Acts 15:1 & 15:10

a Jew would not think of not standing up for the Torah..

ST point of clairificaion for me -
Are you a convert or Abraham's seed raised in Judaism?

ST point of clairificaion for me -
Are you a convert or Abraham's seed raised in Judaism?

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My story is fully explained in these forums, I have nothing to hide. Though I know there isn't an ounce of earnesty in your question, I'll answer anyway:
My grandfather (mother's side) escaped the clutches of death during WWII and came here from Poland. His family, upon arriving in the US converted to Christianity. My grandmother on my mother's side is not Jewish. My paternal line is also Jewish, but also converted to Christianity a few generations ago. I was raised with little more than a fascination of Judaism as most of the "jewishness" has purposefully been hidden from my generation of the family. My parents believe we left those things behind on purpose to now pursue Jesus.... after much study, I disagreed.

My wife, too, has a similar story. Her grandparents converted to Christianity when arriving here to the US from Greece.

We fully converted to Judaism about 4-5 years ago now. We regularly attended synagogue for 5 years prior to our conversion and were maintaining observance long before our conversion. We were formally converted before a Beit Din, formally studied conversion with our Rabbi for over a year, went to an Orthodox Mikvah, and I underwent a Hatafat Dam Brit (heb. דם ברית "Drop of the blood [of the] Covenant"). After that we both made our formal declaration before the congregation.

For a long time before we started pursuing Judaism, I studied MJ'ism formally and informally. I've taken classes in numerous places and also enrolled in MBI's (messianic) online Yeshivah. I've been to literally dozens and dozens of MJ congregations, and helped establish two. Before that, I also studied at a Christian Seminary.

So I have somewhat a formal and informal education in all three areas, Christian, Messianic, and now Jewish.

To answer your question: both.

But, as you may or may not know, one is not allowed to remind a convert of their past. It is forbidden in Jewish law. Of course, you're free from that as you don't follow Judaism, but your question only seems dubious knowing your antagonistic approach to me in the past.

simchat_torah said:

I remember this group. 7 congregations does not make up the entirety of MJ'ism. It doesn't make up 10% of MJ'ism. It doesn't make up 1% of MJ'ism. Of course, this is ignoring the dubious "rabbinical" standing of those on the council..... more on that later if interested, but this can readily be dismissed as Beit Din representing MJ'ism.

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What do you mean 7 congregations?

In your opinion. Orthodox don't consider these to be hardships, and they find much joy in these observances. To you, who didn't grow up with these traditions, it is difficult to see the Joy and light from such things. That doesn't mean it is a hardship. Only to you is it a hardship.

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ST I am sad that the chip on your shoulder keeps you from getting past your past.
The reason I asked you about your background is due to your observation of my background. You see, yours is very much like mine. My grandparents (mother's) side also came to America from East Germany with the intention of leaving any Jewishness behind. She assimilated into the Baptist church. My grandfather however left even his G~d and was an atheist. He continued to only speak Yiddish in the house but that was all that was left. It wasn't until I found this little secret that the pieces fell into place as to why my oldest aunt said and did some of the things she said and did. So we are quite the same in our discoveries.
Believe it or not - we are not out to get you.

There is no intent to slander your personal character. You tend to react instead of just responding. Your sig. speaks volumes. Your last comment was from your heart. There was no sarcasm, just what I perceive as genuine interaction. That makes for good debate and dialog.

My signature about the Joowish conspiracy was something that all Jews here on the forums had in their signature at one time, and it was originally written by Talmidah. Trust me, you're not seeing some insight into my heart from that line.

Einstein's quote, and the psalms reference are my sig everywhere on all forums.

sigh - should we take this to a PM so I can speak freely without worrying we will both get reported for derailing a thread?

simchat_torah said:

Even here on this very forum you have messianics who declare hate for the oral law, or call it of satan, etc. Yet they wear a Tallit or kippah to services.

So I ask again, where is that line?

