How to convince R. Catholics that the ('host' wafer) is not Christs flesh and bone?

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LittleLambofJesus

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Wow...all those different fonts and colors are giving me a headache....

I think I will bow out of this thread as there is really nothing I can add that hasn't already been posted. God bless :wave:
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Christ's risen body doesn't have flesh, blood or bone.


Ummm,,when Christ resurrected he was still fully God and fully man, so much so that Thomas could not believe it and had to press against his material skin. Christ's resurrection was both fully human and divine, the way we will resurrect in our bodies on the last day..
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Rhamiel

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Yeah. That pretty much covers it.

After logic, perhaps it will go on to personal revelation and statements about how we feel about it.
personal revelation would be a great place to go, a number of saints have had visions of Christ telling them that the Eucharist is His Body
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Scott Hahn is a very good modern theologian, which is rare these days. I would love to see him and James White debate..
Guess we can log him out coming to the GT board to debate then :D :p

James White vs Scott Hahn - Catholic Answers Forums

*snip*

No specific information, but considering James White's vitriolic attitude toward the Catholic Church, it's likely that he attempted to wrangle Scott Hahn into a "debate" that was simply going to be a stomping session, Hahn saw through the trap, and politely declined.
 
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lighthouse_hope

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personal revelation would be a great place to go, a number of saints have had visions of Christ telling them that the Eucharist is His Body

You should know that personal revelation does not constitute public revelation and hence it is not biding even to Catholics.
 
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Rhamiel

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You should know that personal revelation does not constitute public revelation and hence it is not biding even to Catholics.
oh i know that it is not binding
but since Dogma and doctrine is binding, it is not like we did not believe in Real Presence before some saint had a vision or something, but it does support the idea, a catholic can say "well i do not believe the vision of St.XXX was a true vision" but we can not say "i believe that transubstantiation is a false teaching"
 
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Albion

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If one knows the Holy Spirit (not just read of Him in the scriptures and believes by mouth...read one of the quotes about this in my signature), and if one is humbled and open to the Holy Spirit to come in and guide a person, then He will guide the person to the Truth and His all-encompassing love. :)

Fine, but you know that it's not as simple as that. The HS guides us to an appreciation of the revelation already given by God for our guidance and to an understanding of it. If that isn't included in your explanation, it suggests what we sometimes read online from people who insist that they don't need God's word because they hold conversations with the HS who tells them ideas that contradict the Bible and/or that no one else has been chosen to know. That is not how the HS operates in our lives--which is what I was getting at.
 
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Jazmyn

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"I have set the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I shall not be shaken.
Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest secure,
because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
You have made known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand."" (Psalm 16:8-11)

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:42,44)
"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Seems to say that when the mortal body is swallowed up and clothed by an immortal one, there is no flesh and blood left, they are transformed and the body is no longer a natural body. Bread and wine are corruptible and will at some point perish and rot, but God said Jesus' body would never see decay. And if it's Jesus' immortal body that we eat, and it is what is absorbed into our body and becomes part of us, how can we die? Jesus' body would decay and die with us.

Priesthood imperfect and now null and Jesus is the only priest:

"11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?...16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."

"18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless" (Hebrews 7:11, 16-18)

"24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24-25)

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Timothy 2:5)

"26 Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens." (Hebrews 7:26)

How different is Jesus to human priests, who can nullify the sacrament:


THE COUNCIL OF TRENT
SESSION THE SEVENTH,
Celebrated on the third day of the month of March, MDXLVII....
ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL​

...
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that, in ministers, when they effect, and confer the sacraments, there is not required the intention at least of doing what the Church does; let him be anathema (The Council of Trent - The Seventh Session (J. Waterworth Translation), page 55.)

"If there is a defect in any of these: namely, the due matter, the form with intention, or the sacerdotal order of the celebrant, it nullifies the sacrament. " (Pope Pius IV - Works, Vol. 1, p. 488).
"It is not possible for any one to be sure with the certainty of faith that he has received a true sacrament, as a sacrament cannot be celebrated without the intention of the minister, and no one can see the intention of another."
(Neque potest certus esse, certitudine fidei, se percipere verum sacramentum, cum sacramentum sine intentione ministri non conficiatur, et intentionem alterius nemo videre possit.—Cardinal Bellarmine - Bell. Disput. de Justif., lib. iii. c. 8, sec. 5, tom. iv. p. 488. Prag., 1721.)

