Why are unbelievers pro-abortion, but believers are against abortion?

larry_boy_44 said:

what do you eat if nothing that was ever living is allowed to be eaten??

I mean, even the dirt is extremely likely to have once been a part of animal, plant, or person...

and all plants are just as living as animals, they just can't scream in pain when we cut them up...

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Plants are not sentient just as most animals are not sentient.

OphidiaPhile said:

Plants are not sentient just as most animals are not sentient.

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How do you know?

Let me see if i have this straight.
Holy Roller opens up the OP with a false dichotomy and when he is called on it moves directly to the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

Epic logic fail.

His own statistics show that 3 percent of secular respondents do not believe abortion should be permitted at all.

American Population 305 Million -> 14% are atheist/agnostic -> 32Million -> 3% 'not permitted'
-> Which in itself proves just under a million people disproves his dichotomy.

but then again maybe they're not 'true atheists' or 'true agnostics'

Can someone supply me a *facepalm*

Wiccan_Child said:

How do you know?

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Sentience is the ability to recognize oneself and others as individuals, such as when you look in a mirror and recognize your reflection. Only humans, the great apes and Dolphins have been shown to have that ability. If you put a dog in front of a mirror it acts as if it is another dog never realizing it is a representation of itself.

OphidiaPhile said:

Sentience is the ability to recognize oneself and others as individuals, such as when you look in a mirror and recognize your reflection. Only humans, the great apes and Dolphins have been shown to have that ability. If you put a dog in front of a mirror it acts as if it is another dog never realizing it is a representation of itself.

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Actually, a large variety of animals have demonstrated this ability, including non-mammals. My cats can recognise themselves in the mirror, and even each other's reflections.

lawtonfogle said:

I think I may agree with you here. Anyone wanting to force women against there will, drugging them or binding them up, and taking them to an abortionist (guess he is one of the 'don't ask, don't tell types), and forcing them to have an abortion when they really want the child... especially if this is a partial birth abortion... I think one could question if they are following the basics of what one must do to be a Christian.

Luckily, I don't know of anyone like that.

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QFT, I think if someone is pro-abortion as described above (not pro choice, where we dont want abortions to happen but accept its not for us to decide what a person should use their body for), then perhaps we should question a little more than whether or not they are christian, I think questioning their sanity would be a good place to start.

Flibbertigibbet said:

Well, actually . . . been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Boy am I happy it no longer fits.

While not an exact description of my life before Christ, it's close enough to hit home.

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Lol well Im sure your intent wasnt to have as many abortions as possible And if it was well then Im glad you found Christ And my point was to say that not ALL non believers are like this, although its entirely possible some are (minus the wanting to have as many abortions as possible of course )

DarkLegend28 said:

Nah, that's not a problem. Animals and plants are inferior to humans so its okay.

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What makes us so special? We need plants and animals to survive, just because we eat some of them doesnt make them inferior, it makes them an important part of life.

flicka said:

You know that a non sentient fetus and you are not the same dontcha? That comparison is TIRED. YAWN.

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YOU used to be a fetus.

If your mother had thought the way you do, you might not even be here.

Wade Smith said:

YOU used to be a fetus, hypocrite.

If your mother had thought the way you do, you might not even be here.

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Then she wouldn't be here to care then, would she? Duh!

Wade Smith said:

YOU used to be a fetus.

If your mother had thought the way you do, you might not even be here.

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And then I would not care.

Wiccan_Child said:

Actually, a large variety of animals have demonstrated this ability, including non-mammals. My cats can recognise themselves in the mirror, and even each other's reflections.

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Show me the science that proves your Hypothesis because there is none, it only exists for the previously named species. And you watching your cat look in a mirror does not prove sentience it just proves curiosity.

ReverendDG said:

but here's the thing, "alive" is a meaningless distinction. everything in the human body is alive.
the sperm and egg are alive, so why is the sperm and egg meeting anyway important?
why should we care about a three week old set of cells over a person?

the fact is though that pro-lifers don't get that in order to have rights or protection you have to be sentient in some form.
i mean we have protection for dogs and cats, they are sentient in some form
but a zygote isn't sentient in any form, "life" doesn't give anything rights, or else chickens wouldn't be killed by kfc
now you might be saying, what about pvs or old people, well they are/were able to think on their own at one point, or had the ability to breath or eat.
now they don't, but what about zygotes or fetus?
they never have, the only thing about them is the fact that they have human dna.

does having human dna, give one the right of precedence over a grown adult human being?
no other form of humanity has ever had the right to force another human into giving up 9 months of their life so that they can survive. why should fetus get this right if no one else has it?

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Same deal. You are a hypocrite.

The only reason you are alive is because somebody cared about you for 9 months, and really much longer...

The fact that you are alive proves that your argument is wrong and full of deceit and hypocrissy.

It is strange that on an "ethics" forum someone would be so devoid of love and understanding.

God himself was willing to take a mortal form, and take all the false accusations and then take a beating and then bleed to death on a cross for people who didn't even want to be saved.

For a woman to be "upset" over allegedly "losing" 9 months of her life to raise a child. Wow. Just wow. That is pathetic and just plain un-Godly and unnatural.