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Not true, only where it stands as strong as Torah does, or over shadows Torah in a bad way.......I wouldnt subject my self to Oral the way I would Torah, thats just the way it is, but no one I know has said its Satanic.....Its just not IMO God's best, as it puts an additional yoke on the believer, and Yeshua spoke against some of that as putting a weight on the people not meant to be there(His burden is light, his yoke easy)...He was pretty convincing and it seems in many cases History will bear it out even today..... Lighting Shabbat candles doesnt produce a burden for me or my family, but having to do it so many minutes before shabbat begins which is one of the rules would, thats when you see the mammas yelling hurry up and getting frustraited at her family, or you see the mammas lighting the candles all alone so as not to infringe on another rule to obey this one and the family misses out on the big event....the begining of Shabbat.....we just light them when everyone is ready to begin ignoring all those extra fences.

Having a Shabbat Shalom is our only rule for Shabbat, if we guard our Shalom , I feel we have guarded the Shabbat

But thats just me and my family

but no one I know has said its Satanic....

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That very statement was made here previously on the forums. In fact, many Messianics are still under the impression that the Talmud has dirty things to say about Jesus (point in fact: the talmud never mentions jesus once)

simchat_torah said:

Then why the desperate need to do such every time you address me? (just like the comment about my sig)

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If you keep saying that your part of a Jewish conspiracy, people may start believing it.

Lighting Shabbat candles doesnt produce a burden for me or my family, having to do it so many minutes before shabbat

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Yet many Christians would say it is a burden to refrain from eating pork.

thus I must restate my question: Where is the line drawn?

f you keep saying that your part of a Jewish conspiracy, people may start believing it.

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Its a joke, sarcasm.

There is no such thing as a global Jewish conspiracy. Yet many believe it exists to this day.
YouTube - Protocols.

simchat_torah said:

There is no such thing as a global Jewish conspiracy. Yet many believe it exists to this day.
YouTube - Protocols.

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One of my favorite songs!

freakin hilarious to those "in the know"

simchat_torah said:

freakin hilarious to those "in the know"

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Not so funny, because there is scripture that talks about a Jewish conspiracy. And beside that, there are many Hebrews who belong to secret societies.

simchat_torah said:

That very statement was made here previously on the forums. In fact, many Messianics are still under the impression that the Talmud has dirty things to say about Jesus (point in fact: the talmud never mentions jesus once)

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I remember that too, but not the way you do.....Jesus taught from the oral law a few times, so its not the words but how they are used .... If they bring clarity that strengthens understanding of the Torah fine, but from what I have seen they can often stand as tall as Torah....not good... and in many ways the oral can even replace it not good again.... Im not looking at it as one entity, but as something that has pieces that can bless and pieces that can burden.....I think as long as you want us to take the Oral Torah all or nothing, you wont be happy with us.... as we(or I) just cannot do that.

OK ST lets try to get back to the OP. You keep bringing up this line we Messianics need to toe. Obviously we can't measure up to your ideal. So lets hear your take on Judiasm's line. What is your line? Do you pick and choose halacha or do you follow completely an Orthodox standard of Oral Torah?

I believe the court system is what Yeshua was complaining about, we follow his authority and Torah as he directs us....as God directs us

simchat_torah said:

No, I follow my beit din.
I take the typical Judaic stance that the Torah lays out the following:
the Torah must be followed by a community and communal standards are created by the courts established by Moses.

I'm not so blind as to believe:
1) These courts are perfect (that is why halacha evolves over time to fit the community of Jews)
2) There is a direct transcendence from Moses to the modern day Beit Din (There is not. however, there are rules in place for how a Beit Din is established)

Gentiles fall outside the power of a Beit Din. However, a righteous gentile may submit themselves to a Beit Din for oversight if they so desire. A Beit Din only rules over a community of Jews, Gentiles are not bound to these formalities, only to upholding the covenant made with Noah. Obviously, however, those who seek to become proselytes must follow Judaic code.

I find it stranger and stranger as days go by (post-Messianic phase for me) that Gentiles wish to follow various Halachic standards, yet cast the rest away. This idea of picking and choosing something we've committed to follow as a community seems quite odd. I'm only asking where the line is drawn (what standard is used) to pick certain observances yet leave others behind. To take from a rich and ancient tradition only small fragments that seem personally pleasing doesn't fit into the idea behind halacha itself.
1) Halacha was created for a community to observe the Torah together.
2) Halacha was created by a specific court system for a people to submit unto.
Yet neither of these seem to be a concern to Messianics who "pick and choose" random observances created by the Jewish Beit Din.

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