"28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever." (Hebrews 7:28)
"13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself"
not offered by priests "unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:13-14)

"12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12)​

MEDIATOR DEI
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE SACRED LITURGY

TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN, THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE
...
79. The august sacrifice of the altar is, as it were, the supreme instrument whereby the merits won by the divine Redeemer upon the cross are distributed to the faithful: "as often as this commemorative sacrifice is offered, there is wrought the work of our Redemption." (Mediator Dei, 79., verse 75) Wasn't it obtained on the cross?
Jesus lives forever to intercede for us.

"11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation." (Hebrews 9:11)

"24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one;
that is some earthly temple, some earthly sanctuary, some earthly altar, he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence." (Hebrews 9:24)

"27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." (Hebrews 7:27)
"25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, how can he be offered again and again on some earthly altar? the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world...." (Hebrews 9:25-26)
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:28)
(continued on next post...)
 
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Jazmyn

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(...continued from previous post)

There only needed to be one sacrifice for sins once. Not again and again by imperfect priests.

ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.
CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent - The Twenty-Second Session (J. Waterworth Translation), pages 158-159.)
Part II: The Celebration of the Christian Mystery
Section Two: The Seven Sacraments of the Church
Chapter One: The Sacraments of Christian Initiation
Article 3. The Sacrament of the Eucharist
V. The Sacramental Sacrifice Thanksgiving, Memorial, Presence
The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church
The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."188 [1367] (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Part II, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 3, #V, 1367)


MEDIATOR DEI
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII

ON THE SACRED LITURGY
TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN, THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHIOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE
...
79. The august sacrifice of the altar is, as it were, the supreme instrument whereby the merits won by the divine Redeemer upon the cross are distributed to the faithful: "as often as this commemorative sacrifice is offered, there is wrought the work of our Redemption." (Mediator Dei, 79., verse 75)
For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests, who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different. (The Council of Trent - The Twenty-Second Session, Chapter II (J. Waterworth Translation), page 155.)
CANON II.--If any one saith, that by those words, Do this for the commemoration of me (Luke xxii. 19), Christ did not institute the apostles priests; or, did not ordain that they, and other priests should offer His own body and blood; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent - The Twenty-Second Session (J. Waterworth Translation), pages 158-159.)
"...For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins." (Hebrews 10:1-2)
If the eucharist obtains forgiveness for sins, why is it offered again and again?
"10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:10-14)
"And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." (Hebrews 10:18)
There is no more need for extra sacrifices for sins. Jesus is glorified, not a sacrifice again and again.
"...But now he has appeared" in the flesh, note, he only did this: "once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;" not every eucharist "and he will appear a second time," second out of two, his lifetime on earth and when he comes to reign again "not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:26-28)
He cannot fleshly be with us at the present time, he is seated at the right hand of God, and will not appear on earth again until the second coming:
"12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:12-14)
"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1)
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
When we are alive on earth, we are away from him, not with him in his bodily presence:
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord....We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:6, 8)
He has gone to the Father:
"Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me." (John 7:33)
"My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come. (John 13:33)
He is in a different place to us, we are only with him again when we die or he returns:
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." (John 14:3)
He is with us by his Holy Spirit:
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'...But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (John 16:5, 7)
 
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Dorothea

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So fun to be "back".
Nice to see that you're still hanging around!
And growing!! That's what I love about this place,
it stretches my mind (that and the lovely ppl here)
And I will enjoy more discussion with you concerning
pride, mind, etc. but right now I simply MUST pull myself
away lol.
Hope to be back later today.
:hug::kiss:

lol I KWYM. I was out for a while. My priest came by to bless our house. :)
 
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Dorothea

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Fine, but you know that it's not as simple as that. The HS guides us to an appreciation of the revelation already given by God for our guidance and to an understanding of it. If that isn't included in your explanation, it suggests what we sometimes read online from people who insist that they don't need God's word because they hold conversations with the HS who tells them ideas that contradict the Bible and/or that no one else has been chosen to know. That is not how the HS operates in our lives--which is what I was getting at.
I definitely know it's not that simple! No doubt. :) I see what you're saying. No, the HS would not guide us into error. That is true.
 
