what a burden

Do you think God loves everybody?...

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Yes, I do.

It depends on whether the person will be/become completely reprobate/rebellious and REJECT Him. It's the same as a parent's love for their children.

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If a parent sacrifices everything for the child...


....and the child runs away...(a truly loving parent will still love the child and do everything to retreive/rescue the child and return happiness to the child's life)


...but if the child insists on rebelling and rejects forever the parent/goodness, no matter how much love the parent has, the parent's love is simply useless (human parents might forever love the child with a broken heart, but to what actual benefit to anyone if the child refuses to return home repentant?) .

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So love has to benefit someone or it's invalid? There is no such thing as useless love. God loves everyone - everyone. It breaks His heart to see so many walk away, and so few return. But love doesn't stop when someone is unrepentant, and start again when they repent. His love is constant. But so is His justice. He has made a way for us to return to Him. If someone chooses not to accept that, God doesn't stop loving them. But like a parent of a rebellious teen, His love never stops.

God doesn't make this mistake of 'useless sentiment', it simply does not accomplish anything to love a child that has disowned you as a parent.

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Are you telling me that if your child disowned you, you would stop loving him/her, because it doesn't accomplish anything? Since when does love have to accomplish something?? God is passionate, loving His creation by choice. Squelching His love would be going against His own nature, because God is love.

If you are a parent and your child disowns you (it is safe to say the child is completely and irreversibly rebellious) and wants nothing to ever do with you again because they have decided to demonize you and hate you completely forever, you as a parent have the choice to have fond memories of the child (and depressing heartache) for the rest of your life, or...FORGET.

If a disowned parent desires to go through life with depression and heartache, that is of course their choice, but they will have a "USELESS SENTIMENT" for that child and that sentiment will not do ANYBODY any good. The only reason that anybody would WANT the parent to have that "USELESS SENTIMENT" is because they HATE THE PARENT.

The parent has always put so much of their heart and soul into loving the child,.......and then the child BETRAYS them???????

God has always put so much of His heart and soul into loving His offspring,......and the child/individual BETRAYS HIM???????

How unfair/unjust are you going to be to God and begrudge Him His rejection of those who reject Him?

Most parents would be told by their spouses and everybody else on earth to...

........FORGET (become INDIFFERENT to the child).

The opposite of love is not "hate", the opposite of love is INDIFFERENCE.

If you, stormdancer, really do know of any good that is accomplished by loving those who have rejected/spurned/betrayed you, then fully explain and give clear reasoning instead of simply disagree without reasoning.

Are you saying that God loves those who commit apostasy?....

Hebrews 6:1
"if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to CONTEMPT".

Are you going to begrudge God His DISPLEASURE and denial of blessings to those who reject/betray Him?

Are you saying that God continues to love Judas? (maybe THEORETICALLY He regrets losing anyone to the lake of fire).

So you mean that Jesus LOVINGLY said "Woe to you"?....
Mattew 11:21 and Luke 10:13
"Woe to you".

God is PRACTICAL, not THEORETICAL (give God a break!!).

Sweet thread

nasa1 said:

I dont like praying. I dont think a person should do anything spiritual just to get it over with.

I dont understand prayer. What's the point of praying, say, for someone and a situation if its not God's will? Then your just praying in vain.

And why do I have to ask God over and over again? If I was married I wouldnt have to ask my husband over and over again for something. He would love me and asking once would be enough. The bible seems to portray God as very hard to deal with, and you have to beg for things. Or you have to suffer first to get his attention, by fasting or whatever. If I cut my hand off, would that make God hear me faster?

Why cant i just simply ask once for something?
Do I really have to tell him how great he is to get him in the mood to hear me? Prayer is a burden. Shouldnt it be enjoyable?

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Because prayer doesn't work like that. Prayer is communication with God, you ask him things in accordance to his word, and not in vain. Some people do only pray when things get tuff or when they want something. We have to seek his kingdom in everything. Prayer is wonderful, because he's everywhere so you can just talk to him anytime. He's our Heavenly Father, he desires to hear from us. Just be yourself but also remember that we are to go to him in reverence.

