Equality Bill threatens priesthood

Anglian · Dec 12, 2009

Equality Bill threatens integrity of the priesthood, bishops tell Harman
Equality minister Harriet Harman will ban the Catholic Church in Britain from insisting that priests remain celibate single men, the bishops have said.

Church leaders will be powerless to stop ordained priests from marrying women or entering into same-sex civil partnerships under the terms of Miss Harmans Equality Bill.

Bishops would be unable to stop their priests from having sex change operations, living openly promiscuous lifestyles or engaging in any other activities seen as a legitimate form of sexual expression.
(you can read the rest of this here):
Equality Bill threatens integrity of the priesthood, bishops tell Harman - Catholic Herald Online

The idea that the State can tell the Church that it must ordain women and gay men is yet another sign of the aggressive secularism which dominates UK society.

To be balanced, I ought to note that late on in the piece a Government minister says it probably won't have the effect we fear; yes, we'll accept the honest assurances of a government that took us into Iraq on a lie (regardless of the rights and wrongs of that war, there were no WMDs) and which cannot even be honest about its own expense payments. I fear I, for one, am not reassured.

Still the Church has always thrived in times of persecution, and since this useless corrupt government has only a few months to struggle on before it is put out of our misery by an election, I would guess the act will not pass.

But our brothers and sisters elsewhere can see what the mood is in the UK on such matters - Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now ... :crossrc:

peace,

Anglian

Fantine · Dec 12, 2009

I don't know very much about church/government relations in the UK, but is it possible this is what happens when religious leaders of every denomination get too involved in the political process and, consequently, relationships between government and church break down into outright hostility?

If so, it might be instructive for other nations to heed this warning.

AngelicRose · Dec 12, 2009

We must continue to pray for our priests, all around the world, regardless of what the government may or may not pass. It is always our priests decisions to live godly lives, as the Church asks them to do. I don't think that many priests will listen to a piece of legislation if they are a part of the Church. And I think those parishioners who appreciate a priest, who lives by what the Church teaches, will make sure to be in parishes where said priests say Mass.

I would honestly move to a different parish if my priest got married, was openly gay, etc. Our faith should not be destroyed just because a government is pressing down on us faithful.

Eucharisted · Dec 12, 2009

Holy Mary, Queen of Europe, pray for your poor sons!

AngelicRose · Dec 12, 2009

Eucharisted said:
Holy Mary, Queen of Europe, pray for your poor sons!

Fantine · Dec 12, 2009

There seems to be an attitude that the priests are entirely innocent in having this potential law brought upon their heads, and I don't know anything about English politics, so they well may be innocent.

But my personal opinion is that when clergymen of any denomination get too involved in the political process to the point of telling people whom they can and cannot vote for and legislators what they must and must not support that much of the good will that might have developed during the years will be eroded.

Take the media dispute between Patrick Kennedy and the bishop of Providence, for example, or the bishops' outcry because the President was invited to speak at a Notre Dame commencement.

When clergy/government relations break down, things like this are only to be expected.

D'Ann · Dec 12, 2009

Once again, some are blaming the Church and the clergymen for a corrupt government... Lord help us and have mercy on us.

Praying for UK and other countries that the Church is being persecuted in for standing up for Church teachings.

May the Lord give us all a strength of character to be true to the Church teachings and not submit to corruption within any government.

MariaRegina · Dec 12, 2009

O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and save us.

SpiritualAntiseptic · Dec 13, 2009

Fantine said:
There seems to be an attitude that the priests are entirely innocent in having this potential law brought upon their heads, and I don't know anything about English politics, so they well may be innocent.

But my personal opinion is that when clergymen of any denomination get too involved in the political process to the point of telling people whom they can and cannot vote for and legislators what they must and must not support that much of the good will that might have developed during the years will be eroded.

Take the media dispute between Patrick Kennedy and the bishop of Providence, for example, or the bishops' outcry because the President was invited to speak at a Notre Dame commencement.

When clergy/government relations break down, things like this are only to be expected.

I don't think this has to do with sour relationships. I believe this is about social readjustment by force.

Fantine · Dec 13, 2009

And, not knowing much about English politics, I don't know one way or the other, but I am 110% certain that such actions are much more likely to take place when clergy-government relationships are strained.

SpiritualAntiseptic · Dec 13, 2009

Fantine said:
And, not knowing much about English politics, I don't know one way or the other, but I am 110% certain that such actions are much more likely to take place when clergy-government relationships are strained.

You are blaming the victim here. I believe the Church has very right to promote her morality and be part of the political process. If charities can lobby, if corporations, if special interests, then certainly the Church has that right.

This is just the way of life for the west right now. We don't believe in freedom, right or left. We just say we believe in freedom when we want the ability to do the things we enjoy and call it immorality or discrimination when people do things we don't like. It's all about personal preference at this point. That's what the government is doing. No one in the government is interested in true freedom. They want gay women priests and by golly, that is what they are going to get.

Fantine · Dec 13, 2009

SpiritualAntiseptic said:
No one in the government is interested in true freedom. They want gay women priests and by golly, that is what they are going to get.