Romans 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 Timothy 3


1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ah verse seven. WE are in the age of information, as Daniel also said, "Many shall run to and fro, and Knowledge shall be increased," and yet for all this information mankind still has the same old problem: refusal to acknowledge and obey God.


You continue to believe the serpent's lie, "Ye shall not surely die...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Is. 49:15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Yet the truth of this verse is lost on the willfully blinded eyes of this wicked generation.

Life begins at conception. In deed, the prophet's calling began at conception, even before then really.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

John the Baptist was obviously a sentient being, and even called and anointed by God at the second trimester.

Luke 1:15:

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Wade Smith said:

Same deal. You are a hypocrite.

The only reason you are alive is because somebody cared about you for 9 months, and really much longer...3

The fact that you are alive proves that your argument is wrong and full of deceit and hypocrissy.

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Same again, if he wasn't here he wouldn't care.

Wade Smith said:

God himself was willing to take a mortal form, and take all the false accusations and then take a beating and then bleed to death on a cross for people who didn't even want to be saved.

For a woman to be "upset" over allegedly "losing" 9 months of her life to raise a child. Wow. Just wow. That is pathetic and just plain un-Godly and unnatural.

Romans 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 Timothy 3


1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ah verse seven. WE are in the age of information, as Daniel also said, "Many shall run to and fro, and Knowledge shall be increased," and yet for all this information mankind still has the same old problem: refusal to acknowledge and obey God.


You continue to believe the serpent's lie, "Ye shall not surely die...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Is. 49:15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Yet the truth of this verse is lost on the willfully blinded eyes of this wicked generation.

Life begins at conception. In deed, the prophet's calling began at conception, even before then really.

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

John the Baptist was obviously a sentient being, and even called and anointed by God at the second trimester.

Luke 1:15:

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

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Again, who cares what a bunch of cavemen said!

OphidiaPhile said:

Sentience is the ability to recognize oneself and others as individuals, such as when you look in a mirror and recognize your reflection. Only humans, the great apes and Dolphins have been shown to have that ability. If you put a dog in front of a mirror it acts as if it is another dog never realizing it is a representation of itself.

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Thats not true, they might think its another dog at first but they eventually realize its just their reflection.

OphidiaPhile said:

Show me the science that proves your Hypothesis because there is none, it only exists for the previously named species.

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What a strange sentence. You ask for science that proves, yet by definition there is none. You ask for proof of my hypothesis, yet by definition a hypothesis cannot be proven. You request this demonstration, yet declare immediately thereafter that no such demonstration can be given! And to top it off, you reassert your own claim as if that were justification for your pre-emptive dismissal of any argument I could bring to the fore.

You'd make a good Creationist, OphidiaPhile.

OphidiaPhile said:

And you watching your cat look in a mirror does not prove sentience it just proves curiosity.

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I said my cats recognise their own reflection. I said nothing about theirsentience, or the lack thereof.

Wade Smith said:

YOU used to be a fetus, hypocrite.

If your mother had thought the way you do, you might not even be here.

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If I was aborted before I even knew I existed it would obviously be impossible for me to care.

Wade Smith said:

YOU used to be a fetus, hypocrite.

If your mother had thought the way you do, you might not even be here.

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Yet she didn't. Consider it a form of natural selection: those expectant mothers who choose to abort will have a harder time proliferating their genes, whereas the anti-abortion crowd will be popping out babies by the dozen. Perhaps, one day, the human species will have evolved to a stage where abortion is no longer seen as viable.

OphidiaPhile said:

Show me the science that proves your Hypothesis because there is none, it only exists for the previously named species. And you watching your cat look in a mirror does not prove sentience it just proves curiosity.

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Er... you may be a little behind in the literature, OphidiaPhile. And also confusing sentience with self-awareness. Sentience is a rather slippery term, and has been widely used, for example, in papers dealing with the welfare and comfort of farm animals, including cows, pigs, sheep and chickens. For the purposes of those agricultural scientists, sentience is used in describing any animal which can be adversely or positively affected by environmental conditions in addition to diet, shelter, crowding.

The mirror test is widely considered a measure of self-awareness, and elephants have been added to the list of animals which respond to this test by doing things like touching a mark on their forehead not visible except in a mirror.

However, there are problems with this test, one of which is that not all members of tested species pass it, even if they otherwise seem like normal or even 'smarter' specimens. There are also questions of whether it's a useful test of animals like dogs, cats, bears, pigs, and so on, which tend to have poor near vision and/or limited colour vision, or depend more on auditory or olfactory clues to read their environment.

It ain't all black and white, and there are massive amounts we don't know about animal cognition.

Sentience, self-awareness ... difficult concepts. I know several human beings who are so far below my dogs in self awareness and sentience, that such an argument becomes meaningless. They are profoundly handicapped, both mentally and physically. They are teenagers, yet they cannot feed themselves, speak or understand words, can't walk, basically cannot function without total care. And yet they are humans, so extraordinary means have been used to keep them alive.

My dogs, on the other hand, can recognize dozens of words, respond to stimulus, grieve when I leave them, rejoice when I return, communicate with me and the other dogs, can walk, feed themselves, and so on.

I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with anything, but there you go.