Why does Christianity condemn gays?

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2ndRateMind

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God forgives and cleanses anyone who repents and turns from sin whether it be fornication, adultery or in this case homosexual acts. He then gives grace to allow us all to live a life that is pleasing to Him. Liberal churches preaching tolerance of homosexual behaviour think they are loving the homosexual. They twist scripture and use warped logic to categorise such behaviour as normal. In reality they deumanize homosexuals, portarying them as mere animals, unable to resist their 'natural' desires. This removes moral responsibilty from them belying the fact that we are created in the image of God with the power to make moral choices.

...

The Liberal approach, proffering an argument to allow homosexuals to continue as they were, is ultimately condemning those who heed such advice to the promise made in I Cor 6:9 of being shut out of the Kingdom of God.

I still don’t think you’ve quite cottoned on to the difference we have, Crankitup. I am going to try to phrase this carefully, because there is quite enough heat already on this thread. The basic premise I work from is that a sin is a ‘state of being’ that prevents one from loving God, or one's fellow humans. All you need to do to win the argument, as far as I am concerned, is demonstrate that a homosexual disposition does so prevent, necessarily.

If you can’t, then I move onto the next step: that tolerance is the duty we owe each other to preserve our own God-given freedoms. I do not think this is ‘warped logic’; it is a simple recognition that where we do no harm, we ought have, and defend, the right to do as we please.

No one, least of all me, has any interest in dehumanising a homosexual, or portraying them as a mere animal, incapable of resisting his/her natural desires. And I am particularly careful to resist the removal of moral responsibility from anyone – but I think we need apply our morals justly, fairly, without fear or favour towards either homo- or hetero-sexual inclinations. If we are to condemn, say, promiscuity, let us condemn it impartially among all four sexualities.

As to whether a homosexual is automatically shut out of the kingdom of heaven, I just can’t see it. But as to whether a homophobe is shut out of the kingdom of heaven – well, the spite speaks volumes.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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one11

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God is not prejudiced against sin. God has reasons for His dislike of it. A prejudice is an unreasoning hatred.

I hope you will not leave this forum, or if you do, come back to visit us occasionally. But remember that it is a 'philosophy and ethics' forum, and that philosophy is an austere discipline that demands the rational justification of a position. It is not a place to come to get prejudices confirmed.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

I was using the word in a legal term, as Lord is judge over all, and he has pre-judged sin. It is finished! If this isn't the legal term I am looking for regarding sin, someone please direct me.

Definition:

[13th century. Via French< Latin praejudicium "judgment in advance" < judicium "judgment"]
bullet.gif
trans.gif
prej&#183;u&#183;diced adjective
without prejudice without doing any harm to any legal right or claim that somebody has (formal)
 
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2ndRateMind

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I was using the word in a legal term, as Lord is judge over all, and he has pre-judged sin. It is finished! If this isn't the legal term I am looking for regarding sin, someone please direct me.

[13th century. Via French< Latin praejudicium "judgment in advance" < judicium "judgment"]
bullet.gif
trans.gif
prej&#183;u&#183;diced adjective
without prejudice without doing any harm to any legal right or claim that somebody has (formal)

That's a rather archaic usage. My dictionary has:


prejudice noun 1 an unreasoning opinion or like or dislike of something; racial prejudice. 2 harm to someone's rights ...

and

prejudge verb form a judgement before full information is available.


Oxford Dictionary, OUP, Oxford, 2000

Hope that helps, best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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Nadiine

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God is quite prejudice against sin.

The reason I want a schism is because nothing any gay person on this forum has said has built me up in my faith, but is rather causing it to stumble.

If you can show me one post by a gay person who is building someone up in the Christian faith, then I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I must leave this forum and seek a true Christian forum of like-minded believers, as like-minded believers is what Jesus wants, not anarchy.

If one sin is okay, all sins are okay period. Once you take one domino out when they are stood up side by side, then they all fall.
Welcome to CF & why so many evangelical Christians have left for
greener pastures.

This site wants to be inclusive to anyone who feels like grabbing a
Christian icon & if they have one, they can spew all sorts of serious heresies, deny YHWY Himself & promote any sort of immorality in God's name. (just as long as a tiny few
things aren't attacked like a Trinity...)

There's a skeleton crew left here that continues to challenge this
crap being peddled around here.

No, we don't want a "monopoly" on the site, we want Christianity to
at least be properly defined so that we have a basic common ground of what
Christianity is & then we can discuss & debate the doctrines that are
less clear in scripture & other valid differences... at least in the same Spirit.

