Bush saves the big 3.

Billnew · Dec 19, 2008

Bush has announced he will use money already authorized to save the Automakers.
Breaking news on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/19/auto.bailout/index.html

Can we get Bush out before he spends more money? Someone call Obama see if he could be ready by Jan 9th?

The Senate was not happy with the automakers answers on getting back on their feet.
But Bush just hands them the money.
Hopefully he tied some strings to the money.

JustOneWay · Dec 19, 2008

Bush didn't save them, because there is no saving them unless people start buying cars. He just gave them some money so they could limp to the hospice for car manufacturers.

blueapplepaste · Dec 19, 2008

This is just delaying the inevitable. US car makers made sub-standard mediocre cars for too long and now they're paying the price.

jamesrwright3 · Dec 19, 2008

We also need to eliminate things such as the two fleet rule which is hampering our manufacturers

http://www.pewfuelefficiency.org/pdf/all-about-the-two-fleet-rule.pdf

utdbear · Dec 19, 2008

They also start out $2k in the hole per car because of union contracts. Hopefully this is only a short delay to Ch. 11 where they can quash all of that garbage.

<--- Owns a Chevy Truck

chaz345 · Dec 19, 2008

blueapplepaste said:
This is just delaying the inevitable. US car makers made sub-standard mediocre cars for too long and now they're paying the price.

The sub-standard cars pretty much ended a couple of decades ago. The problem is that they seem to have a hard time making what the American public really wants.

Look at some of the cars that Ford makes in/for the European market, they are some of the more popular, and better made ones out there so the problem isn't a lack of knowhow. What's different between here and Europe? Could the UAW contracts, and the us versus them mentality that they create between labor and management be a significant part of the picture?

Zlex · Dec 19, 2008

With AWI at near $40k/yr, why should any also struggling folks earning less than $40k/yr be bailing out folks earning more than $40k/yr?

The deciding factor in our 'bailout for The Some' tribal free-for-some is, proximity to crony connections in DC, no matter how bought.

If there is a 'common government' plan to 'bailout' our struggling economies, then, make that a 'common bailout' plan, not a 'who's your Daddy?/let's let the gladhanders pick winners and losers' based plan.

The current graceless political clawing going on in DC is just flat out unsightly. The entire town should burn to the ground, Democrats and GOP.

And, pretty much is.

If the CEOs walk away with billions from the public trough, and yet are still being rewarded the same as 'success', then what we are going to create in America is a redefinition of 'success', fueled by a corollary to Gresham's Law.

But, ditto goes to the mobbed up labor force paying for its second bass boat and 8 weeks paid vacation.

I and millions of small business folks and self employed taxpayers want someone to subsidize 8 weeks paid vacation for us, too, (not really, that is exactly what used to define succe$$ in America, not wanting something so blatantly spine softening), so ... who is that going to be?

This 'free-for-some' the tribe is trying to throw is tubing many of our economies... but not all of them. If it figures it out in time, there is hope. If not, then ... there is none.

In the present entrenched fascism, there is none. Since the price exacted for these failed CEOs and their failed workers is not in fact quality time reassessing the effort in a gov't surplus trailer somewhere, you must ask 'why not?', but you don't have to wonder for long. The reason is, these folks have bought and paid for their influence in DC. The reason is, the cronies are taking care of their own. The reason is, the only arbiter in the current free-for-some is the degree of separation one has from a connected crony in DC. If your little commercial group effort is not sufficiently cronied up in DC, then forget it, but make sure you pay your taxes to support those who are.

GeorgeKillen · Dec 19, 2008

He should have let them file for bankruptcy.

What a way to break the power of some of the unions.

Have a nice day.

HollandScotts · Dec 19, 2008

I don't seea big problem with this. Personally, I'ld rather see detroit get the money than the corrupt banks. We've held the auto industry over a volcano, and we've hardly put a match under the feet of the big banks.

Second, with our economy the way it is, the collapse of 2 of the big three at this time would put us in a great depression. If we have to spend a hundred billion dollars just so they can go bankrupt next year, then it's a deal. Because if they tank now, we're not going to be able to undue the damage for anything close to a hundred billion.

