Some people will believe anything

he4rty · Mar 3, 2010

~RENEE~ said:
you do know this movie is Hollywoods mock of everything you and all Cristians believe in?

I must of seen a different film to you, Because I think its a great movie.
And I haven't noticed any mocking in it.

knownbeforetime · Mar 3, 2010

You know what I thought when I watched the video? That we need to be like little children when we approach God.

bobznew · Mar 4, 2010

I don't know much about what was going on there, as none of us do, because all we have to go on us just a YouTube clip. Just a snippet. We weren't there before hand, or afterwards, and we certainly don't know the hearts of the people there.

I do admit, the "Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey" sounds a very, very strange idea indeed. But I for one am not going to automatically discredit things like this just because they seem weird on the surface. Why? Because like it or not, we serve a God who has made it His business throughout history to use "weird" things to accomplish his purposes. Here's a few of the "weird things" that come to mind immediately...

-Rods turning into snakes
-Striking a rock to get water
-Talking to a rock to get water
-Commanding a prophet to marry a harlot
-Talking donkey
-Small boy killing the mightiest Philistine champion
-Handwriting on the wall
-Defeating the Midianite army with only 300 men
-Baby born of a virgin
-Finding a denarius in mouth of fish
-Using a clay/spit mixture to heal blind man
-Feeding thousands with a few fish and loaves

These are just a few off the top of my head. There are so, so many more instances of God using strange people, strange situations, etc., to accomplish His holy purpose.

Is there a chance that the whole "Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey" thing is a manmade thing, that has nothing to do with the work of the Holy Spirit? Sure there is. But I think we need to be careful judging things by a surface appearance only, without giving consideration to the nature of the God we serve. God does not think inside the box like we do. And He delights in confounding man in his own wisdom.

We should keep this in mind before automatically casting doubt on an event, particularly when the only bit of information we have on it is a simple YouTube clip.

gratefulgrace · Mar 4, 2010

I don't know that is a pretty groovy version of the hokey pokey.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

JimB said:
A bit soulish but, hey, I like it! It sounds more like a Christian concert with a reggae beati.e., entertainmentthan a worship service, much less one like the disgusting hokey pokey healing service (the emphasis for that sad display being the word hokey.)

As an old concert promoter, I really like this video. I did not care for, in fact I was offended by the hokey one.

Oh, yeah, glad you liked it. I picked it out because after watching the OP video I thought they looked pretty peculiar, and humerous as well. Whether they are discerning the Spirit correctly I have no way of knowing by just watching that video.

(KJV)
Titus 2:12, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Ok, I get that, I think. In the NIV though, the word the KJV uses "soberly", is translated as "self-controlled". In contect I believe it is speaking about not sinning and doing the things you used to do when we were yet sinners. And I think in Titus 3:2-3 Paul reiterates and expounds on that thought.

2:14-15, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if we're not peculiar in the eyes of the world for not only believing what we believe but in how we act, then we should change what we believe or in how we act. Am I saying so that means we have to do the hokey pokey? no. I mean that what we believe is that Jesus gave us freedom, not only from our sins but from religion, from the rules of this world, from the bondage of sin. What should be peculiar about us is that we rejoice, and we will always rejoice in the fact that we are free because of Jesus.

The world really is about religion, we are not.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

probinson said:
I'm not sure where the "chaos" and "disorder" is in that video clip, though. When did doing the hokey pokey become a "chaotic", "disorderly" thing?

This is a prime example of what we were talking about a few weeks ago in the debate sub-forum regarding "order" in church services. You're lobbing these verses out there because you clearly disagree with what they did, but not really because the service was "disorderly".

If it was time for them to break out and do the Hokey Pokey, then it was in order, but if they broke out doing the Hokey Pokey when it was not time to do the Hokey Pokey, then it was disorderly. Of course, it's the pastor of the church who should decide when the right time is or isn't.

This is a fun thread!

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

probinson said:
That's my point.

I don't know if these people were just doing the hokey pokey to do something, or if they were really listening to what God told them to do. But it is not beyond my realm of comprehension that God may very well tell someone to do the hokey pokey.

As such, I am not quick to dismiss and/or mock that which I do not fully understand, or that which seems "weird" to me.

Why does the question of whether God would tell people to do the Hokey Pokey or not even have to be asked? To me, asking that question, or bringing that up, is diverting the fact that we all have the freedom to worship God in Spirit and in truth. That this is a matter of the heart. Bringing up whether God told anybody to do the dance or not is also a way to get people to conform to religion, yah know? Like saying, those people aren't following the rules! How dare them!!