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Trento

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"27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." (Hebrews 7:27)
"25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, how can he be offered again and again on some earthly altar? the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world...." (Hebrews 9:25-26)

"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (Hebrews 9:28)
(continued on next post...)


In no way do we as Catholics believe that Christ continues to be crucified physically or die a physical death in heaven over and over again. However, we do believe that the Mass does participate in the everlasting sacrifice of Christ. First, one must not separate the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross from the events which surround it. The sacrifice of our Lord is inseparably linked to the Last Supper. Here Jesus took bread and wine. Looking to St. Matthew's text (26:26ff), He said over the bread, "Take this and eat it. This is My body"; and over the cup of wine, "This is My blood, the blood of the covenant, to be poured out on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."
The next day, on Good Friday, our Lord's body hung on the altar of the cross and His precious blood was spilt to wash away our sins and seal the everlasting, perfect covenant. (note)The divine life our Lord offered and shared for our salvation in the sacrifice of Good Friday is the same offered and shared at the Last Supper. The Last Supper, the sacrifice of Good Friday and the Resurrection on Easter form one saving event.
Read that over again and let it sink in.
One must have a nuanced understanding of time. One must distinguish chronological time from kairotic time, as found in sacred Scripture. In the Bible, <chronos> refers to chronological time—past, present and future—specific deeds which have an end point. <Kairos>, or kairotic time, refers to God's eternal time, time of the present moment which recapitulates the entire past as well as contains the entire future. Therefore, while our Lord's saving event occurred chronologically around the year AD 30-33, in the kairotic sense of time it is an ever-present reality which touches our lives here and now. In the same sense, this is why through baptism we share now in the mystery of Christ's passion, death and resurrection, a chronological event that happened almost 1,965 years ago, but is still efficacious for us today.
With this in mind, we also remember that our Lord commanded, as recorded in the Gospel of St. Luke (22:14ff) and St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians (11:23ff), "Do this in remembrance of Me." Clearly our Lord wanted the faithful to repeat, to participate in and to share in this sacramental mystery. The Last Supper, which is inseparably linked to Good Friday (and the Resurrection), is perpetuated in the holy Mass for time eternal.
The Mass therefore is a memorial. In each of the Eucharistic prayers, the <anamnesis>, or memorial, follows the consecration, whereby we call to mind the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord. However, this memorial is not simply a recollection of past history in chronological time, but rather a liturgical proclamation of living history, of an event that continues to live and touch our lives now in that sense of kairotic time.
Just as good orthodox Jews truly live the Passover event when celebrating the Passover liturgy, plunging themselves into an event which occurred about 1,200 years before our Lord, we too live Christ's saving event in celebrating the Mass. The sacrifice which Christ made for our salvation remains an ever-present reality: "As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is a memorial and because it applies its fruit carried out.
 
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sunlover1

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The word "nous" does mean 'mind', but also in the sense of perception/understanding/reason/sense also purpose ... etc. And kardia has as part of its meaning "mind" ... and logos has as part of its meaning intellect/reason/reckoning. ...


I don't mean we should not use the intellect -- sorry for giving that impression ! Instead, the intellect should be in service to not instead of relation and disposition. In fact, our intellect will show the interior disposition, as it is always to some extent in "service to" the disposition.
I think we both take the same thing away from the heart/mind discussion.
I would so love to have a more informed discussion though, rather than
speculation (I mean only in those areas where one CAN be informed. Obviously
some things are merely speculative) Still havent found an adequate Bible program
for my macbook :(

I wish so too (for myself) ^_^
but I'm not really concerned about the hows -- which makes me typically EO :D

:hug:
Right, well me too... except the EO part :idea:

At my church, the mind is discussed verryy frequently.
And I'm thankful for that because it's very relevant :p
B blessed Thekla !
 