Some women and gays might disagree about your definition of what "true freedom" is (I am assuming you are a heterosexual male.)

SpiritualAntiseptic · Dec 13, 2009

Fantine said:
Some women and gays might disagree about your definition of what "true freedom" is (I am assuming you are a heterosexual male.)

That's the problem, for some people, freedom is iin mposing their will on others. People talk about rights and freedom in a totally meaningless way.

Anglian · Dec 13, 2009

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches in the UK (the ones most likely to be hit by this) are not involved in politics in any real way; the Church of England, the Established Church, has bishops in the House of Lords, and is therefore involved.

The legislation stems from the current government's insistence that its own paradigm of 'equality' should apply to all. It can see only one explanation for the phenomenon of the RCC and the OC not having women priests - sex discrimination; it can see only one explanation why we don't allow openly gay men in a relationship to be priests - homophobia; it can see only one reason why we do not allow priests to marry - weird preoccupation with celibacy.

It is the sheer poverty of imagination, as well as ignorance of Church history and theology which beggars belief.

No one denies, I hope, that it some Churches there are elements who will discriminate on such grounds - but that it not why the Churches concerned have the positions they have.

The UK's Established Church has women priests and openly gay ones; it allows divorced men and women to be priests; it does not insist on celibacy - or even fidelity. Those whose Christianity takes them in this direction have a Church which will accommodate just about anything. Why those of us who, in all conscience, do not feel that some of this things are Apostolic should be forced, by law, to act against our consciences, only a government obssessed with its own ideology knows.

Fortunately, this government is (like our economy) on its last legs, and it is doubtful whether such legislation can be passed before May. It is, however, a disturbing sign of the times in the UK.

I had not thought that I was the stuff of which martyrs were made, but a law like this might just test that one to destruction. I hope for the strength, should the trial come, to resist such legislation.

peace,

Anglian

InTheCloud · Dec 13, 2009

I don't think this has to do with sour relationships. I believe this is about social readjustment by force.

You just the nail in the head, when Argentine Spanish Philospher Horacio Vazques Rial wrote "REACTIONARY LEFT", he destroyed the myth about the European Secular Left, is not secular at all, as Nieztche predicted in the mid XIX century when leftist thinking was arising in France and Germany, is all about the Cult of the State and the use of force to reach the secular heaven on earth, the Kingdom of Equality.

The English law does function as part of that way of thinking. Is the modern left mindset.

Also not the England has a tradition since the Reformation of the State telling churches want to do, if fact the Equalty Minister is a part of a tradition that started with Henry the XVIII, and fortunately I bet Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist and Calvinist separtist will opose now as they did in the past.

Secundulus · Dec 13, 2009

This may actually be a good thing. The Church has been comfortable for a long time in the west and has in many places grown lazy.

History tells us that persecution will help remove the tares and will be the seed of orthodox renewal.

It will be purified by fire.

AngelicRose · Dec 13, 2009

SpiritualAntiseptic said:
That's the problem, for some people, freedom is iin mposing their will on others. People talk about rights and freedom in a totally meaningless way.

Just an example...

Should people have the right to kill innocent human beings just because they haven't been born yet?

That's one freedom I'm completely okay with giving up. And I'm thankful the Church teaches that it is wrong as well.

D'Ann · Dec 19, 2009

Freedom to all. Justice for all. Liberty for all. All things in moderation. Respect for each other's similarities and differences.

No one should be forced to believe in a certain way. No one should be forced to accept things that are contrary to dogma and to their conscious.

It has nothing to do with descrimination and everything to do with the government persecuting the Churches for being true to their dogma and teachings... theologies.

This kind of law will not just effect the Church of England, but any other Christian Church and other religions that have dogma, theology, teachings, traditions etc. that do not allow sex outside of marriage or for their clergymen to be married. Christianity is not the only religion that will be effected in England with this kind of law. I pray that Anglican is right and that they don't pass such a law.

If the UK does pass this kind of law, I could see our own country (USA) following in her footprints. Although, here in the USA, it would cause an uproar among many different religions. Any politician stupid enough to mess with our religious freedom would probably end up not being re-elected.

Anglian · Dec 19, 2009

Dear D'Ann,

Thank you for this. Yes, if this sort of secularism wins out here, it will be coming your way soon.

Of course, from the secular mindset it is puzzling to see any organisation which does not accept its values, and so, as Rousseau put it, we must 'be forced to be free'. Except, of course, freedom is to be found only in obedience to God's Law. we are not dismayed, however, the Church, unlike thisw useless UK Government, is for ever.

peace, and Christmas greetings to NewMan and yourself,

Anglian

Tigg · Dec 19, 2009

Good posts here. Horrible news. The persecution of Christianity. No state has the right... It will happen here in the US. Ongoing anti Christian going on now. And the people approve basically because they do nothing.

Is this to be just another chapter in Christianity or perhaps heading toward the end times? God help us all as freedom of religion disappears into state dogma and state religion. :crossrc:

Equality Bill threatens priesthood

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