Because the modern day moneychangers have their own agenda (to maintain control over us so they can continue to get our money...to them, we are a COMMODITY, their livelihood), we have been taught many false beliefs, but also many bad attitudes. One of them is in how we talk to God (prayer). Prayer should be used to DISCUSS and seek His wise counsel (good advice) when we haven't been able to use our God-given brains to discover the solution to our problem (He likes it when we use the wisdom He has already given to us in life) instead of hastily always running to Him (He wants us to EXPERIENCE "LIFE" and deal with what He has put before us). How can WE endure our trials if we are always running to Him at the 'drop of a hat'?.

Matthew 24:13
"But he who endures to the end will be saved".

Endurance is a very important lesson, but it's also that we shouldn't be condescending to God by using FLATTERY in prayer nor should we think He needs to be cheerd up by patronizing Him.




God doesn't want us to FLATTER Him or patronize Him

more excellent way said:

If you are a parent and your child disowns you (it is safe to say the child is completely and irreversibly rebellious) and wants nothing to ever do with you again because they have decided to demonize you and hate you completely forever, you as a parent have the choice to have fond memories of the child (and depressing heartache) for the rest of your life, or...FORGET.

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If you could ever forget and stop loving a child you gave birth to and raised, you must be the most heartless parent ever. I don't care if my kids decide to never have contact with me again - I will never EVER stop loving them. There's no such thing as an irreversible rebellion. ANYONE can come to God, if they will repent. Some do, some don't. But God loves them, no matter what.

If a disowned parent desires to go through life with depression and heartache, that is of course their choice, but they will have a "USELESS SENTIMENT" for that child and that sentiment will not do ANYBODY any good. The only reason that anybody would WANT the parent to have that "USELESS SENTIMENT" is because they HATE THE PARENT.

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I still say you cannot turn love on and off like a switch.

The parent has always put so much of their heart and soul into loving the child,.......and then the child BETRAYS them???????

God has always put so much of His heart and soul into loving His offspring,......and the child/individual BETRAYS HIM???????

How unfair/unjust are you going to be to God and begrudge Him His rejection of those who reject Him?

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How human you make God sound. His love transcends sin; it goes beyond rejection. I think this is the problem. God made man in His image, but GOD IS NOT MAN. He is above man. His love is unmeasureable. He will never stop loving us. Remember, it's the lost sheep He goes out to find, and He rejoices when He brings one home.

Most parents would be told by their spouses and everybody else on earth to...

........FORGET (become INDIFFERENT to the child).

The opposite of love is not "hate", the opposite of love is INDIFFERENCE.

If you, stormdancer, really do know of any good that is accomplished by loving those who have rejected/spurned/betrayed you, then fully explain and give clear reasoning instead of simply disagree without reasoning.

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Well, there are those who crucified Jesus. He was betrayed, rejected. He forgave them. We have all rejected Christ at some point in our lives, every time we sin, in fact. Yet He takes us back. Judas and Peter both betrayed Jesus. Judas killed himself, but Peter repented, and became even stronger in the Lord.

I have a good friend - who used to be an enemy. She tried three times to get us evicted (She was our new apartment mgr.) One day, I decided to destroy my enemy, by making her a friend. It took six months of Christmas cards, stopping in to say Hi, asking about her health, etc. But she is now a friend. The fact that I loved her whether she wanted me to or not won her over.

But the most good it does is that it keeps our hearts soft. A heart of stone cannot be bruised, but it can't accept Jesus, either. I would much rather have a broken heart of flesh than a whole heart of stone.

Are you saying that God loves those who commit apostasy?....

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Yes, I am. He hates the sin, but He loves the people.

Hebrews 6:1
"if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to CONTEMPT".

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Hebrews 6:6 -8
I believe that this passage is saying that once you have belonged to God, if you keep sinning and going back for forgiveness over and over again you are basically holding Jesus in contempt.

Are you going to begrudge God His DISPLEASURE and denial of blessings to those who reject/betray Him?

Are you saying that God continues to love Judas? (maybe THEORETICALLY He regrets losing anyone to the lake of fire).

