Phil2:5-11

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fieldsofwind

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The scripture portrays how the "testator" must die.

You may say that means... the appointed one... or... it just might mean what the dictonary says about testator: One who has made a legally valid will before death.

Fact is... the covenant revolves around Christ. If Christ is not God come in the flesh, then why is He referred to as God in so many occasions?

Read Zechariah 12:10

Whom is speaking here? The Lord. This is Christ as well... because He is God who became man.

Isaiah 9:6... what does this say about Christ? (He is the Mighty God)

The covenant... Christ

take care

FOW
 
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Evangelion

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FOW -

The scripture portrays how the "testator" must die.

*snip*

It does nothing of the kind. Please go back and read my posts on this subject.

If Christ is not God come in the flesh, then why is He referred to as God in so many occasions?

The problem for you is that he isn't "referred to as God in so many occasions." You can't find any more than about 4 or 5 references to Jesus as elohim and theos - and in every case, the reference is titular, not ontological.

Read Zechariah 12:10

Whom is speaking here? The Lord. This is Christ as well... because He is God who became man.

Nonsense. :p

I suggest you read the following quote from a leading Trinitarian scholar:

  • The passage is quoted once and echoed once in the New Testament, and in both places the pronoun is not "me" but "him". This is not so significant in the place where the passage is merely echoed (Rev. I : 7, " and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him"), for that is not an exact quotation. Here the predicted looking to the one who was pierced is interpreted of the Second Advent of Christ.

    But in John 19:37 the piercing is interpreted of the piercing of Christ's side with a soldier's lance after His death on the cross, and here Zech. 12:10 is expressly quoted: "And again another scripture says, 'They shall look on him whom they have pierced'." It is a reasonable inference that this is the form in which the Evangelist knew the passage, and indeed the reading "him' instead of "me" appears in a few Hebrew manuscripts. The R.S.V. thus has New Testament authority for its rendering of Zech.12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."

    Why then is the R.S.V. criticized for conforming to the New Testament here? Because, if the reading "me" be retained, the reference would be to the speaker, who is God, and in view of the application of the passage in the New Testament, there are some who see here an anticipation of the Christian doctrine of our Lord's divine nature. The reading "me" is certainly quite early, for it appears in the Septuagint (which otherwise misses the point of the passage); but the New Testament seems to attach no significance to Zech. 12:10 as providing evidence for the deity of Christ...

    ...And, whoever the pierced one is, the fact that he is referred to elsewhere in the verse in the third person ("they shall mourn for him....and weep bitterly over him") suggests that he is Yahweh's representative (probably the anointed king), in whose piercing Yahweh Himself is pierced.

    Bruce, F. F. (1979), History of the Bible in English, 3rd Edition.
There, you see? It's all perfectly simple. :)

Isaiah 9:6... what does this say about Christ? (He is the Mighty God)

*snip*

So what? Other mortal men were called "god" in the OT, and in this regard Jesus is no different. The application of elohim to the Messiah is a titular reference, not an ontological one.

  • El Gibbor is probably an attributive adjective (‘mighty God’), though one might translate ‘God is a warrior’ or ‘God is mighty.’ Since this title is apparently used later (10:21, but cf. Hos. 3:5) for God, some have understood it as pointing to the king’s deity. Others argue that the title portrays the king as God’s representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see Hayes and Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). The latter sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. Having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king’s deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as ‘God’ because he ruled and fought as God’s representative on earth.

    […]

    Everlasting Father. This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the ‘Son’ is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the ‘Father.’) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of ‘father’ see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of ‘father’ is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 b.c.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: ‘To some I was a father, to others I was a mother.’ In another inscription (ca. 800 b.c.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him “a father and a mother” to his people. (See J. Pritchard, ANET, 499-500.)

    The use of ‘everlasting’ might suggest the deity of the king, but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king’s long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1 Kgs 1:31; Pss 21:4-6; 61:6-7; 72:5, 17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title ‘Mighty God’) is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.
Notice also the footnote in the New American Bible, in reference to Psalm 45:

  • O god: the king, in courtly language, is called ‘god,’ i.e., more than human, representing God to the people. Hebrews 1:8-9 applies Psalm 45:7-8 to Christ.
And again, the footnote in the New English Translation:

  • O God.
    The king is clearly the addressee here, as in vv. 2-5 and 7-9.
    Rather than taking the statement at face value, many prefer to emend the text because the concept of deifying the earthly king is foreign to ancient Israelite thinking (cf. NEB ‘your throne is like God’s throne, eternal’). However, it is preferable to retain the text and take this statement as another instance of the royal hyperbole that permeates the royal psalms. Because the Davidic king is God’s vice-regent on earth, the psalmist addresses him as if he were God incarnate. God energizes the king for battle and accomplishes justice through him. A similar use of hyperbole appears in Isa 9:6, where the ideal Davidic king of the eschaton is given the title ‘Mighty God’ (see the note on this phrase there).

    Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: ‘No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique’ (see M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67). Ps 45:6 and Isa. 9:6 probably envision a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king’s enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself.
Remember, God himself declared that there are “No gods beside me”, but also said to Moses that "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh”:

  • Exodus 7:1.
    And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Was it idolatrous for Moses to accept Aaron as his own prophet, even though he himself was not a literal god, nor even the God of Israel? :cool:
 
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fieldsofwind

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Posted by evangelion: "There, you see? It's all perfectly simple."

Yes... it is... if you would just believe the word as God has made it.

Pertaining to Zechariah

http://www.arlev.clara.net/zech26.htm#3

The phrase ‘on him’ is contained in some Hebrew manuscripts, but they are not usually considered to be the most reliable. Usually, it is the Greek, Syriac, Aramaic and Latin versions that are assumed to have retained a better transmission through the years that are used and which have, in place of ‘on him’, ‘to me’ - that is, the text runs

‘...when they look to Me whom they have pierced...’

As it’s Jehovah who’s speaking, the statement is all the more striking in view of the Lord speaking of Himself as being ‘pierced’.

The word for ‘pierced’ (Strongs Hebrew number 1856) is the one employed to denote a serious wound (Jer 37:10) that often resulted in death (Judges 9:54, I Samuel 31:4, Jer 51:4, Lam 4:9) and is often used when a shameful death is implied.

For example, Zech 13:3 speaks of the false prophet being pierced through his body when he utters lies in the name of the Lord, and Num 25:8 speaks of the act of Phineas who pierced the two bodies of an Israelite and a Moabite cult prostitute, killing them outright.

If the phrase ‘to Me’ is the original one employed (and I believe it is), then we aren’t looking at the Lord proclaiming Himself to be momentarily sad, sorrowful or grieved but witnessing a statement that proclaims that the wound He received at the hands of the Jerusalemites was such a serious blow that it was considered to be fatal.

Though I interpreted the verse under the previous section to primarily refer to the tribe of Judah, it should be noted that although the force of the word is fully in keeping with the type of wound that had been inflicted on some of the Judahites, it is quite incompatible with the statement (Zech 12:4) that

‘...upon Judah I will open My eyes...’

That is, that Judah will be protected from the judgment upon the nations that come against Jerusalem. It does not appear as if they have been ‘mortally wounded’ by the conflict up to that point in time when Jerusalem mourns and Judah fights in the midst of the Allied forces to reap a great victory.

What appears to be the correct application from the text points us forward to the spiritual salvation of the Jerusalemites, when they look upon their Messiah (that is, spiritually with faith rather than physically upon His return - 14:4-5) who they have previously wounded through the piercing of His body by crucifixion - John 19:37 applies this Scripture to Jesus though ‘on Him’ is not to be taken as a direct quotation. The writer has changed the quote into the third person to avoid confusion in his hearers and to apply it to the relevant situation. Ps 22:16 is also prophetic (Ps 22 being one of the ‘psalms of the cross’) though the word translated ‘pierced’ is not the same as that used in Zech 12:10 and its meaning has been hotly debated.
 
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Evangelion

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FOW -

Really... others were called "Mighty God"...

No, that is not what I claimed.

and look at the next chapter (10)... who is referred to as the Mighty God then?

*snip*

The Father. What's your point?

This is from your post... preserves that indeed... the "early greek" also contained the following pertaining to Zechariah 12:10

Yes, that is correct. So it is an early error, as Bruce takes care to point out. And guess what? When this passage is quoted in the NT, the error is corrected, and the "Trinitarian" reference is nowhere to be found.

So, where do you go from here? :cool:
 
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fieldsofwind

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Question is... where do you go!

Christ is called Mighty God as is the Father... do you know how many times they are referred to as the same thing?

Posted by evangelion: "And guess what? When this passage is quoted in the NT, the error is corrected, and the "Trinitarian" reference is nowhere to be found."

Which was explained in the last post...

Also, perhaps you didn't read: "The phrase ‘on him’ is contained in some Hebrew manuscripts, but they are not usually considered to be the most reliable. Usually, it is the Greek, Syriac, Aramaic and Latin versions that are assumed to have retained a better transmission through the years that are used and which have, in place of ‘on him’, ‘to me’ - that is, the text runs

‘...when they look to Me whom they have pierced...’

As it’s Jehovah who’s speaking, the statement is all the more striking in view of the Lord speaking of Himself as being ‘pierced’.

The word for ‘pierced’ (Strongs Hebrew number 1856) is the one employed to denote a serious wound (Jer 37:10) that often resulted in death (Judges 9:54, I Samuel 31:4, Jer 51:4, Lam 4:9) and is often used when a shameful death is implied.

For example, Zech 13:3 speaks of the false prophet being pierced through his body when he utters lies in the name of the Lord, and Num 25:8 speaks of the act of Phineas who pierced the two bodies of an Israelite and a Moabite cult prostitute, killing them outright.

If the phrase ‘to Me’ is the original one employed (and I believe it is), then we aren’t looking at the Lord proclaiming Himself to be momentarily sad, sorrowful or grieved but witnessing a statement that proclaims that the wound He received at the hands of the Jerusalemites was such a serious blow that it was considered to be fatal."

take care

FOW
 
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fieldsofwind

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Also... more on the old "greek" of Philippians 2

From here: http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/phil2.htm

"The purpose of this section of the book of Philippians was not to expound the logistics of the incarnation, but it was to serve as an example to the church at Philippi of true humility, so that they would not strive with one another, but look to the needs of one another (Philippians 2:1-4).

