Can God use illness for the good of His will?

JimfromOhio said:

Can't you stay on the topic without being sarcastic?

Here's my answer:

Ecclesiastes 7:14
When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future.

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These are the words of a fallen preacher... I am always amazed that people, even believers will quote this book as if it were God speaking. It is not. It is a composite commentary on all the things we should NOT think and believe. It is the worst of the worst of religious and philosophical ideas, and it is being touted by believers as something we should follow.
You folks really need to go to Bible College, or at least read up a bit.

didaskalos said:

These are the words of a fallen preacher... I am always amazed that people, even believers will quote this book as if it were God speaking. It is not. It is a composite commentary on all the things we should NOT think and believe. It is the worst of the worst of religious and philosophical ideas, and it is being touted by believers as something we should follow.
You folks really need to go to Bible College, or at least read up a bit.

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amazing isn't it? I went to one year of Bible school, and I KNOW this isn't good theology.

Ecclesiastes

Words of the (backslidden) Preacher


The Words of the Preacher

These are "the words of the preacher," not the words of God; and this is how it should be understood, except that we must recognize that Solomon was a backslidden preacher when this book was written.

These words are the reasonings, searchings, and findings of a natural man "under the sun," a natural man seeking to satisfy his soul.



Ten Evidences of Backsliding:


1. His attitude toward creation and human life, everything on earth being considered vain, empty, and extremely vexing.

(1) The term "vanity of vanities" is used 3 times (Eccles. 1:2; Eccles. 12:8).

(2) "Vanity and vexation of spirit" is used 7 times (Eccles. 1:14; Eccles. 2:11,17,26; Eccles. 4:4,16; Eccles. 6:9).

(3) "All is vanity" is used 5 times (Eccles. 1:2,14; Eccles. 2:17; Eccles. 3:19; Eccles. 12:8).

(4) "Divers vanities" is used once (Eccles. 5:7).
(5) "This is also vanity" is used 13 times (Eccles. 2:1,15,19,21,23; Eccles. 4:4,8; Eccles. 5:10; Eccles. 6:2,9; Eccles. 7:6; Eccles. 8:10,14).(6) Vanity is used 8 times in various ways (Eccles. 4:7; Eccles. 6:4,11; Eccles. 7:15; Eccles. 8:14; Eccles. 9:9; Eccles. 11:8,10). Life itself was considered vanity.

(7) The words vanity and vanities are used 37 times throughout this short book, compared to 62 times in all the other books of the Bible. See Thirty Things Considered Vanity.


2. His reasonings "under the sun" prove he was not speaking as an inspired preacher in harmony with God.
The expression "under the sun" is used 29 times. No inspired preacher or prophet of God in any other book so reasons about things under the sun as Solomon. This must have been the period of his life after his wives had turned his heart away from Jehovah (1 Kings 11:1-10). He had 1,000 women in all—700 wives and 300 concubines. His reference to them in Eccles. 7:26-28 seems to indicate this as the time of his backsliding. He declared he had considered one by one and had not found a true woman—one who was pure and free from seductive traits, whereas, he had found one man among all his trusted servants. Compare this natural reasoning under the sun with the true teachings of a preacher who was not backslidden in heart (Matthew 6:25-34; Col. 3:1-4).


3. His general dissatisfaction with life (Eccles. 1:8; Eccles. 4:8) indicates a backslidden heart.
A true man of God will be satisfied and contented (Psalm 22:26; Psalm 36:8; Phil. 4:11; Hebrews 13:5).


4. What he gave his heart over to during this time proves it was not right:

(1) He gave his heart to seek and search things done under the sun instead of devoting himself to the conversion of men to things above the sun; i.e., heavenly things (Eccles. 1:13)

(2) He gave his heart over to know madness and folly, something no true sincere preacher would do (Eccles. 1:17)

(3) He gave his heart over to wine, folly, mirth and pleasure without restraint (Eccles. 2:1-3)

(4) He fulfilled all his lusts and passions, not withholding his heart from any kind of joy and pleasure (Eccles. 2:10)
(5) He deliberately caused his heart to despair (Eccles. 2:20)

(6) He gave his heart to know the wickedness of folly, and the foolishness of madness (Eccles. 7:25)

5. His self-exaltation proves that his heart was not right (Eccles. 1:16; Eccles. 2:4-9).
Solomon constantly referred to himself, using "I" 87 times, "me" 17 times, "my" 22 times, "myself" 4 times, and "mine" 9 times in 222 verses, as compared to the writing of John, the beloved preacher of the N.T., who used none of these personal pronouns in his entire Gospel of 879 verses.

6. Being surprised that his wisdom still remained in him while his heart was in this condition indicates that he was not right (Eccles. 2:9).