On this site, we don't even have basic Christianity accepted - the very
basics are challenged at every thread & it's beyond tiring.
No doubt even to the skeptics as they read the same redundance &
arguing.

I'd love to say alot more, but rules don't permit me to.

What I will say is that we have people claiming Christianity who
call YHWY a "monster" & "evil" (due to the OT) ... I'm utterly disgusted
& offended that this is allowed here as my God is insulted & rejected by
people who grab Christian icons
:swoon:

Ecumenism doesn't work & won't work with God's sheep -
the 2 are oil & water & there will always be division becuz I'm
not called to unify with secular humanistic theology or philosophy.
 
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True_Blue

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Thank you, True_Blue, for the benefit of your point of view. I am persuaded that murder is a bad idea, but not that homsexuality should be condemned in the terms, or for the reasons, you give.

List them. [The Bible verses against homosexuality

K, before your read the list, note that I Corinthians 6:11 says that homosexuals can be redeemed.

Here's the list:

Deuteronomy 23:18: You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both.
1 Kings 14:24: There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
1 Kings 15:12: He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made.
1 Kings 22:46: He rid the land of the rest of the male shrine prostitutes who remained there even after the reign of his father Asa.
2 Kings 23:7: He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the LORD and where women did weaving for Asherah.
Job 36:14: They die in their youth, among male prostitutes of the shrines.
1 Corinthians 6:9: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Romans 1:26: Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
I Timothy 1:8-11: "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted."
Jude 1:6-7: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."
Genesis 19 [The whole chapter].
Judges 19-21, especially 19:23.
Genesis 2:24. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

Here's an extremely important verse in this discussion by Jesus Christ: Matthew 5:17: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
 
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Crankitup

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Yes, though I rather think that because you find it detestable, for no reason I can discover ...

If you can't see what is detestable and loathsome about sodomy for instance, it's pointless discussing this further with you.

BTW, are you gay?
 
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Crankitup

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today's version of "Christianity":
do what you want & live however you feel is right. . .
God's word doesn't matter anymore.

Sorry, I lived like that for years before I converted & I have no intention on
following faulty philosophy based on the world's standards which didn't help me
any and in fact, led me to a very empty & purposeless existance.

That's what defines a Christian from the world.

Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,
which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.


Perfect choice of scripture.

The question is will he listen to it?
 
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Crankitup

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Yes, I prayed today for a long time today and I feel he is calling me away. Not to greener pastures necessarily, but to something else of what I don't know yet.

I don't like the God hating here either, not to mention one can easily study the OT if they are on the computer. They claim to be wise, but they can't do research? Although, the wikipedia is not helping Christian seekers learn anything. And, that's a big part of the problem. But, it's like they make Christians do all the work for them when they obviously have a computer, but they can't look up stuff themselves?

For instance that thread, "God on the Dock". God is a genocidal god, therefore this can't be the right God? Right? No, wrong. If you study the Amalekites one can easily find that the Amalekites struck first at the Hebrews, so self defense is now genocide?

Genocide and self defence are two different things.

I'll wait to see what God is calling me to do because I'm not clear on that yet. But my heart is open. I feel a calling for preparation, but preparation of what I'm not sure yet.

I would be sad to see you go. You've made a lot of good points and not just in this thread.

BTW, regarding the 'God in the Dock' thread, I made a comprehensive post in that thread which deals with the issue. 2ndrate invited me to contribute to his thread, indeed he said he was looking forward to it, and yet he appears to have ignored my post or missed it.
 
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2ndRateMind

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I don't like the God hating here either...

For instance that thread, "God on the Dock". God is a genocidal god, therefore this can't be the right God? Right? No, wrong. If you study the Amalekites one can easily find that the Amalekites struck first at the Hebrews, so self defense is now genocide?

Genocide and self defence are two different things.

No one hates God, on this forum, from what I have read. The question is, what kind of God is He? I don't believe for one minute that He is genocidal, but according to the OT, that is precisely what He is. And I have selected only one example. So, I give my allegience unreservedly to the loving father of Jesus, and not to the warrior king of Samuel. And that leaves me wondering precisely how accurate the OT is in it's representation of God, if it can be so mistaken over such a vital matter.

The idea, incidentally, is not to destroy anybody's faith, but to render it stronger by moral examination, so that the God we are left with is truly perfect, and not just expedient for this agenda, or that. God has been recruited often enough into our temporal, political struggles; it is time we freed him from such pettiness, and turned our attention to what actually is right, as opposed to what we merely want to be right.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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2ndRateMind

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If you can't see what is detestable and loathsome about sodomy for instance, it's pointless discussing this further with you.