The structure of verses 6-11 is as follows: verses 6-8 speak of Christ’s activity; verses 9-11 speak of God’s activity. God’s activity is in response to Christ’s.

There is a general literary pattern found in this passage. It is one of humiliation, then exaltation; loss, then compensation; descent, then ascension.

There are many interpretive issues in this short little passage. The primary debate is over a two-stage, or three-stage Christology. The former presents Adoptionistic Christology (born an ordinary man—exaltation), while the latter presents an Incarnational Christology (was God—incarnated as a man—exalted). This is an issue of Christ’s ontological (pertaining to the nature and essential properties of existence) deity.

Those who see an Adoptionistic Christology being presented here see the passage as a parallel between Adam and Christ. Christ was merely a man like Adam. Whereas Adam tried to seize equality with God, Christ did not consider this seizing of equality to be right, and thus emptied Himself of his aspirations to be like God. Instead, He took on Himself the form of a servant, dedicating His life to obedience to God, even to the point of death. For this reason God has exalted him. Adam tried exalting himself, so was abased.. Christ willingly abased Himself, not trying to seize equality with God, and therefore was exalted.

This argument is based primarily from the Greek phrase en morfh|/| qeou/. It is argued that this is a reference to Genesis 2, when man was made in the image of God. The LXX, when translating the Hebrew of Genesis 2 uses the Greek word eikw/n, not morfh, although in the LXX these words are often used interchangeably.

One of the reasons for rejecting this idea is that the LXX not only uses a different noun, but even uses a different preposition, kata, for its translation. It is fairly evident that Paul is not alluding to Genesis 2, and that he is not drawing this phrase from the LXX of Genesis 2.

If an Adam/Christ parallel was intended in Philippians 2, it would seem that Paul would indicate such in the context. Instead, Adam’s name is never mentioned, and no illusion is made to Genesis 2. If anything at all, the OT referent to the kenosis passage is the Suffering Servant passages in Isaiah 43-54.

That this passage cannot be teaching a two-stage Christology is evident from the phrase en morphe theou huparchon. Huparchon is a present active particle, indicating that Christ was existing in the form of God before He submitted to His humiliation. He was already in the form of God. This is clear evidence for His ontological deity.

The phrase "thought it not robbery" comes from the Greek ouc a`rpagmon h`ghsato, The word a`rpagmon occurs only here in the NT. Outside of Biblical Greek, it is still rare, but has the basic meaning of "robbery" or "take advantage of." The latter fits the context better here. The point is that has to do with Christ, who was already existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be taken advantage of.

Instead of continuing to exist in the form of God, Christ "made himself of no reputation." The Greek word behind this phrase is kenow. This word has two different senses. Used in a metaphorical sense, it means "of no reputation" or "nothing." Used in a metaphysical sense it means "to empty." The NT usage, and Paul’s usage in particular, favors the metaphorical sense, although the metaphysical sense is used in the LXX of things being literally emptied out (like a jar or chest). Though either sense could be used here, the metaphorical sense is probably to be preferred because Paul is using the incarnation of Christ for an example of humiliation. The idea would be that "Christ made Himself nothing." This would fit well with Paul’s mention of the "empty pride" that the Philippians were asserting just a few verses earlier.

The question arises, then, as to what Christ emptied Himself of, or in what way He made Himself nothing? Some have suggested that He emptied Himself of the "form of God." This cannot be so from a logical basis, nor a grammatical basis. Grammatically, en morfh|/| qeou/ is a prepositional phrase modifying the relative pronoun o`j (who) which begins verse six. Logically speaking, how could Jesus empty Himself of His deity, and still be God?

The answer to the question of what Jesus emptied Himself from is to be found in the modal participial phrases following the kenosis phrase, which says that Jesus took on Himself the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of a man. These participles describe the manner in which Christ emptied Himself. He emptied Himself by adding to His existence as Deity, an existence of humanity. Whereas He was existing in the morfh of God, now He has taken on Himself the morfh of a servant. Being found in the fashion of a man, Christ humbled Himself to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

As a result of this willing humiliation on Christ’s part, going from glory to the form of a servant, God highly exalted Him, giving Him a name that is above every other name. Grammatically the name above every other name could be "Jesus" or "Lord." Both views have much to commend them, but that the latter is probably the name in view is due to the fact that Paul, a Jew, would not have considered the name Jesus to be above all names, considering it was a common name in his day. YHWH, the name of God, was said by the Greeks as kurioj (Lord). Although this word could be used for someone out of respect, not implying deity, the context makes it apparent that kurioj here is being used to designate YWHW. When this is compounded by the literary point that Paul was making, it becomes even more clear that kurioj is the name above all names. Paul, in giving an example of the humiliation that the Philippians should demonstrate showed the ultimate humiliation that God underwent in the incarnation. God came in the form of a servant (douloj). This is the lowest position a human being can occupy. In stark contrast to this is one who is called 'Lord.' A servant is never a lord. The two are as different as night and day. These two diametrically opposed positions are used by Paul to show the extent to which God will exalt someone who will first humble themselves. Christ took the ultimate humiliation as a douloj, but was then exalted to the place of kurioj over all. The one who was a servant will now be called 'Lord' by every human tongue. The one in the form of God, takes on the form of a servant, suffers death by the cross, and then is exalted, being called Lord.