7. His hatred of life shows that he had no peace with God (Eccles. 2:17). He actually praised the dead as being better off than the living (Eccles. 4:2-3).


8. His selfishness—worrying about leaving his works to others after his death proves he was not right in heart and had no love for others (Eccles. 2:18-19).


9. He advocated four wrong principles concerning sin and principles of living, which no preacher in harmony with God will do:
(1) Enjoy mirth, pleasure and wine-drinking and drunkenness (Eccles. 2:1-3; Eccles. 9:7)

(2) Nothing better in life than to eat, drink, be merry (Eccles. 2:24-25; Eccles. 8:15)
(3) Nothing better for a man than to rejoice in his own works (Eccles. 3:22)
(4) Money answers all things (Eccles. 10:19)


10. He taught several false doctrines which he no doubt would not have taught had he been normal in his spiritual life:

(1) All things in life are vanity and vexation of spirit.
(2) No new thing under the sun (Eccles. 1:9-10; Eccles. 3:15). Because Solomon said this, some think that nothing whatsoever can be invented which did not exist in the past; but Daniel predicted an increase of knowledge and this would indicate many new things (Daniel 12:4).
(3) No former things remembered (Eccles. 1:11). All things, good and bad, will be remembered and everyone will be judged for them (2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rev. 20:11-15).

(4) Crooked things cannot be made straight (Eccles. 1:15; Eccles. 7:13). Not only is it possible to make things straight, but this has been done in all ages, both regarding material things and crooked ways of life. See Isaiah 40:4; Isaiah 42:16; Isaiah 45:2; Luke 3:5.

(5) Increasing knowledge increases sorrow (Eccles. 1:18). This is true when knowledge is used in a wrong way as Solomon used his at various times in this book. When he used it in the right way it increased joy and brought rewards; even Solomon himself recognized this (Proverbs 1:5; Proverbs 9:9). The N.T. encourages an increase in knowledge (2 Peter 1:1-10; 2 Peter 3:18).
(6) No remembrance of the wise more than of the fool, and the past will be forgotten (Eccles. 1:11; Eccles. 2:16). See statements to the contrary (Psalm 112:6; Malachi 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rev. 20:11-15).

(7) The day of death is better than the day of birth (Eccles. 7:1). This is not true of the wicked (Matthew 26:24; Luke 16:19-31; Isaiah 14:9).

(8) No just man upon the earth—one that does good and does not sin (Eccles. 7:20). This is contradicted by Romans 5:1-11; Romans 6:14-23; Romans 8:1-13; 2 Cor. 5:17-21;10:4-5; Titus 2:11-13; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 1 John 1:7-9; 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:5-10; 1 John 4:1-4,18.

From Dakes "Gods Plan for Man"

disciple-ofjesus said:

apparently, it is easier to believe God is a big bad meany in the sky. The Word says, HE came to give us LIFE. HOW In the world can that be interpreted as He wants to inflict us with sickness? The devil come to steal, kill and destroy. SO sad to think that folks think of God this way.

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God is a great parent, DOJ, but He is not as indulgent as some people seem to think being a “good” parent requires. God actually disciplines His children and, apparently (if you actually read the scriptures I have taken the time, several times, to post), He does it with sickness and/or with anything else that will capture our attention. God knows what we can tolerate and what we can’t and will not place on us anything we cannot bear and, when we think we can’t, He always provide a way of escape, or as the Message has 1 Cor. 10.13, God will never let you down; he'll never let you be pushed past your limit; he'll always be there to help you come through it.

If God is a “meany” as you like to characterize it or likes to “inflict” us rather than discipline us (and I have to wonder from which booklet or televangelist these sarcastic, and juvenile, mischaracterizations come from) then you need to re-read this:
God’s discipline, no matter how He sends it, is sometimes painful (V.11, (and we nor our preferred theology, do not get to call the shots). That is a simple fact. He does not cause us pain because He is a “meany” or likes to “inflict” us but He knows and has tried to tell us …
~Jim

didaskalos said:

These are the words of a fallen preacher... I am always amazed that people, even believers will quote this book as if it were God speaking. It is not. It is a composite commentary on all the things we should NOT think and believe. It is the worst of the worst of religious and philosophical ideas, and it is being touted by believers as something we should follow.
You folks really need to go to Bible College, or at least read up a bit.

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Wisdom is where you find it, Dids, even if it is from the mouth/pen of a “fallen preacher.” God seems to think it was wise enough to place it in His eternal Word.

Um, which "Bible college" did you go to?

~Jim

Of course God disciplines us. No one disagrees with that. What we disagree with is that God sends sickness to discipline us.

The message some people are conveying, whether they mean to or not, is that if someone is sick, they've somehow done something wrong and God is "punishing" them to "discipline" them.