Look at some of the cars that Ford makes in/for the European market, they are some of the more popular, and better made ones out there so the problem isn't a lack of knowhow. What's different between here and Europe? Could the UAW contracts, and the us versus them mentality that they create between labor and management be a significant part of the picture?

Actually, I think it's the UAW that stops the production of those cars here in America. Also, many of those cars are deisel. People are reluctant to buy deisel over here because it's a dollar higher than gas to to our ignorant politicians and the ultra low sulfur standard.

HerbieHeadley · Dec 19, 2008

utdbear said:
They also start out $2k in the hole per car because of union contracts. Hopefully this is only a short delay to Ch. 11 where they can quash all of that garbage.

<--- Owns a Chevy Truck

<-----Owns a Ford, ....in a sea of Toyota!

Buy American, teh job you save may be your own!

chaim · Dec 19, 2008

It is a rare day, but we agree completely!

jamesrwright3 said:
We also need to eliminate things such as the two fleet rule which is hampering our manufacturers

http://www.pewfuelefficiency.org/pdf/all-about-the-two-fleet-rule.pdf

GeorgeKillen · Dec 19, 2008

Here is a list of things made by UAW workers so we know what not to buy.

Ford didn't get money though, so kudos to them. (They're probably in a better position because of the Crown Vic sales.

)

chaim · Dec 19, 2008

How do you suggest they do this? The average GM worker makes about $28 an hour, which is about the same as a Honda or Toyota worker. Most of the rest of the cost is for paying pensioners and health care. Do you suggest GM reneges on its promises to its retired workers? Or maybe they should stop offering health benefits? Both of which would just transfer the cost to the government anyway. This problem is not unique to GM, it is an issue with all older established businesses in the US. Because health care and retirement are linked to your employer, thus older businesses who have many retirees (who are living longer) have MUCH higher labor costs than younger business that are yet to have significant retirees. This is a fundamental flaw in the US system.

utdbear said:
They also start out $2k in the hole per car because of union contracts. Hopefully this is only a short delay to Ch. 11 where they can quash all of that garbage.

<--- Owns a Chevy Truck

HerbieHeadley · Dec 19, 2008

GeorgeKillen said:
Ford didn't get money though, so kudos to them. (They're probably in a better position because of the Crown Vic sales. )

Funny thing that most all Crown Victoria's are made in Canada...
But a really nice car.

Zlex · Dec 19, 2008

A 17.5 million unit/yr industry is painfully adapting to a 10 million unit/yr marketplace, no longer fueled by tear-off credit.

Here's a number to ponder: the average number of years that a person hangs on to a new car ... before buying a new new car.

It is a usually discretionary number. If what was 3.0 starts to push 4.0 or 5.0, that alone is a big drop in the demand for new cars.

It is fueled mostly by want -- and access to tear-off credit, not need.

There was a reason that we were being bombarded with car commercials on average every 8 seconds of our life. The reason was, the enabling power of irrational tear-off credit.

As long as the government doesn't screw things up by subsidizing the worst part of the 17.5 million unit /yr auto industry, the industry will adapt.

The government should focus instead, IMO, on ameliorating the impact on those impacted by the adjustment. Job training, regional job credits in other industries, direct payments as unemployment, and so on. But foregoing that, and instead, blowing air into a balloon with a gaping hole in it once kept inflated with the massive tear off credit once enabled by the tsunami of dollars trying to backwash into America from our massive trade imbalance is just postponing the inevitable.

There is no inherent birthright to a 17.5 million unit/yr auto industry in America. The market is trying to send us a message, and the government can at most muck things up by trying to artificially change the message.

blueapplepaste · Dec 19, 2008

chaz345 said:
The sub-standard cars pretty much ended a couple of decades ago. The problem is that they seem to have a hard time making what the American public really wants.

I agree that recently they've come out with some good cars that are reliable. Problem is that its too little too late.