The literary point of this passage is that even as Christ, who did not need to humble Himself, did humble Himself, and as a result was exalted, likewise the Philippian believers should humble themselves so that they too might be exalted."

take care, oh yea... and remember: existing in the form of God means exactly what it says... Christ was God. Also... if one wonders why the description is "in the form of, or in very nature"... one must realize that Christ had become flesh as well. However, the idea is very clear... (especially put together with the rest of the word of God)... that Christ is God who became flesh out of love.

FOW
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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What's wrong with that?

Look at the cross-references:

"For in Him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Even the book of Mormon has proofs for God's incarnation.
 
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Future Man

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*Note: The way the weather is acting, I may not be able to get all the post out before the connection is cut again.


Hello Ev and God bless-

>

Sorry this is a day or two late. We've had some pretty bad ice storms here. Trees splitting in two, power lines laying across roads and of course absolutely no electricity. :)

>

AV -

quote:I once was discussing Phil2 with a fellow Trintarian a good while back.

You would have done better to discuss it with someone who actually knew what he was talking about.

Then I should take your advice and do better in moving on from disussions with you :D. Gee, tell me again about Trinitarianism and what role Jesus *must* play in the role of creation. :rolleyes:

quote:Here is an excerpt from one of his emails.

Thankyou. I found it absolutely hilarious.

It's called 'over medication'. You ought to get that fixed. :D
This is simply a set-up by Ev to make himself look "good". A lack of argument on his part is usually the cause.

quote:You may want to check out those suggested books.

*snip*

What, more humour? Sure, I'm good for it!

Probably because it would be good practice to *read* the arguments you attempt to refute. Of course it seems lately that you don't even perform a simple skim. :(
 
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Future Man

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quote:One of the key points is getting all the evidence on the proper translation of hARPAGMOS before you - Wright is very good on this - check his footnotes for further references. He differs a bit with Martin, but not on any major point.

"Not on any major point", eh?

Well, this is what Martin had to say:

The association of thought is the Old Testament, and there is an implied contrast between the two Adams. Less probably it has been proposed that the temptation and fall of Satan (see Isaiah xiv) as interpreted by later Jewish writers is the clue to the passage...)

Hence, in conclusion to this section we could rightly say that a close consideration of verse 5 would tend to support a translation of verse 6 as saying that Christ Jesus was not "equal" to God nor did he attempt "a snatching" at an equality." A translation that says that Christ Jesus did not "cling to" an equality with God would make it difficult to see Paul's point in verse 5.
Martin, Ralph (1959), The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians: An Introduction and Commentary.

Yes, not on any major point. Evidently you don't know what was implied. I'd bet good money Evangelion lifted this quote out of some WTS material as they seem to misuse this guy as well. :D

Now to the rub of your problem as it pertains to your quote:

>
>>"A translation that says that Christ Jesus did not "cling to" an equality with God would make it difficult to see Paul's point in verse 5."
>

This is a rather large oversight. Read:

Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.

Verse 3 and 5 are precisely the key in understanding what Paul's idea is. Note that it is spoken to the *Phillipians*. Paul says to let "this mind [attitude] be in YOU". Now let's parallel this with the Trinitarian interpretation i.e.. 'Jesus possessed 'equality with God' but took the mindset of humility in that He did not "cling to" an equality with God. Paul's point in verse 5? Let us start off with the fact that the Phillipians were EQUALS to one another. They were all men. Yet Paul states they are to do to *each other* that which is run parallel with what Christ did in regards to God. That is to possess the mentality of humility towards one another depite the fact they are equals in being human.

We see a *perfect* example in the 'husband-wife' relationship.

Now read:

Phi 1:1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.

Note that these Phillipians are already Christians.

You need to identify the *problem* which motivated Paul to speak these above words. Were the Phillipians grasping for equality with God? No. They were grasping for equality/superiority over one another i.e. their fellow man.

I got a lot more to add to this, but I'm going to wait as I will parse this whole topic like I am currently doing with Jn1. ;)


:D Hah! Gee that looks like fun Ev! Can I beat the straw dummy too? :)
 
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Future Man

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quote:There's an article by Hooker (I think, maybe it's Hoover) that Wright cites, that is killer - he tracks all the known KOINE uses of hARPAGMOS and demonstrates that is means "grasp onto something one already has."
*snip*

This is either the most breathtaking example of ignorance that I have ever seen in my entire life, or the most breathtaking example of hubris. I can't decide which.

What I find interesting is that Evangelion did not even read, skim, review, or glance upon Hoover's argument, but passes final judgment in his initial response. Gee, you really ARE omnipotent! :rolleyes:
Note how later in his "rebuttal" below he does not even address the methodology of that which he called "ignorant".