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bbbbbbb

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I see. So along with the so-called "non-denominational" denomination which actually worships a book, we should also reject the Romanists who worship wafers and cups of wine? I would have thought we were able to get beyond those misrepresentations -- and yes, I know my first clause was one; it's intended to provoke you to consider the Golden Rule, which you may recall is a commandment of Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord.

Pray tell, then, what is it that Catholics actually consume at the Eucharist. We have Lionroar who informs us that they are not in the least bit guilty of cannablism and do not actually eat flesh and blood and we have Catholic theologians who proclaim the Aristotelian view that although the bread and the wine are the True Body and Blood of Jesus they are not physically the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, so that the faith consume the "accidents" of the Eucharist (a wafer, if you will, and a sip of wine).

Please show me anywhere in Catholic theology that Catholics actually eat human flesh and drink human blood in the Eucharist.
 
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In no way do we as Catholics believe that Christ continues to be crucified physically or die a physical death in heaven over and over again.


You are anathematizing yourself, brother, not saying that in the mass is a true and proper sacrifice.

CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent - The Twenty-Second Session (J. Waterworth Translation), pages 158-159.)

A sacrifice involves death. Over and over and over. No resurrection. No ascension. But death. Over and over and over in the true and proper sacrifice of levitical-type priests at the altar day after day after day.

The only difference is the manner-bloody or not.

I appreciate your zeal, however, in trying to explain things away.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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[/size]

You are anathematizing yourself, brother, not saying that in the mass is a true and proper sacrifice.

CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema. (The Council of Trent - The Twenty-Second Session (J. Waterworth Translation), pages 158-159.)

A sacrifice involves death. Over and over and over. No resurrection. No ascension. But death. Over and over and over in the true and proper sacrifice of levitical-type priests at the altar day after day after day.

The only difference is the manner-bloody or not.

I appreciate your zeal, however, in trying to explain things away.
From cannibals to vampires......when will it ever end :)

Vampires

*snip*

As one who is a former "vampire," now set free by the power of the Cross of Christ, I have a certain vested interest in this issue which goes beyond the academic. Before we answer these questions, let us briefly define what we mean by a vampire. ,,,,,,,

It is also important to note that while the vampire legend is nearly universal, it reached its most epidemic proportions in heavily Catholic (or Orthodox) eastern Europe. Most cultures have taboos against drinking blood. This can doubtless be traced back to the command the Lord gave Noah after the flood forbidding the drinking of blood (Gen. 9:4).

It is ironic that both the Catholic and Orthodox religions feature as their central superstition the idea of drinking blood and eating flesh (under the sacramental appearance of wine and bread) against the specific commands of God.
 
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Eucharisted

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The Lord commanded against drinking blood, yet we consume the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The Lord also commanded against worshiping man, yet we worship Jesus Christ who is God and Man. We are not wrong to consume Christ nor wrong to worship Christ, because we need God and love God.
 
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SpiritualAntiseptic

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Catholic theologians who proclaim the Aristotelian view that although the bread and the wine are the True Body and Blood of Jesus they are not physically the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, so that the faith consume the "accidents" of the Eucharist (a wafer, if you will, and a sip of wine).

Please show me anywhere in Catholic theology that Catholics actually eat human flesh and drink human blood in the Eucharist.

I think it is important to clarify- They are truely and physically the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The bread and wine have a change in substance (what it really is), while keeping the accidents (what it appears to be). To say that it is human flesh dimishes its divinity and ignores its reality.
 
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SpiritualAntiseptic

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From cannibals to vampires......when will it ever end :)

Vampires

*snip*

As one who is a former "vampire," now set free by the power of the Cross of Christ, I have a certain vested interest in this issue which goes beyond the academic. Before we answer these questions, let us briefly define what we mean by a vampire. ,,,,,,,

It is also important to note that while the vampire legend is nearly universal, it reached its most epidemic proportions in heavily Catholic (or Orthodox) eastern Europe. Most cultures have taboos against drinking blood. This can doubtless be traced back to the command the Lord gave Noah after the flood forbidding the drinking of blood (Gen. 9:4).

It is ironic that both the Catholic and Orthodox religions feature as their central superstition the idea of drinking blood and eating flesh (under the sacramental appearance of wine and bread) against the specific commands of God.

God (Jesus) commands us to eat his body and blood (John 6)
 
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