That's simply not true, and people who are ill don't need that additional condemnation placed upon them.

probinson said:

Of course God disciplines us. No one disagrees with that. What we disagree with is that God sends sickness to discipline us.

The message some people are conveying, whether they mean to or not, is that if someone is sick, they've somehow done something wrong and God is "punishing" them to "discipline" them.

That's simply not true, and people who are ill don't need that additional condemnation placed upon them.

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This is where we will always disagree. Our beliefs should not be mocked though.

didaskalos said:

These are the words of a fallen preacher... I am always amazed that people, even believers will quote this book as if it were God speaking. It is not. It is a composite commentary on all the things we should NOT think and believe. It is the worst of the worst of religious and philosophical ideas, and it is being touted by believers as something we should follow.
You folks really need to go to Bible College, or at least read up a bit.

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Speak for yourself.

A person may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant. Thinking theologically is a tough thing to do. There is head knowledge, head and heart and just heart knowledge. In knowing God (not just about Him) the heart must be involved. Head knowledge comes from the pages of a theology text. We cannot say a particular Church/denomination's theology is truth because the Bible is truth while doctrines are taught by man. We are a Christian FIRST. Secondary is the doctrines we rely on based on the Holy Spirit's conviction. We are not a perfect Christian but we are forgiven Christians who are still learning.

disciple-ofjesus said:

amazing isn't it? I went to one year of Bible school, and I KNOW this isn't good theology.

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I studied theology for years and I am still learning.

probinson said:

Of course God disciplines us. No one disagrees with that. What we disagree with is that God sends sickness to discipline us.

The message some people are conveying, whether they mean to or not, is that if someone is sick, they've somehow done something wrong and God is "punishing" them to "discipline" them.

That's simply not true, and people who are ill don't need that additional condemnation placed upon them.

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EXACTLY. Now, I went and had a shower, and I was pondering this "believe" that God inflicts illness. I got to wondering...IF I wasn't saved, and I was reading this, I would be like..."why in the WORLD would I want to serve a God that isn't any different than the "world" I am in now. I am already sick (or whatever), so what does this God have to offer me?"...what I heard the Lord speak to my heart is NOTHING. I would have nothing to offer them. They would be no better off Getting "saved" than staying in the world, cause what would they be getting saved from? From one sickness to more? WHAT kind of God is that? There is NO hope. I also heard him say, this preaching is NOT from Him. He is a God of hope, healing, justice and alot of other words. Would I preach a 'rosy' gospel? NO. Cause there are hardships, there are things we walk through. BUT God offers hope through all that. Saying He inflicts illness to teach them something is NO HOPE AT ALL. Nothing different than the world.

JimfromOhio said:

I studied theology for years and I am still learning.

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GOOD for you...I am glad you are learning more. I hope God opens your eyes to the truth. Everyone is (or at least should be) still learning. I know I am. But I know what God spoke to my heart this morning. I know His voice well, and well...I will stick with what He spoke to me.

probinson said:

Of course God disciplines us. No one disagrees with that. What we disagree with is that God sends sickness to discipline us.

The message some people are conveying, whether they mean to or not, is that if someone is sick, they've somehow done something wrong and God is "punishing" them to "discipline" them.

That's simply not true, and people who are ill don't need that additional condemnation placed upon them.

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But you, or your theology, does not get to call the shots, Pete, the clay does not have the right to correct the potter, nor do you get to tell God what measures He uses to discipline us. He knows our frame (Psalm 103.14) and He knows what we can or cannot endure and will not place on us anything we cannot bear (1 Cor. 10.13.)

God disciplines and chastises (“scourges,” NKJV) us because He loves us (Heb. 12.6) and sometimes it is painful (Heb. 12.11), not because He is a “meany” or a sadist who likes to “inflict” us (and I would be careful in characterizing God in that manner), but He is more interested in our eternal development than He is in our immediate comforts (2 Cor. 4.17).

There are some things more important than the welfare of our temporary physical bodies.

And maybe the "condemnation" they feel stems from their misdirected view of God's purposes, even through an illness.

~Jim

disciple-ofjesus said:

EXACTLY. Now, I went and had a shower, and I was pondering this "believe" that God inflicts illness. I got to wondering...IF I wasn't saved, and I was reading this, I would be like..."why in the WORLD would I want to serve a God that isn't any different than the "world" I am in now. I am already sick (or whatever), so what does this God have to offer me?"...what I heard the Lord speak to my heart is NOTHING. I would have nothing to offer them. They would be no better off Getting "saved" than staying in the world, cause what would they be getting saved from? From one sickness to more? WHAT kind of God is that? There is NO hope. I also heard him say, this preaching is NOT from Him. He is a God of hope, healing, justice and alot of other words. Would I preach a 'rosy' gospel? NO. Cause there are hardships, there are things we walk through. BUT God offers hope through all that. Saying He inflicts illness to teach them something is NO HOPE AT ALL. Nothing different than the world.