Take note. This is what is referred to as "blowing smoke". :)


The Liddell-Scott-James Greek Lexicon (which includes a reference to Plutarch - the source that A. T. Robertson uses for his own definition of harpagmos - as well as a reference to Philippians 2), defines harpagmos thus:

harpag-mos , ho, robbery, rape, Plu.2.12a; ha. ho gamos estai Vett.Val.122.1 .

2. concrete, prize to be grasped, Ep.Phil.2.6; cf. harpagma 2.

Let's go ahead and cite Roberson while we're at it:

Robertson:

Phi 2:6 -
Being
(huparcho¯n). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparcho¯. In the form of God (en morphe¯i theou). Morphe¯ means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.
A prize (harpagmon). Predicate accusative with he¯ge¯sato. Originally words in &#775;mos signified the act, not the result (&#775;ma). The few examples of harpagmos (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to harpagma, like baptismos and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won (“robbery”).

>

I do not contend this [LS] definition either way as the context explains it well regardless. However this definition is not dedicated to Koine nor is it complete.

Here my point from above is solidified. Despite the fact that Hooker specifically made his case from *all* occurences in KOINE [as the email cite clearly stated], Ev continues to use a *classical* Greek lexicon. I find it interesting that Ev rarely if ever cites the BADG, a lexicon dedicated to NT Greek.

And yes that particular lexicon will be used in the future.
 
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Future Man

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That's pretty clear, IMHO.
Something's 'pretty clear' :).

Now let's see what the Bible has to say. Observe the following examples, which are listed in the 5th Edition of the Concordance to the Greek Testament, (1978) by Moulton, Geden and Moulton:
It was in the days of John the Baptizer that a situation first arose-a situation that still exists-in which the kingdom of heaven is stormed, and in which those who are eager to storm their way into it clutch at [harpazo] it.
Matthew 11:12; Barclay.

Or, how can anyone get into a giant's house and carry off [harpazo] his goods, unless he first binds the giant?
Matthew 12:29; C.B.Williams.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away[harpazo] what is sown in the heart
Matthew 13:19; New Revised Standard Version.

Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force [harpazo], withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
John 6:15; New International Version.

When the hired man, who is not a shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees a wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away; so the wolf snatches [harpazo] the sheep and scatters them.
John 10:12; Today's English Version.

I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one will ever snatch [harpazo] them out of my care.
John 10:28; Revised English Bible.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched [harpazo] Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more.
Acts 8:39; New American Standard Version.

And when a great dissension was developing, the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them and ordered the troops to go down and take [harpazo] him away from them by force and bring him into the barracks.
Acts 23:10; New American Standard Version.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up [harpazo] to God and to his throne.
Revelation 12:12; New American Standard Version.

Interesting. A derivitive dance amongst English translations. Too bad the argument he is supposed to be "refuting" isn't addressed. Tie this in with the below.


What is the common element in all these occurrences of harpazo? Not once is it used in the sense of retaining something, but always in a way of a change - in an attempt at gaining something not already possessed. Is the form of the word used in Philippians 2 (harpagmos) used with a different significance? The Expositor's Greek Testament (1976) leaves us in no doubt whatsoever:

No doubt? I love these subtle assertions in between the lines :D

We cannot find any passage where harpazo or any of it's derivatives has the sense of 'holding in possession', 'retaining'. It seems invariably to mean 'seize,' 'snatch violently'. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense 'grasp at' into one which is totally different, 'hold fast'.

In harmony with this exposition, the Interpreter's Bible (1999) says:

Since he [the Son] had this affinity with God, he might have aspired to 'equality' with him; he might have claimed an equal share in all the powers which God exercises and in all the honors which are rendered to him by his creatures. Standing so near to God, he might have resented his inferior place and thrown off his obedience...

Yet he never attempted the robbery which might have raised him higher...

But the Greek, and in English, the word 'robbery' involved the idea of violent seizure, and what Christ resisted was not merely the prize but the means of obtaining it. He refused to seize for his own the glory which belonged to God.

So much for harpagmos.

There you have it. Let's review:

"We cannot find any passage where harpazo or any of it's derivatives has the sense of 'holding in possession', 'retaining'."

"We" have a problem with asserting our opinion. It is interesting that Ev forgets the simple fact that Hoover DID! Know why you won't find 'harpagmos'? Because it occurs but ONCE in the NT (Phil2:6) and *nowhere* in the LXX. This is why we must go to outside sources in the Koine in order to grasp a lexical understanding. See BAGD, Hoover's [entirely] unaddressed argument, etc..

quote:This version conveys the idea more clearly what is actually being said:

*snip*

No, it's still wrong.

I wasn't citing an English version in support for any argument but that one may obtain a clearer grasp on what the passage conveys in reality. :cool:

God bless--FM
 
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Future Man

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A few comments for Ev and FOW:

Read Zechariah 12:10

Whom is speaking here? The Lord. This is Christ as well... because He is God who became man.
>
Nonsense.