So you mean that Jesus LOVINGLY said "Woe to you"?....
Mattew 11:21 and Luke 10:13
"Woe to you".

God is PRACTICAL, not THEORETICAL (give God a break!!).

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God does still love Judas, and very likely grieves at what Judas could have been. God denies blessings and gives blessings as He sees fit. Sometimes it seems like He blesses those who reject Him. That is His business. I know He's blessed me with a difficult life (no sarcasm intended.) He knows that if everything were easy, or wonderful, I would most likely not lean on Him so much.

And finally, "woe to you" is the most loving thing Jesus can do - to warn us of situations and attitudes that will pull us away from Him. Woe to me, if I do not follow Him.

Okay, stormdancer, you are just being contrary and arguementative (for silly controversy). In time (as The Lord leads), you will understand more about God's love being reserved only for those who will love Him back instead of those who scorn and reject Him. It is unreasonable of someone to expect God to continue to pour His heart out to anyone who wants nothing to do with Him (and not very nice of you to expect Him to).

By the way, Hebrews chapter 6 is talking about a....

...FOUNDATION OF WORKS (self effort, deeds) being APOSTASY (you do remember that JESUS is our ONLY foundation, don't you?).

It says that, after we have come to know THE GOSPEL, if we choose to ESTABLISH a different foundation (a foundation of works), then we are rejecting Jesus as our ONLY foundation (and it then becomes impossible to be redeemed by the one and ONLY foundation.....Jesus of the gospel)...therefore, establishing a foundation of "works"/deeds (self effort) is APOSTASY (and The Lord will NOT overlook that rejection no matter what).

In other words,...

Even when a person has once been enlightened by knowing and learning of Jesus, when they commit APOSTASY (rejecting the only true foundation), they have REJECTED Jesus's gracious sacrifice of Himself as their forgiveness. On the day of the final judgement, even though they have the knowledge of Jesus as savior, their rejection will not BE OVERLOOKED (God's judgement against them will be just).

Do NOT do/perform "works" of self effort. JESUS did the "works of God" (John 6:28 and 9:3).

more excellent way said:

Okay, stormdancer, you are just being contrary and arguementative (for silly controversy). In time (as The Lord leads), you will understand more about God's love being reserved only for those who will love Him back instead of those who scorn and reject Him. It is unreasonable of someone to expect God to continue to pour His heart out to anyone who wants nothing to do with Him (and not very nice of you to expect Him to).

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It's kind of funny in a sad way. On another thread, I'm arguing with someone who is of the opinion that God loves everyone so much that He won't "throw his beloved children in the torture of hell." They insist that a God of love would never, ever send anyone to hell. We all get to heaven. From Billy Graham to Hitler, everyone is so deep in God's love that He may punish a few, but it's temporary, and then they get into heaven. (It's the Gandhi thread.)

God's patience is long-suffering. He will, eventually, give sinners over to their own lusts. I don't think that means He doesn't love them, or wouldn't welcome them back. And I agree that He will eventually harden His heart against those who intentionally reject Him, and die in that rejection. But as long as it's a possibility for them to turn back to Him, I believe His love remains.

And, I've always lived for a great argument, er, debate!!!

Okay, in reference to God's 'never ending' love and the final judgement/rejection of Him, it comes down to FINALIZATION.

We humans, don't know everything beforehand that is ever going to happen, TIME is very significant/meaningful to our existence, but to God a thousand years is as a day....

2 Peter 3:8
"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

...God knows the future, but in order to be just, He must give everybody a chance to prove themselves, otherwise, in the Garden of Eden, He could have just skipped letting humanity exist and sent billions of souls to the lake of fire.

It is WE humans that need to GUESS whether someone will ever sincerely change.

Truthful/genuine debate are good for discovering the objective truth, but human vernacular (using figures of speech, idioms/jargon) communication is often unintentionally deceptive/mislesding. If we don't take care to choose our words properly (it's very common), we often introduce uncertainty and confusion into the discussion (whether our bias for subjective truth is subconscious or not).