No, I truly can't. Even if I could, it wouldn't matter; I don't like beetroot, or brussels sprouts, but I can accept that other people do. You seem to want to project your loathing and detestation onto the whole of humanity, for no better reason than that they shouldn't upset your sensibilities. I suggest that a more mature approach would indicate a higher spritual stature.

BTW, are you gay?

Does that matter? If so, why?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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Crankitup

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No one hates God, on this forum, from what I have read. The question is, what kind of God is He? I don't believe for one minute that He is ....

Let's be honest 2ndrate. You don't believe God exists at all.

In the 'About Me' section of your profile you have picked 'Atheistic Evolution' as your view regarding the origin of life. That was your selection from the alternatives available which are;

Young Earth Creation/Old Earth Creation/Gap Theory/Theistic Evolution/Atheistic Evolution

Atheistic Evolution is defined as a belief that "there is no God and that life can and did emerge naturally from preexisting non-living building blocks under the influence of natural laws."

Definition sourced from gotquestions.org in their article about Theistic Evolution.

In case you're tempted to change your profile to make a liar of me, here's a screenshot;

Screenshot.jpg



It's time for you to be straight with us I think.
 
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Crankitup

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No, I truly can't.

You can't see what's detestable about the act of sodomy? Let me give you a hint. That orifice was designed to evacuate human waste. It wasn't designed for sexual intercourse.

Does that matter? If so, why?

Does it matter if you're gay? Well it does to God, but since you've made it abundantly clear to us that it doesn't matter to you, why not tell us?
 
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2ndRateMind

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Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,
which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

I do not believe that I have advocated a hollow and deceptive philosophy. A hollow and deceptive philosophy, from where I sit, is a philosophy without grounding in reason. The kind of philosophy, for example, that suggests that on the basis of prejudice alone, we should deny a solace to others that we have no intention of foregoing ourselves.

And the principles of Christ: Love God, and love each other, do not, to my mind, justify homophobia.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Let's be honest 2ndrate. You don't believe God exists at all.

In the 'About Me' section of your profile you have picked 'Atheistic Evolution' as your view regarding the origin of life. That was your selection from the alternatives available which are;

Young Earth Creation/Old Earth Creation/Gap Theory/Theistic Evolution/Atheistic Evolution
Atheistic Evolution is defined as a belief that "there is no God and that life can and did emerge naturally from preexisting non-living building blocks under the influence of natural laws."


It's time for you to be straight with us I think.

LOL, you do make me laugh, in your attempts to discredit me.

Actually, I believe that there is a God, and that He is morally perfect, and unpolluted by human projections, desires, wants, ambitions and cravings.

I believe that life can and did emerge naturally from preexisting non-living building blocks under the influence of natural laws.

I believe that God created those natural laws for the purpose of creating living creatures capable of freely choosing to love Him.

I chose atheistic evolution, because none of the other options seemed to describe my beliefs, and this was closest. I would truly hate to be identified with 'creationist science', for example.

EDIT: Theistic evolution, the other option, would have implied that God interferes with evolution, and I do not think there is any evidence for that, or that His plan needed tinkering with once it was implemented. /EDIT

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind
 
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Crankitup

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Actually, I believe that there is a God, and that He is perfect, and unpolluted by human projections, desires, wants, ambitions and cravings.

I believe that life can and did emerge naturally from preexisting non-living building blocks under the influence of natural laws.

I believe that God created those natural laws for the purpose of creating living creatures capable of freely choosing to love Him.

I chose atheistic evolution, because none of the other options seemed to describe my beliefs, and this was closest. I would truly hate to be identified with 'creationist science', for example.

You didn't have to pick Atheistic Evolution to achieve that aim. The three views that are associated with creation science are Young Earth Creation, Old Earth Creation, and Gap Theory.

The backpedaled view you have given above fits in with a Theistic Evolutionary framework, not an Atheistic one.
 
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2ndRateMind

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You can't see what's detestable about the act of sodomy? Let me give you a hint. That orifice was designed to evacuate human waste. It wasn't designed for sexual intercourse.?

Plenty of people use it that way, though, but homosexually and heterosexually. If they enjoy it, who am I, you, or anyone else to spoil their fun?


Does it matter if you're gay? Well it does to God, but since you've made it abundantly clear to us that it doesn't matter to you, why not tell us?

Well, I just wanted to see if you did have a reason, for wanting to know. I guess the only way to find out is to come clean. I am as hetero as they come, although currently celibate. Not because I think it virtuous, I hasten to add, but simply because I have found that that is what suits me best.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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