It's actually a useless case with Ev. Read for example Zech14:3-4..cf..Acts1:11-12. This quite emphatically describes Jesus as the coming YHWH. The *feet* of YHWH that will be touching the Mt. Point. Jesus could stand on top of a mountain and cry at the top of His voice "I am God ALMIGHTY". The Arian [etc,.] response? "Oh it's just because he's "representing" God" :rolleyes:

Take note however. The fact that Ev vouches to argue for the rendering of "one" means he doesn't put much faith in the above route of escape. :)

So what? Other mortal men were called "god" in the OT, and in this regard Jesus is no different. The application of elohim to the Messiah is a titular reference, not an ontological one.

[See John1 for an example of 'ontological' application]

The phrase in question is 'Mighty God'. Not simply 'elohim'. This phrase [former] is *only* used of YHWH in the OT. No one else. In fact, the title is used of YHWH in Is10, ie the very next chapter after it was used of Christ.
Therefore Ev merely throwing out the "men are called 'gods'" argument does not apply here [See my point concerning 'Almighty god' below].

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the staff of Your kingdom is a staff of righteousness.

Read the rendering of the WTS's NWT and you'll see that even they aren't very comfortable with the above rendering. Does this apply to David? Does Ps16? Point made. Nevertheless....

In fact I could do the same if we were arguing "Almighty God".

-"But men are called "gods" so a reference to 'Almighty god' is of no relevance in portraying YHWH's power and sovereignty!"

Nasty double-standards :(

You have to bear in mind that there is no way of identifiying Jesus as YHWH [Hence my 'Mt.' example]. In fact, when it comes down to it, these same fallacious reasonings remove any grounds for defense against Mormonism as pertaining to multiple 'gods' and the not-so-Sovereignty of YHWH.

Of course Ev could use the arguement of :

"Everyone then with Jehovah in their name must be God!"

Of course the referrences in Is9:6 or more along the lines of "titles" rather than mere 'names'.
Someone *titled* 'King' is naturally a King.
Hence 'Wonderful Counselor', 'Father of Eternity', etc.,..
 
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Future Man

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Remember, God himself declared that there are “No gods beside me”, but also said to Moses that "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh”:

Ontologial vs titular. Of course that leads to an interesting discussion with JWs on the topic of henotheism. :)

Exodus 7:1.
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Was it idolatrous for Moses to accept Aaron as his own prophet, even though he himself was not a literal god, nor even the God of Israel?

Strictly analogous. Of course would it be idolatrous for Moses to recieve worship or service even though he himself was not a literal god, nor even the God of Israel? <bait>

Yes, that is correct. So it is an early error, as Bruce takes care to point out. And guess what? When this passage is quoted in the NT, the error is corrected, and the "Trinitarian" reference is nowhere to be found.

See! :D Why does he fear the rendering you put forth? Come on Ev, just say "agency". :rolleyes:

FOW-
Christ is called Mighty God as is the Father... do you know how many times they are referred to as the same thing?

An extreme amount. To post an exhaustive list would be quite a feat. :) Not to mention cross-references, parallels and the like.

>

God bless--FM
 
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Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
AV - a few points:
  • Hoover is clearly wrong, and there's not a reputable, objective, academic source on Earth that would vindincate his butchered rendering of harpagmos. I have not simply presented a series of "English definitions" - I have presented the clear and consistent use of harpagmos, as demonstrated by the text of the NT itself. So Hoover's baseless claim does nothing for your argument. This is a "no show" by the Trinitarian team. The Unitarian team wins by default on this point.
  • You have resorted to Robertson because (a) you don't understand the nuances of the text in question, and (b) you don't really understand the argument anyway.
  • Your attempt to bypass the clear meaning of the text by an out-of-context appeal to the filial equality of the Philippians, is intellectually bankrupt. You can't argue "The Philippians were equal with each other, ergo Christ is equal with God", because the entire thrust of the passage is that he isn't. As Martin correctly observes, this would destroy Paul's entire argument.
You reveal your double standard (yet again) when you fumble the other places where mortal men are called elohim, thus:

Strictly analogous.

[...]

Ontologial vs titular.

So we see that you have no consistent hermeneutic, no systematic theology, and no justifiable basis for your (unsupported) opinion. It's back to the old Trintiarian double standard.

You foolishly criticise me for using LSJ (when in fact the text has shown that the LSJ's definition of harpagmos and morphe is perfectly consistent with the NT use and definition of both words!) and then shoot yourself in the foot by referring outside the Bible to Plutarch! This is another example of the Trinitarian double standard, and exposes your hypocrisy for all to see. :)

Again, this...

Know why you won't find 'harpagmos'? Because it occurs but ONCE in the NT (Phil2:6) and *nowhere* in the LXX.

...merely reveals your ignorance. The precise form is irrelevant; the essential meaning remains the same. But of course, you didn't know that...

Your latest post consists of little more than borrowed arguments from unreliable sources, and a pitiful attempt to ape your betters by emulating Robert Turkel's writing style. You prance and posture without delivering any substance, and take pride in your transparent affectations - not realising, perhaps that those of us who have been blessed with much more than a high school education, can see right through them.

You will never gain any respect or credibility with those whom you hope to refute until you can show that (a) you understand what you're talking about, and (b) you have an education to back it up. :cool:


Edited for breaking Rule 1 (no flaming). Please read the forum rules before posting any further. Thank you.
 