SpiritPsalmist · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Why does the question of whether God would tell people to do the Hokey Pokey or not even have to be asked? To me, asking that question, or bringing that up, is diverting the fact that we all have the freedom to worship God in Spirit and in truth. That this is a matter of the heart. Bringing up whether God told anybody to do the dance or not is also a way to get people to conform to religion, yah know? Like saying, those people aren't following the rules! How dare them!!

That's true

All throughout scripture we are told just to "rejoice". Nowhere does scripture define for us what rejoicing looks like or sounds like. Often in scripture we see it written as "rejoiced greatly"....hmmm, I wonder how that looked and sounded? When we see it demonstrated in scripture it seems to be loud and raucous and heard by everyone around for miles. (See 1 Kings 1:39-40)

How we rejoice and praise God is left to us...however we choose. The rules that many try to bind others with are made up by man, not GOD. What better thing for the flesh to do than to rejoice greatly out of love for God!

SpiritPsalmist · Mar 4, 2010

gratefulgrace said:
I don't know that is a pretty groovy version of the hokey pokey.

Yeah I liked it too. For goodness sake it's just a song. A song during the song service.

AudioArtist · Mar 4, 2010

I suppose people like their Church services to be a buttoned-up affairs, even though there's no Biblical precedent for that kind of worship or celebratory behaviour. (And this coming from someone who is extremely shy in worship: in fact, I'm ashamed to say I'm too nervous to even out my hands out or up in the air 99% of the time. I can manage singing, but not clapping.) But that's ok. God looks at the heart - and some of us are more inclined to a quieter sort of expression.

I do think, though, that if the scenes of worship and praise from the Old Testament were put on youtube (or the New), they would offend many. As would any of the miracles in Acts (the handkerchiefs, the shadows, the disciples on pentecost...)

Or imagine this scene on youtube:

2 Chronicles 5: Then the temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

It wouldn't really capture the glory of the event, would it? You can only really judge if you are there.

To be honest, though, I didn't actually watch the clip in the O.P. I just don't see the point in seeking out these little youtube snippets and getting very cross about them. I don't see how what happens in these threads has anything to do with true discernment or what it has to do with loving and warning the saints.

JimB · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
I suppose people like their Church services to be a buttoned-up affairs, even though there's no Biblical precedent for that kind of worship or celebratory behaviour. (And this coming from someone who is extremely shy in worship: in fact, I'm ashamed to say I'm too nervous to even out my hands out or up in the air 99% of the time. I can manage singing, but not clapping.) But that's ok. God looks at the heart - and some of us are more inclined to a quieter sort of expression.

I do think, though, that if the scenes of worship and praise from the Old Testament were put on youtube (or the New), they would offend many. As would any of the miracles in Acts (the handkerchiefs, the shadows, the disciples on pentecost...)

Or imagine this scene on youtube:

2 Chronicles 5: Then the temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

It wouldn't really capture the glory of the event, would it? You can only really judge if you are there.

To be honest, though, I didn't actually watch the clip in the O.P. I just don't see the point in seeking out these little youtube snippets and getting very cross about them. I don't see how what happens in these threads has anything to do with true discernment or what it has to do with loving and warning the saints.

And where is the scripture that promotes a Sunday free for all?

Fact is, the only scriptures in the New Testament that talk about how we should conduct ourselves in a public gathering is 1 Corinthians 14 and it is the Apostles order that we (as you want to put it) button up our services. He ordered, for example
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints,

40 All things should be done decently and in order.
Thats pretty plain to any objective reader.

I dont know how you see an Old Testament worship service, but if you think it was mass pandemonium you probably have not read all the laws governing how religious ceremonies were to be conducted. They were a bit more orderly than you might be comfortable with.

And you might want to watch the "snippet" before you comment on it.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

AudioArtist · Mar 4, 2010

JimB said:
And where is the scripture that promotes a Sunday free for all?

Fact is, the only scriptures in the New Testament that talk about how we should conduct ourselves in a public gathering is 1 Corinthians 14 and it is the Apostle’s order that we (as you want to put it) “button up” our services. He ordered, for example …
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints,

40 All things should be done decently and in order.
That’s pretty plain to any objective reader.

I don’t know how you see an Old Testament worship service, but if you think it was mass pandemonium you probably have not read all the laws governing how religious ceremonies were to be conducted. They were a bit more orderly than you might be comfortable with.

