurry, making such a journey difficult or impossible.
 
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desmalia

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I agree. I'm not a language expert, but it did sound like Latin at the beginning. But then American English after that. It's too big a detail, and I don't think the writers would have ignored that just for the sake of viewers' comfort (not having to read subtitles for the whole show).
 
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USincognito

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The round dwellings, while similiar to Celtic dwellings from way back, pretty much went out of style by the time the age of exploration got underway.

I was thinking even earlier than that like Bronze or Iron age. Though I do have to admit MIB's magic dagger does have a Roman appearance. It looks like a short, tapered gladius or what I just learned is a pugio that grew slimmer and more like the magic dagger around - the 1st Century A.D.
Pugio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gladius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember back in season 1 the producers originally were not going to have subtitles for Jin and Sun. I'm glad they changed their minds, but there have been a number of times when people were speaking languages other than English and they didn't use subtitles (first instance I can recall is the Portuguese speaking guys at Penny's monitoring station).

And I've shared this before but I still think it's funny. I saw an on-line comment from a woman with a Korean husband who said he was having trouble understanding Jin because Daniel Dae Kim's American accent was so heavy.
 
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nathanlandon1

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Regarding the time period: Jacob, MIB, and 'Mom', are all very light of skin, arguing for european ancestry. Europeans started large scale exploration of the world circa 1500 - 1600 AD...but: the other people on the island this time around mostly had much darker skin. No evidence of firearms, telescopes, or christianity at the settlement. The round dwellings, while similiar to Celtic dwellings from way back, pretty much went out of style by the time the age of exploration got underway.

The other alternative would be that this took place in Roman Republic/early Roman Empire times: that accounts for the races present, the lack of high technology, and the round dwellings. For a time, the Roman Empire had substantial influence over much of what is now the middle east; furthermore they are known to have sent the occasional expedition as far off as China - the last leg of such a voyage putting them in the pacific ocean. The Romans, along with the Greeks and the Celts integrated into their regime, would have been light skinned enough to account for Jacob, MIB, and 'Mom'. Also, while they didn't have firearms or telescopes, the ancient romans - or at least their greek subjects - did have reputations for being extremely clever - which did impress MIB somewhat. Likewise, (despite contemporary christians wishing otherwise) Christianity was not a significant factor in the Roman regime until later in its history; instead most of the more educated people tended towards what is now termed gnosticism, which is in accord with 'Moms' speech the first time she showed Jacob and MIB the 'Heart of the Island'.

One other detail, in ancient Roman times, 'Jacob' would have been not a general name, but a jewish one. Jacob and MIB's real mother might have been part of the jewish diaspora.

Hence...this story probably took place something on the order of 1900 - 2000 years ago. It could be set during the later roman empire, up to around AD 300, but after that christianity would have been difficult or impossible to ignore, and by AD 300 Rome had pretty much fallen out of touch with more distant parts of the world.

Question becomes, though: for how much time prior to that was 'Mom' the guardian. Light skinned, so Roman, Celtic, or Greek. Go back to say...400BC, and the Celts are nomadic wanderers and Rome is a corrupt petty kingdom. Greece, though was embarking upon an age of exploration then; circa 300 BC Alexander the Great conquored much of the known world clear to the borders of India before turning back. 'Mom' might have taken up residence (gone to the island from Greek controlled areas) in the immediate wake of that conquest. If she waited more than a few decades after Alexanders campaigns...well his empire broke up into warring factions in a hurry, making such a journey difficult or impossible.

The story of Jacob, MIB/Smokey and "Mom" took place circa 23 AD.
 
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Thinker

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Thinker...that is quite a post! Full of history...is it your area of knowledge?

Wasn't "real mom" speaking Spanish and fake mom speaking...Latin? We know the Others were big on speaking Latin.

History is something I study, though I am far from an expert at it.

Not sure what languages they were speaking at the start. (Something I'd like to know, as it would narrow it down). Latin...yes, that would confirm the 'ancient Roman' time period and explain why the Others speak latin.

The story of Jacob, MIB/Smokey and "Mom" took place circa 23 AD.