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Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
Let’s examine A. T. Robertson's argument, and see how it stands up to a rigorous cross-examination. ;)

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Philippians 2:6
Being (uparcwn). Rather, "existing," present active participle of uparcw.

Robertson says that Jesus was existing "in his preincarnate state." But he cites no Scripture to prove this! An unproven assertion is a futile assertion. Robertson's argument is utterly reliant on the idea that Christ pre-existed, and yet he cannot prove it from the text! As always, the Trinitarian interepretation starts with an assumption, through which the Scriptures must then be filtered.

In the form of God (en morph qeou). Morph means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

Here is a clear statement which demonstrates beyond any shadow of a doubt, the subjectivity of the Trinitarian argument. Allow me to explain a few things about that little word "morphe"...

First of all, the definition on which Robertson's argument turns, is actually a misrepresentation of the Aristotelian use of morphe. Having studied Aristotelian metaphysics at university, I am qualified to discuss this topic with some measure of authority.

Aristotle used two words for “form” – eidos (visual image) and morphe (shape.) In simple examples (such as that of a piece of bronze being made into a statue) the “form” is actually is a visual appearance or shape. More often, however, it is some quality of that object. An example Aristotle often uses is that of an axe. The “form” of the axe is not only its shape; it is also the power of the axe to cut wood. Of course, the axe only has this power by virtue of its shape, so the two are closely related. Aristotle regards them as a unity and calls them both together the “form.”

He also uses the example of a man becoming musical. Here, the “form” is a certain state of knowledge. The knowledge is not just an awareness of certain facts, however, but a skill – a developed capacity or “causal power” to understand and produce music. This skill, in turn, resides in the soul in virtue of some physical change in the body. So in this example (as is often the case with Aristotle’s physics), the form is both the physical shape, arrangement, or quality of some body, and the corresponding causal power. That is what is meant by the Classical use of morphe in relation to “the sum of those characterizing qualities which make a thing the precise thing that it is”, as Warfield expresses it. You can see for yourself that this is not the same as “nature” or “essence” or anything else that the Trinitarian argument requires.

The Liddell-Scott-James Greek Lexicon defines morphe thus:

  • morph-ê, hê, form, shape, twice in Hom. (not in Hes.), soi d' epi men morphê epeôn thou hast comeliness of words, Hom. Od. 11.367 (cf. Eust. ad loc.); so prob. allos men . . eidos akidnoteros pelei anêr, alla theos morphên epesi stephei God adds a crown of shapeliness to his words, Hom. Od. 8.170: freq. later, morphas duo onomazein Parm.8.53; morphên allaxanta Emp.137.1; morphan brachus Pind. I. 4.53; morphês metra shape and size, Eur. Alc. 1063 : periphr., morphês phusis Aesch. Supp. 496; morphês schêma, tupôma, Eur. Ion 992ti=tên autên tou schêmatos morphên Arist.PA640b34; kai Gaia, pollôn onomatôn m. mia Aesch. PB 212oneiratôn alinkioi morphaisin IBID=au=Aesch. PB 449; nukterôn phantasmatôn echousi morphas IDEM=A.Fr.312; proupempsen anti philtatês m. spodon Soph. El. 1159 ; of plants, Thphr.HP1.1.12 (pl.); esp. with ref. to beauty of form, huperphaton morphai Pind. O. 9.65 ; hois potistaxêi charis euklea m. IBID=au=Pind. O. 6.76 cf. IG42 (au=IG 1).au=IG =lr (Epid., iv B. C.), LXX To.1.13, Vett.Val.1.6, etc.; sôma morphês emês OGI383.41 (Commagene, i B. C.); morphês eikonas IBID=au=OGI 383.27=lr; charaktêra morphês emês IBID=au=OGI 383.60=lr.

    2. generally, form, fashion, appearance, Aesch. PB 78 , Soph. Trach. 699 , ti=Soph. El. 199(lyr.); outward form, opp. eidos, hekaterô tô eideos pollai m. Philol.5; allattonta to hautou eidos eis pollas morphas Plat. Rep. 380d ; m. theôn Xen. Mem. 4.3.13 , cf. Ep.Phil.2.6, Dam.Pr.304; hêrôôn eidea kai morphas A.R.4.1193; kata te morphas kai phônas gesticulations and cries, D.H.14.9; tên m. melanchrous, têi m. melichroas, in complexion, Ptol.Tetr.143, au=Ptol. Tetr. 144.

    3. kind, sort, Eur. Ion 382 , au=Eur. Ion 1068 <(lyr.), Plat. Rep. 397c , etc. (Possibly cogn. with Lat. Forma for morg&uup;hm&amacr;, with f by dissimilation, êcf. murmx .)
If Paul had wanted to say that Jesus pre-existed as God (i.e. sharing divine nature), he would have used (a) (the Greek word for “pre-existence”), which he does not, and (b) “theios“ or “theotes” (two Greek words for “divine nature”), which he also does not. If he had really wanted to be sure, he would have thrown in the Greek word for “essence” (ousia), and removed all doubt. None of these words are used in Philippians 2:5-1. If Paul has intended to convey the idea that Jesus pre-existed as Almighty God, he has done a very poor job of it. Indeed, he has somehow managed to omit every Greek word which would have rendered his argument totally impervious to any reasonable objection.