And you might want to watch the "snippet" before you comment on it.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

I know those verses you are speaking of.

The overall witness of scripture - to me a least - seems to allow for different forms of worship and celebration for different seasons. Sometimes loud and full of dancing and demonstration, and sometimes quiet and reflective. Always humble. Sometimes the emphases can be on repentance and returning to God; and other times, God's victory and the joy we have in being part of that victory.

I don't think Paul's vision of control was quite as preset and ordered as many Churches I've been to, nor would it necessarily disallow some of the more expressive manifestations of God's power or expressions of worship in Church that people think it might. There is a the huge cultural difference, as you know, from how people would have seen 'orderly' then and how they might in, say, a Western reformed Church. I think that verse is, unfortunately for those of us trying to work all this stuff out, more 'subjective' than you think.

And you said, 'what you're comfortable with'. Let me tell you, I'm not just trying to confirm what I already want here! I'm trying to look at the overall witness of Scripture (as I'm sure you are.) I'm not a demonstrative worshipper by any means, nor have I been a vessel for many miracles at all, but that doesn't mean the Bible and Church history don't reveal a great need for displays of God's power and for for expressive, joyful worship. If I were arguing for what I want the services would be very, very quiet indeed. I don't like rock music, for a start. I like classical music. I stand there looking helpless when everyone starts clapping to a song. That comes with being very English, you know.

And, this isn't out of rudeness - but I won't watch the clip. If it is indeed embarrassing and clearly not of God, I'll just be annoyed with it and the state of the Church but, since I'm not in a position to correct those people or change the state of those believers, what's the point in that anger? It'll be of the flesh. And if I find the clip to be a bit strange, but possibly of God, I'll just be upset with people in the thread who are blasting it, which is equally useless.

JimB · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
I know those verses you are speaking of. The overall witness of scripture - to me a least - seems to allow for different forms of worship and celebration for different seasons. Sometimes loud and full of dancing and demonstration, and sometimes quiet and reflective. Always humble. Sometimes the emphases can be on repentance and returning to God; and other times, God's victory and the joy we have in being part of that victory.

I don't think Paul's vision of control was quite as preset and ordered as many Churches I've been to, nor would it necessarily disallow some of the more expressive manifestations of God's power or expressions of worship in Church that people think it might. There is a the huge cultural difference, as you know, from how people would have seen 'orderly' then and how they might in, say, a Western reformed Church. I think that verse is, unfortunately for those of us trying to work all this stuff out, more 'subjective' than you think.

And you said, 'what you're comfortable with'. Let me tell you, I'm not just trying to confirm what I already want here! I'm trying to look at the overall witness of Scripture (as I'm sure you are.) I'm not a demonstrative worshipper by any means, nor have I been a vessel for many miracles at all, but that doesn't mean the Bible and Church history don't reveal a great need for displays of God's power and for for expressive, joyful worship. If I were arguing for what I want the services would be very, very quiet indeed. I don't like rock music, for a start. I like classical music. I stand there looking helpless when everyone starts clapping to a song. That comes with being very English, you know.

And, this isn't out of rudeness - but I won't watch the clip. If it is indeed embarrassing and clearly not of God, I'll just be annoyed with it and the state of the Church but, since I'm not in a position to correct those people or change the state of those believers, what's the point in that anger? It'll be of the flesh. And if I find the clip to be a bit strange, but possibly of God, I'll just be upset with people in the thread who are blasting it, which is equally useless.

I understand your reluctance to view the clip, but it is part of the belief systems of some in this SF/PC fellowship you have chosen to be a part of. When a tumor grows on your body is it wise to ignore it? Remember, Paul said that a little leaven can eventually leaven the whole lump.

BTW, it is too much idiotic stuff such as is shown in the video that has made me ashamed to identify myself as a Charismatic anymore. When people ask me what I am I now tell them I am an Empowered Evangelical, a term coined by Rich Nathan and Ken Wilson.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
I know those verses you are speaking of. The overall witness of scripture - to me a least - seems to allow for different forms of worship and celebration for different seasons. Sometimes loud and full of dancing and demonstration, and sometimes quiet and reflective. Always humble. Sometimes the emphases can be on repentance and returning to God; and other times, God's victory and the joy we have in being part of that victory.