Look at some of the cars that Ford makes in/for the European market, they are some of the more popular, and better made ones out there so the problem isn't a lack of knowhow. What's different between here and Europe? Could the UAW contracts, and the us versus them mentality that they create between labor and management be a significant part of the picture?

I never got this. When I went to Europe I was amazed at some of the cars Ford had there that I had never seen state side. Many people there raved about them. Yet we never saw any of them. UAW contracts may play a role in them sinking, but its minor compared to their (all the big 3) poor management and poor car designs.

At the end of the day they're failing because the rest of the world's manufacturer's progressed while the Big 3 sat idle too long.

Doctrine1st · Dec 19, 2008

Zlex said:
With AWI at near $40k/yr, why should any also struggling folks earning less than $40k/yr be bailing out folks earning more than $40k/yr?

The deciding factor in our 'bailout for The Some' tribal free-for-some is, proximity to crony connections in DC, no matter how bought.

If there is a 'common government' plan to 'bailout' our struggling economies, then, make that a 'common bailout' plan, not a 'who's your Daddy?/let's let the gladhanders pick winners and losers' based plan.

The current graceless political clawing going on in DC is just flat out unsightly. The entire town should burn to the ground, Democrats and GOP.

And, pretty much is.

If the CEOs walk away with billions from the public trough, and yet are still being rewarded the same as 'success', then what we are going to create in America is a redefinition of 'success', fueled by a corollary to Gresham's Law.

But, ditto goes to the mobbed up labor force paying for its second bass boat and 8 weeks paid vacation.

I and millions of small business folks and self employed taxpayers want someone to subsidize 8 weeks paid vacation for us, too, (not really, that is exactly what used to define succe$$ in America, not wanting something so blatantly spine softening), so ... who is that going to be?

This 'free-for-some' the tribe is trying to throw is tubing many of our economies... but not all of them. If it figures it out in time, there is hope. If not, then ... there is none.

In the present entrenched fascism, there is none. Since the price exacted for these failed CEOs and their failed workers is not in fact quality time reassessing the effort in a gov't surplus trailer somewhere, you must ask 'why not?', but you don't have to wonder for long. The reason is, these folks have bought and paid for their influence in DC. The reason is, the cronies are taking care of their own. The reason is, the only arbiter in the current free-for-some is the degree of separation one has from a connected crony in DC. If your little commercial group effort is not sufficiently cronied up in DC, then forget it, but make sure you pay your taxes to support those who are.

At 40K a year, the average wage in America for the average American, they know that the trickle down of the layoff is a actual reality and more powerful then the nonsense of the trickle down of upper income tax breaks.

GeorgeKillen · Dec 19, 2008

blueapplepaste said:
I agree that recently they've come out with some good cars that are reliable. Problem is that its too little too late.

I never got this. When I went to Europe I was amazed at some of the cars Ford had there that I had never seen state side. Many people there raved about them. Yet we never saw any of them. UAW contracts may play a role in them sinking, but its minor compared to their (all the big 3) poor management and poor car designs.

At the end of the day they're failing because the rest of the world's manufacturer's progressed while the Big 3 sat idle too long.

There's probably something in the thousands of pages of UAW contract about them selling those cars here.

Doctrine1st · Dec 19, 2008

I really don't understand this idea that its the UAW's fault that the American automotive CEO missed the boat in understanding how and what to manufacture and market?

The IAW wage is the same as the Foriegn Auto makers in those right to work states in which the Southern Congressional representives who sought to do their best to help Detriot go under.

Those Congressional representives who do this and those who wish to kill unions are about as anti-American as I can imagine.

GeorgeKillen · Dec 19, 2008

I really don't understand this idea that its the UAW's fault that the American automotive CEO missed the boat in understanding how and what to manufacture and market?

Well the UAW has done remarkable things to keep its members collecting money even if they aren't actually producing anything. One could reason that has a deleterious effect on the bottom line of these companies.

Those Congressional representives who do this and those who wish to kill unions are about as anti-American as I can imagine.

So it's anti-American to want to get rid of an extortion racket, which essentially is what a union is?

Bush saves the big 3.

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