In Mark 16:12, we are told that Jesus appeared "in another form [morphe]" before two disciples on the road to Emmaeus. We are also told that they did not recognise him because he was in another form. Roberston's interpretation of morphe, however, does not fit this passage of Scripture. Indeed, if we were to agree with Robertsons' interpretation, we would have to conclude that Jesus changed his nature when he appeared to the two disciples. I am curious to know what this involved, and I am especially curious to know how this prevented them from knowing who he was. :cool:
 
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Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
Continued...

A prize (harpagmon). Predicate accusative with hghsato. Originally words in -moß signified the act, not the result (-ma). The few examples of arpagmoß (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to arpagma, like baptismoß and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery").

Here again, Robertson resorts to a subjective interpretation. Previously, he looked back to Aristotle (instead of simply turning to Mark 16:12)for a definition of morphe. But even then, he misrepresented Aristotle's definition! (Benjamin Warfield and Charles Ryrie were also guilty of this error.) Now he turns to Plutarch (another Classical Greek source) in order to "prove" that harpagmon (a form of the Greek word "harpargmos"; also rendered "harpazo") means "retained."

The Liddell-Scott-James Greek Lexicon (which includes a reference to Plutarch and a reference to Philippians 2) defines harpagmos thus:

  • harpag-mos , ho, robbery, rape, Plu.2.12a; ha. ho gamos estai Vett.Val.122.1 .

    2. concrete, prize to be grasped, Ep.Phil.2.6; cf. harpagma 2.
That's pretty clear, IMHO. Now let's see what the Bible has to say. Observe the following examples, which are listed in the 5th Edition of the Concordance to the Greek Testament, (1978) by Moulton, Geden and Moulton:
  • It was in the days of John the Baptizer that a situation first arose-a situation that still exists-in which the kingdom of heaven is stormed, and in which those who are eager to storm their way into it clutch at {harpazo} it.
    Matthew 11:12; Barclay.
  • Or, how can anyone get into a giant's house and carry off {harpazo} his goods, unless he first binds the giant?
    Matthew 12:29; C.B.Williams.
  • When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away {harpazo} what is sown in the heart
    Matthew 13:19; New Revised Standard Version.
  • Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force {harpazo}, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
    John 6:15; New International Version.
  • When the hired man, who is not a shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees a wolf coming, he leaves the sheep and runs away; so the wolf snatches {harpazo} the sheep and scatters them.
    John 10:12; Today's English Version.
  • I give them eternal life and they will never perish; no one will ever snatch {harpazo} them out of my care.
    John 10:28; Revised English Bible.
  • And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched {harpazo} Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more.
    Acts 8:39; New American Standard Version.
  • And when a great dissension was developing, the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them and ordered the troops to go down and take {harpazo} him away from them by force and bring him into the barracks.
    Acts 23:10; New American Standard Version.
  • And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up {harpazo} to God and to his throne.
    Revelation 12:12; New American Standard Version.
What is the common element in all these occurrences of harpazo? Not once is it used in the sense of retaining something, but always in a way of a change - in an attempt at gaining something not already possessed. Is the form of the word used in Philippians 2 (harpagmos) used with a different significance? The Expositor's Greek Testament (1976) leaves us in no doubt whatsoever:

  • We cannot find any passage where harpazo or any of it's derivatives has the sense of 'holding in possession', 'retaining'. It seems invariably to mean 'seize,' 'snatch violently'. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense 'grasp at' into one which is totally different, 'hold fast'.
In harmony with this exposition, the Interpreter's Bible (1999) says:

  • "Since he {the Son} had this affinity with God, he might have aspired to 'equality' with him; he might have claimed an equal share in all the powers which God exercises and in all the honors which are rendered to him by his creatures. Standing so near to God, he might have resented his inferior place and thrown off his obedience...

    Yet he never attempted the robbery which might have raised him higher...

    But the Greek, and in English, the word 'robbery' involved the idea of violent seizure, and what Christ resisted was not merely the prize but the means of obtaining it. He refused to seize for his own the glory which belonged to God.
If anyone wishes to criticise the LSJ for its definition of harpagmos, they must first attempt to justify Robertson's use of Plutarch and Aristotle.

Well, so much for harpagmon. :p

*snip*

Revelation 21:16. Emptied himself (eauton ekenwse). First aorist active indicative of kenow, old verb from kenoß, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosiß doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man.

*snip*

Robertson is clearly working with the old translatation - "thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

A more precise rendering of the Greek is…

  • did not regard equality with God something to be grasped
…as the NASB has it. This is another reference to Christ's obedience. Christ did not attempt to usurp equality with God; indeed, this was not his to take. Since Trinitarian Christology accepts the functional subordination of the Son in deference to the higher position of the Father, Robertson has no basis on which to reject this interpretation. It is a clear reference to status, not essence. There is no room for the standard Trinitarian sidestep – “But I’m talking about equality of nature!” – because “equality of nature” is not even mentioned here. :cool:
 
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