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This is where we will disagree.

So if we are looking to get control of all our problems, forget Christianity. If we are looking for success, happiness, or freedom from pain, forget Christ. The way of Christ is the cross, and the cross spells weakness, poverty, failure, death. The bible never belittles disappointment, but it does add one key word: temporary. What we feel now, we will not always feel. Our disappointment is itself a sign, and aching, a hunger for something better.

"I had to be healed of my desire to be healed." Joni Eareckson Tada

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"If God is not in some sense responsible for bad things, then he is not responsible for good things either. If we do not "blame" God for death, we should not praise God for life. We cannot have it both ways." Joseph Hill

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disciple-ofjesus said:

GOOD for you...I am glad you are learning more. I hope God opens your eyes to the truth. Everyone is (or at least should be) still learning. I know I am. But I know what God spoke to my heart this morning. I know His voice well, and well...I will stick with what He spoke to me.

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For about 40 years a Christian, I am learning every day to be careful how I read and need to look from doctrinal perspective rather than our own educational satisfaction. There are times that I deal with my own "theological bias". I was victimized because I grew up in a certain theological system and I become indoctrinated by what I have learned over the years that I have struggled by defending what I have learned and can't seem to let go of it.

JimB said:

But you, or your theology, does not get to call the shots, Pete, the clay does not have the right to correct the potter, nor do you get to tell God what measures He uses to discipline us. He knows our frame (Psalm 103.14) and He knows what we can or cannot endure and will not place on us anything we cannot bear (1 Cor. 10.13.)

God disciplines and chastises (“scourges,” NKJV) us because He loves us (Heb. 12.6) and sometimes it is painful (Heb. 12.11), not because He is a “meany” or a sadist who likes to “inflict” us (and I would be careful in characterizing God in that manner), but He is more interested in our eternal development than He is in our immediate comforts (2 Cor. 4.17).

There are some things more important than the welfare of our temporary physical bodies.

And maybe the "condemnation" they feel stems from their misdirected view of God's purposes, even through an illness.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2.13​

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The potter (God) is working with this soft, yielding clay (us). If this clay does not submit, the potter may not be able to do what we should do according to His will. The potter still could make anything except for useful and beautiful (spiritual fruitful) out of an unyielding blob of clay. If God is going to make those kinds of vessels out of clay (us), however, we are going to have to yield to the spiritual law of surrender.

As many wonderful things as Joni Tada has done, there is absolutely no scriptural support for this statement. At all.

Never once did Jesus tell someone who came to Him for healing, "You don't need healing. You need to be healed of your desire for healing."

Never once.

JimB said:

Wisdom is where you find it, Dids, even if it is from the mouth/pen of a “fallen preacher.” God seems to think it was wise enough to place it in His eternal Word.

Um, which "Bible college" did you go to?

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2.13​

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He also recorded in His word the words of Peter "I do not know Him."
I suppose we should quote those words as the will of God for us?
At some point common sense kicks in here. Where is the much touted "discernment" that we hear so much about?

Here is some good advice from the fallen preacher:

Ecc 8:15
(15) Then I commended mirth, because a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labour the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun.

or this one (especially for you WoF critics):

Ecc 10:19
(19) A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.



So the next time we have a discussion about money, I want you folks who follow Ecc to be ready to have this one quoted at you.


This is the guy who wrote the book. Since it was at the end of his life after he had been king, and since Ecc seems to be a summation of what we see here, I suspect the book was written at this time.

1Ki 11:1-11
(1) But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
(2) Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
(3) And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
(4) For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
(5) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
(6) And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
(7) Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
(8) And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
(9) And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
(10) And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
(11) Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

probinson said:

"I had to be healed of my desire to be healed." Joni Eareckson Tada
​

As many wonderful things as Joni Tada has done, there is absolutely no scriptural support for this statement. At all.

Never once did Jesus tell someone who came to Him for healing, "You don't need healing. You need to be healed of your desire for healing."

Never once.

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And there is no scriptural support that everyone will be healed before their death.

The cure for living wrongly is to live rightly..
You do not have to be sick to convince you to live rightly. That is the Holy Spirit's job. If you are sick because God is disciplining you, then it is because you did not listen to the Holy Spirit when He was convicting you of sin.

And we are supposed to consider this the path to wisdom???

JimfromOhio said:

And there is no scriptural support that everyone will be healed before their death.

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No, but there is scriptural support to show that every person that approached Jesus in faith for healing was healed.

They were not told, "You need to learn a lesson", or "I have something better for you", or "I'm not concerned with your temporal needs", or "I'm more concerned with your eternal development", or anything remotely similar.

They were told (quite often), "Your faith has healed you."