Very well said

I don't think Paul's vision of control was quite as preset and ordered as many Churches I've been to, nor would it necessarily disallow some of the more expressive manifestations of God's power or expressions of worship in Church that people think it might. There is a the huge cultural difference, as you know, from how people would have seen 'orderly' then and how they might in, say, a Western reformed Church. I think that verse is, unfortunately for those of us trying to work all this stuff out, more 'subjective' than you think.

And you said, 'what you're comfortable with'. Let me tell you, I'm not just trying to confirm what I already want here! I'm trying to look at the overall witness of Scripture (as I'm sure you are.) I'm not a demonstrative worshipper by any means, nor have I been a vessel for many miracles at all, but that doesn't mean the Bible and Church history don't reveal a great need for displays of God's power and for for expressive, joyful worship. If I were arguing for what I want the services would be very, very quiet indeed. I don't like rock music, for a start. I like classical music. I stand there looking helpless when everyone starts clapping to a song. That comes with being very English, you know.

Even better! You are so right in what Paul said as being subjective. I'm an ex-catholic and what amuses me sometimes with my fellow Protestants and charismatics is how they'll blast each other on their forms of worship and bring up 1 Cor. 14 and order etc., but it seems they fail to realise that even more people are saying the samething about the very church they are in. There are millions of people who would never step foot in their church because of the percieved disorder and indecency that they propose is completely appropriate and biblically in order.

I hadn't gone to mass in like 30 years, however 3 weeks ago I went to my old parish where I grew up and sat in. I had noticed a few things that they do differently now so I made a thread in the OBOB forum here to talk about it. I was saying how I saw people during the Lords prayer holding each others hands and some were even raising their hands while saying the prayer. Well, that wasn't a custom when I was young and still Catholic and I was commenting on how I thought that was good to see. Well a few of the Catholics over there told me how that shouldn't have been allowed, with one guy telling me I should have told the Priest after mass was over that he was out of order to allow people to raise their hands during mass! I'm like right, an ex-Catholic that hasn't been to mass in 30 years is going to tell a Priest that he is out of order. ^_^

I was a little shocked by this but it did cause a bit of a debate amongst the Catholics in the thread where they argued a bit over what was appropriate and what wasn't. And I'm thinking to myself, gee, they should come to the SF/C forum and see what we argue about what is in order or out.

Sometimes here at CF you just have to burst out laughing at what you read here.

But because of my Catholic upbringing I'm pretty much just like you Audio. During my churches worship service I don't always raise my hands, as a Catholic I was taught to fold my hands, anything else was considered disorderly and not respectful or humble. So yeah, most of the time I keep my hands folded in prayer. However I absolutely love christian rock music, to bad my church is small and all we have is a keyboardest who mostly plays slow worship songs that usually get me to cry than to shout and rejoice, although, again, I just don't think I would do that, but that's just how I was raised.

And, this isn't out of rudeness - but I won't watch the clip. If it is indeed embarrassing and clearly not of God, I'll just be annoyed with it and the state of the Church but, since I'm not in a position to correct those people or change the state of those believers, what's the point in that anger? It'll be of the flesh. And if I find the clip to be a bit strange, but possibly of God, I'll just be upset with people in the thread who are blasting it, which is equally useless.

Not viewing the video is probably a very wise thing not to do then. I absolutely loved your post though and am reppin it!!

AudioArtist · Mar 4, 2010

Thanks for the encouragement, nephilimiyr. It's interesting you brought up your Catholic past - because I was thinking of including that in my post, as I went to a very, very traditional Catholic School. My experience of the many school assemblies and masses we went to is pretty much the same as yours.

However, unfortunately perhaps, it hasn't changed at all: if anything, since I finished, it's become even more strict and traditional, and even more things might be deemed disorderly. I think they were thinking of reverting entirely to a pre Vatican II approach... Latin is cool and all, but none of us students knew what was going on half the time. We were all going through the motions.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

SpiritPsalmist said:
That's true

All throughout scripture we are told just to "rejoice". Nowhere does scripture define for us what rejoicing looks like or sounds like. Often in scripture we see it written as "rejoiced greatly"....hmmm, I wonder how that looked and sounded? When we see it demonstrated in scripture it seems to be loud and raucous and heard by everyone around for miles. (See 1 Kings 1:39-40)

How we rejoice and praise God is left to us...however we choose. The rules that many try to bind others with are made up by man, not GOD. What better thing for the flesh to do than to rejoice greatly out of love for God!