Any particular reason for picking this date? (Somehow, I expect a 'life of Christ' crossover. Should point out, though, that for the first 150 - 200 years of its existence, christianity was a very minor factor in Rome - simply not worthy of mention by most people.)
 
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nathanlandon1

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History is something I study, though I am far from an expert at it.

Not sure what languages they were speaking at the start. (Something I'd like to know, as it would narrow it down). Latin...yes, that would confirm the 'ancient Roman' time period and explain why the Others speak latin.



Any particular reason for picking this date? (Somehow, I expect a 'life of Christ' crossover. Should point out, though, that for the first 150 - 200 years of its existence, christianity was a very minor factor in Rome - simply not worthy of mention by most people.)

Easy easy!! Despite the painfully obvious Christianity "references," this isn't a Christian show, nor is it a show about Christ's life. I am positive Jacob is a type of Anubis, and Smokey is a type of Cerebus. Don't forget the deep Egyptian allusions in this show (such as the Taweret, and especially the ones people like to equate to Christ, such as Osiris battling himself/father in Hell to rise out with the sun.)

I actually got the date from the producer's press release lol.
 
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suzybeezy

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just finnished reading an article in Entertainment Weekly and I'll pull some snippets of what was said - as i found it really interesting.

Lost has resolved this profoundly tricky and politically thorny argument by ruling decidedly in favor of faith. Season 6 has presented a metaphor for a culture of lost souls desperate for salvation, renewal and yes answers.

"Spiritually speaking its a fantastic message and not something you see very often on a televsion show," says Cusick (desmond). "Love as a subject - as a spiritual concept. People don't want to talk about that. People think it's a letty cheesy. But it's not cheesy at all. That's what we all strive for. Right?"

Cuse (showrunner) says Lost is not about advocating a specific religion but rather explorign issues central to all faiths: Community. Redemption. damnation.

"If season 5 was the season where we said we had no shame in admitting we are a science-fiction show," says Lindelof, "season 6 is the season where we said we have no shame in admitting that we're intensely spiritual people, and Lost is ultimately a deeply spiritual show."
 
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Mensch

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I've just re-watched "Lost," and it struck me, in particular, how this episode tracks the story of "Lilith," which derives from Jewish lore (but which was not translated over into Christian belief).

From Wikipedia:

"In Jewish Folklore, Lilith is the name of Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. She left Adam after she refused to become subservient to Adam and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael. Her story was greatly developed, during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggradic Mishradishm the Zohar and Jewish Mysticism. The resulting Lilith legend is still commonly used as source material in modern culture, literature, occultism, fantasy and horror.

An alternative story links Lilith with the creation of luminaries. The "first light," which is the light of Mercy (one of the Sefirot), appeared on the first day of creation when God said "Let there be light." This light became hidden and the Holiness became surrounded by a husk of evil. ”A husk (klippa) was created around the brain" and this husk spread and brought out another husk, which was Lilith."

"The marriage of Samael and Lilith is known as the "Angel Satan" or the "Other God," but it was not allowed to last. To prevent Lilith and Samael's demonic children Lilin from filling the world, God castrated Samael. "

"The second myth of Lilith grew to include legends about another world and by some accounts this other world existed side by side with this one, Yenne Velt is Yiddish for this described "Other World"...Many disasters were blamed on both of them, causing wine to turn into vinegar, men to be impotent, women unable to give birth, and it was Lilith who was blamed for the loss of infant life. "

So, we know that, according to legend, Lilith was in exile from the Garden of Eden; by some accounts, she was chased by Angels to the "middle of the sea," was associated with the creation (and perhaps protection?) of hidden light (luminaries); and couldn't bear children of her own (so, perhaps, had to steal the babies of others). She was commonly associated with having demonic powers and sorcery, and some stories tell of her existing in parrallell dimensions. Additionally, her very presence renders men impotent and "women unable to give birth." Hence, the infertility of women on the island.

I think the mythology surrounding Lilith explains alot re: this episode, and is admirable re-working of an ancient myth into modern pop culture. Plus, J.J. Abrams is Jewish, so would probably be well acquainted with this myth. Another reason why I love this series!
 
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