Were Paul and Yeshua liars?

Evangelica said:

Here is the verse

Eph 2:14-15

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,


What part of it don't you understand? It can't get any plainer. I didn't write it, it's in the bible. To argue is to argue against scripture. First you need to deal with that before going into detail as to what is or isn't law, commandment, regulation.
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Awww. but I am not arguing with scripture.. I agree with it.. and explained how in my explanation I gave you... Like I said before,

Go down to your local court house
Ask to see the "ordinances".. "regulations" "laws"
They will ask on what subject.

Because these laws are dealing with the who, what, where, when, and how of the application of the Law.

When you understand what the Paul is saying, then you can understand what laws... They were the covenant section of the Laws... Not the Law of God itself.

John Wesley said ...

"Having abolished by his suffering in the flesh the cause of enmity between the Jews and gentiles, even the law of ceremonial commandments, through his decrees - Which offer mercy to all; see Col_2:14. That he might form the two - Jew and gentile. Into one new man - one mystical body."

In this John Wesley is pointing to the traditions of the Jews who like Peter saw them as a law of separation of the "unclean from the clean"

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

This law that Peter is speaking of in Acts 10:28 is not a scriptural law, there is no law from Mount Sinai that separates the Jew from a fellow believer in God..

John Wesley believed that it was the [traditions of men as Yeshua said] 'law of ceremonial commandments" of the Jews that Paul was talking about in this passage.

Evangelica said:

Please point out where it is incorrect. Am I to accept your word instead of God's?

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The problem lies within what is known about problems with the many different translations of scripture.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

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Compared to:

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace (NKJV)

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The latter quote is more reflective of what Paul is expressing.

the law of commandments -> contained in ordinances.

One would have to see what "ordinances" are being referred to. Most of Christianity sees it as the writings of Moses as a whole, when Paul's statement does not emphatically state that.

To put it in a familiar word, the law of commandments contained in ordinances are doctrines. Mainstream teachings within Judaism of Paul's day about the writings of Moses that separated Jew from Gentile, and condemned the latter to be something inferior to the promises of salvation through Christ.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him." (Rom 10:12)

Heber said:

Where, in the Bible, does it say this is so, please?

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Eph 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship[a] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;[b] 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Heber said:

But that is NOT the same as you claimed for the Church. You claimed that the Church has the authority to determine...which parts of Scripture are valid for us today- that is miles from your 'supporting' text. This is a prime example of what I have said - the exegesis is totally incorrect, and out of context as well.

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I'm living out my salvation with fear and trembling. Hopefully you are doing the same.

God bless

btw, if the church can't figger out what is fulfilled and unfilfilled prophesy then what is the purpose of it?

Evangelica said:

I'm living out my salvation with fear and trembling. Hopefully you are doing the same.

God bless

btw, if the church can't figger out what is fulfilled and unfilfilled prophesy then what is the purpose of it?

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Assembly.. fellowship.. worship as a congregation...

Which church? Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, COGIC? Who has the authority to decide which laws go and which ones stay? What does the church do with all the statements G~d made that "these commandments are for all your generations"? To make a blanket statement that the church now has all the authority gives too much variation and interpretation depending on who's in charge at the moment. When G~d tells me in His Word I am to obey this command through all my generations, and He tells me that I am to teach these commands to my children when I rise up and lay down and when I am walking along the way, then that is what I am to do. Through all the generations.

ShirChadash said:

so what of this then?

mat 5 of the Christian writings:
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Shir,

It's pretty well understood, both by the Jewish k'lal and normative Chrstianity, that the teachings of Paul and Joshua were (and are) at odds.

Umm, for me this is what I believe...
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
-Galatians 2:20-21

Heber said:

And if there is no Law then he died in vain because grace would not be needed! Grace is given when we fall short of following his law - no law therefore means no need for grace and no need for Yeshua. Simple, really.

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Anyone who reads the book of Galatians will understand what Paul is really trying to say so let the Bible speaks for itself. Spouting and trying o prove our point reduces the effectiveness of the scripture. Verse 17 clearly says "is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!". Eveyone should read the context of the quoted verses instead of focusing to one quoted verse. Jesus didn't destroy the law and the prophets. Relying to follow the law and thinks it will give them extra righteous or to be saved is the danger. Laws aren't useless as many thinks, these are how life works. God's laws are given because He loves us. Only slaying any lambs to cover our sins isn't to be applied or to be followed anymore. Laws are instructions for us, it's not must do in order to b saved. If anyone wants to prosper and have a good healthy/life, understand the laws given by God. It's still working, God didn't abolish His own laws so I don't follow people who preaches "we're under grace so no need to follow the laws and the Old testament."

Compare Jeremiah 6:16, Matthew 11:29 and Matthew 5:17-20.

Heber said:

I was not arguing against the validity of the Law - I was arguing the exact opposite, adding to what you had written. I was pointing out the logical conclusion of saying that there is no Law. Please read my post more carefully!

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I know, my pronouns are plural so I was refering to everybody

The Bible is the only authority on earth, to answer the question of authority. But we must take care to quote the passages in context. The Noachian covenant has at least a forever clause in it regarding the destruction of the earth with water does it not? Are we to forgo any subsequent covenants to that forever covenant? Is it also not as scriptural that the world will be destroyed again but by fire?

We must take care not to cling to pet passages of scripture to the detriment of all else or other verses which supersede the favored verse...