I'm reppin this post too, I'm actually a tiny bit surprised that you agreed with me here but what you said actually was better than what I said, IMHO.

I just got done saying that as an Ex-Catholic I was taught to fold my hands in either prayer or worship, the raising of hands is strickly forbidden, in mass anyways. But I used to get the feeling that if I fold my hands instead of raise them like everybody else that some would see me as being religious and thinking I was better than them because of my formal way of worship. However, God spoke to me and told me it is a matter of the heart, nothing more, and that I shouldn't be consintrating on what others thought or were doing but to focus on him. So I say as long as God is the focus you should be free to worship him in whatever way makes you comfortable.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
Thanks for the encouragement, nephilimiyr. It's interesting you brought up your Catholic past - because I was thinking of including that in my post, as I went to a very, very traditional Catholic School. My experience of the many school assemblies and masses we went to is pretty much the same as yours. However, unfortunately perhaps, it hasn't changed at all: if anything, since I finished, it's become even more strict and traditional, and even more things might be deemed disorderly. I think they were thinking of reverting entirely to a pre Vatican II approach... Latin is cool and all, but none of us students knew what was going on half the time. We were all going through the motions.

I've never been to a Latin mass before, thank goodness.

Although I think maybe it would be interesting to check it out at least once, maybe. But yeah, isn't it interesting how subjective worship is concerning what all the rules are, all the dos and don'ts, all the what is order and what is disorder arguements?

KingZzub · Mar 4, 2010

We all focus on the "decently and in order" bit, but the context is "LET ALL THINGS BE DONE", which in 1 Cor. 14 is about the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit.

If you are going to a service where there is no prophetic words, no healing the sick and no lives being changed then that is out of order, no matter how orderly the service is. All things need to be done!

Speaking in tongues needs to be done! Healing the sick needs to be done! Prophecies need to be done! Working of miracles needs to be done!

LET ALL THINGS BE DONE!

disciple-ofjesus · Mar 4, 2010

JimB said:
I understand your reluctance to view the clip, but it is part of the belief systems of some in this SF/PC fellowship you have chosen to be a part of. When a tumor grows on your body is it wise to ignore it? Remember, Paul said that a little leaven can eventually leaven the whole lump.

BTW, it is too much idiotic stuff such as is shown in the video that has made me ashamed to identify myself as a Charismatic anymore. When people ask me what I am I now tell them I am an Empowered Evangelical, a term coined by Rich Nathan and Ken Wilson.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

THEN why in heavens name do you hang out in a forum that you are so against? I don't understand why you come here and just criticize? If you don't identify with the Charasmatics, go hang in another forum more suited to your taste. Seems simple to me.

bobznew · Mar 4, 2010

As I have reviewed this thread, I realize that I have failed to notice an implication that is being drawn by some. And this is a point that has failed to be mentioned, so I will risk my own neck here and point it out...

Let's just say, for the moment, that we all could come to a consensus on the activities in this video. Let's say, hypothetically, that we all were to agree with the point of view that says that the activities in this video were in violation of I Corinthians 14. (We won't all come to that conclusion obviously, but let's just pretend so for this example

) Let's say that we watched the video, and it looked even MORE chaotic, out of control, weird, (choose your own adjective here), than it actually does in reality. That being said, here's the point I'm considering...

What Scripture is there that states that IF something is in violation of the guidelines of I Corinthians 14, then we may automatically conclude that the Holy Spirit is not there at all, not moving in that situation one bit? I don't see that Scripture in my Bible; if I have overlooked something that states that God will withdraw His Spirit based upon folks getting carried away or being a bit "crazy", then someone PLEASE tell me!

I say this because there are two issues here in this thread, and we are trying to address them both without really separating them up front. They are:

1) Is the incident too "over-the-top", or contrary to 1 Corin. 14?

and

2) If question #1 is answered 'Yes', then can we conclude that God's Holy
Spirit is not moving at all in this specific instance?

I realize that I'm setting myself up to be accused of "letting the ends justify the means". That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm just posting what I consider to be a valid question, considering that I have seen a good many posts in this thread in which people seem to have automatically concluded that since they believe it to be an incident contrary to 1 Corinthians 14, then by default it cannot be the Spirit of God moving in that place.

The very title of this thread reveals as much.

Some people will believe anything

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