In order to "love the truth and so be saved", we need to COMMUNICATE truth (speak in no uncertain terms in order to not cause any confusion about what we have to say).

Many Christians who read 2 Thess. 2:10 will think it means that we should be nosy and discover everybody's personal secrets (becoming a PEST and causing strife), but truly loving the TRUTH means taking care to COMMUNICATE objective truth so there will be no doubt about what you have to say (poetic justice is that we will be rewarded with the ability to UNDERSTAND real truth if we speak in no uncertain terms)....we should...

1 Thessalonians 4:11
"live QUIETLY and mind our own affairs", not be nosy getting into other people's business.

We are also told in scripture to avoid SILLY controversy (useless babbling, not useful disovery/exploration of real truth). So, you see, when God had Pilate say "What is truth?", He knew that only a pure/contrite heart that cares about other people would also be able to TRULY love Him also. He has hidden a second/deeper message in scripture (not for the intellectual, but only for an INNER TEMPLE that can have an INNER understanding),...a message that cannot be SEEN, but can only be FELT (in a pure heart).

So, if you keep going to your buildings and always seek an intellectual understanding of scripture and God, you will never be able to be an INNER TEMPLE of a building, you can only be an inner temple of the OUTER TEMPLE (JESUS, John 2:19, 21 and 1 Corin. 3:16 and 6:19).

Amos 5:21...........(God is speaking)...

"I HATE, I DESPISE your feasts and your solemn assemblies".

Human "HATE" is based on egotistical resentment that another person has more integrity (if our conscience tells us that we are a scoundrel), but God's "HATE" is based on disappointment/disgust that a knowledgeable person holds Him in contempt, scorn, betrayal and rejection even though He has done so much to provide everything for us (He didn't have to make flowers beautiful and fragrant, etc.) for our enjoyment/happiness, but, no doubt, what bothers Him most is that He is being ROBBED of His offspring when He is rejected (His wish is that ALL would return to Him, but many simply want to remain rebellious) because they won't be able to return to Him if they reject Him.

The only way this world could be made better is to abolish (not 'REDUCE', but ABOLISH) evil (wars, corruption, cheating, hatred, etc.),....so Ghandi had good WISHES, but he never had a better world to offer, God does.

Hebrews 11:16
"a better country, that is, a heavenly one".

As far as objective truth (in God's eyes), "GOOD" is an ABSOLUTE, it means PERFECT.

(an "absolute" is GOD IS GOOD IS GOOD or TRUTH IS TRUTH IS TRUTH, etc.).

Luke 18:19
"No one is GOOD but God alone"............(only God is perfect).

...we cannot actually BE "good"....we can only practice "goodNESS"..................

Titus 1:8
"hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself".

If God was not going to penalize 'badness'/evil, then of what value would be GOODNESS?....

AND, God's judgements would not be just and righteous.

If you live your whole life without robbing banks and stealing etc., and then you find out at the final judgement that God is allowing EVERYONE regardless of how they ever lived enter into the city of God, you're going to say "What's up God?, I always made an effort to do everything right because I loved your ways and was righteous and just and I loved you sincerely AND NOW YOU LET EVERYONE have the same reward as me????".

Of course, it would not be unfair only to you, but would also be unfair/unjust to EVERYONE who was careful to live properly.

There was one verse that I never really agreed with until about a month ago because vengeance really never made any practical sense to me...

Revelation 6:10
"they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?".

I always thought that I would be the only one that wouldn't ask for vengeance (I simply have/see no practical need for it).

....BUT, The Lord taught me that ABSOLUTES MUST BE MAINTAINED (in order for "goodness" to remain "goodness", badness/evil must be CONDEMNED.

...that's why He says....

Romans 12:19
"Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord".

God is not blind.

Joel 3:21
"I will avenge their blood, and I will not clear the guilty".

We who LOVE Him and are righteous are FORGIVEN if we have a holy/righteous spirit/demeanor that is compatible with HIS eternal spirit.

As always, verses are from the RSV (it does make a difference, the KJV was made for the Church of England, it says the Jews celebrated EASTER instead of PASSOVER, Acts 12:4, and other discrepancies).