Can one simultaneously believe in free will and fate?

Because I believe in both... and there is support in the bible for both doctrines.

Like some passages state that believers are predestined, even before their birth. And other passages talk about moral choices, choosing to follow the Spirit, choosing to good works by faith.

I think the two can operate together, though I'm at a loss to explain how they can. The best I can come up with is that just because God knows something is going to happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.

It's a discussion that's as old as the hills, I know. I'm just wondering what other views are held by christians around here. Do you believe solely in one or the other, or focus more on one than the other?

I think it depends on how you would define 'fate'. In the Bible, the concept of fate is manifest as God's Plan. God has a plan for the world, and similarly for each of us as individuals. However, in giving humans the gift of free will, God has made it so that we must choose to embrace God's Plan, else we turn our backs on it and live our lives according to our own desires. That decision is free, and it is ours. However, as God is an infinite God, He has a plan for all ends - all choices that we could possibly make. This means that free will is not independent of God, for He is always there, but our choices are our own as a result of the permissive will of God.

Having 'a plan for all ends' makes it seem as if God does not know what will happen, which brings me to another view regarding free will and fate - that because God knows what will happen, He has decided it will. Yes, He knows what we are going to do, but that does not mean He is deciding it for us - for example, God knows which shirt I'll choose to wear tomorrow, but I myself have no idea. The fact that God already knows does not change the fact that I haven't personally made the decision yet, and the definition of free will is personally making a choice about something. I will make that choice. The definition of fate is that the choices have already been made. For God, who exists exclusively of time - He created it and is not bound by it - I have already made the choice, because it is going to happen. God makes fate a reality because otherwise, there would be no absolute, nothing that existed simultaneously in the past, present and future. God's gift of free will is also a reality due to His creation of time.

So God's Plan exists: just as you would plan to go to the pictures. But it often transpires that alternatives exist as a result of free will: just as you might end up not going because somebody refused to drive you there. I'm a bit of an amateur when it comes to deep philosophical talk, but I think this is how one would simultaneously believe in free will and fate.

MarkSB said:

Because I believe in both... and there is support in the bible for both doctrines.

Like some passages state that believers are predestined, even before their birth. And other passages talk about moral choices, choosing to follow the Spirit, choosing to good works by faith.

I think the two can operate together, though I'm at a loss to explain how they can. The best I can come up with is that just because God knows something is going to happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.

It's a discussion that's as old as the hills, I know. I'm just wondering what other views are held by christians around here. Do you believe solely in one or the other, or focus more on one than the other?

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I too think both can operate together especially as we are talking about that creator of the Universe. I haven't got the time at the moment to back this up with scripture however I have come to this conclusion through study and thought. I should prayer about this too now you have brought it to my attention again lol. Anyways my theory goes... We are born with a God given predestination/plan for our lives. Freewill being as it is we also are able to choose whether we follow this plan or not. So yes we have a predestined life if we choose it.

This is brief i hope it make sense

Yay! lol I started posting and was distracted and in the mean time you posted a brilliant response far better than mine. Hats off to you and pah to you not being much good at th philosophical I think you did a great job! I agree entirely

Sorry, but there's no such thing as freewill except in minds of men.

Isa 10:6 Against an irreligious nation, will I send him, Yea against the people with whom I am wroth, will I command him,—To capture spoil And lay hold on prey, And cause them to be trodden down as the mire of the lanes.
Isa 10:7 But as for him, not so, doth he deem, And in his heart, not so, doth he think,—For, to destroy, is in his heart, And to cut off nations, not a few;

Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? Or, the saw, magnify itself, against him that wieldeth it? As if a rod, could wield, them who lift it up! As if a staff, could raise, what is, not wood!

Pro 16:9 A man’s heart, deviseth his way, but, Yahweh, directeth his steps.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.


Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And many, many more!

Dear MarkSB. God`s Plan for us is to live with Him and our Christian brothers and = sisters for eternity. God gave us His Commandments, and Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all 10 Commandments God gave us. We are all predestined=======( dated ) to return to God, but because God wants our love freely given, we have free will to follow His loving Commands to us, or to choose to go our own way. Our fate we choose ourselves too, and because we live in an imperfect world, and we are surrounded by all sorts of temptations, we often choose wrong, and pay the consequences. We have free will, Mark, and the ensuing consequences, decide our fate. God wants us back again, we have been told the right way, and we have the choice to follow it completely, or follow our own desires, and pay consequences. I say this with humility and love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. the word dated, after predestined, is a mistake, and I cannot erase it.

Thanks for all the responses, they have put things into a different light.

I like how you have explained it Kattylove, Applehead and Emmy as well. It helps put things into perspective.

I'm taking a philosophy class this semester and the topic of free will has been the discussion for the last couple weeks, so I've been trying to figure out where I stand in the basis of my faith. Not only has it been a topic of class discussion, but it's been something that's been on my mind as well with some troubles I've been going through.

Thanks again for the responses and I think it is an interesting topic to discuss. Many of the ideas presented in class take God out of the equation, so then they become rather abstract to me.

martymonster said:

Sorry, but there's no such thing as freewill except in minds of men.

Isa 10:6 Against an irreligious nation, will I send him, Yea against the people with whom I am wroth, will I command him,—To capture spoil And lay hold on prey, And cause them to be trodden down as the mire of the lanes.
Isa 10:7 But as for him, not so, doth he deem, And in his heart, not so, doth he think,—For, to destroy, is in his heart, And to cut off nations, not a few;

Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? Or, the saw, magnify itself, against him that wieldeth it? As if a rod, could wield, them who lift it up! As if a staff, could raise, what is, not wood!

Pro 16:9 A man’s heart, deviseth his way, but, Yahweh, directeth his steps.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.


Exo 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And many, many more!

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Pro 16:9 A man’s heart, deviseth his way, but, Yahweh, directeth his steps.

How can you say this proves we have no freewill. We have the God given ability to choose our paths we take. Yes I agree God has a plan and He guides us but we choose whether or not we are going to obey or turn away. We basically have 2 choices, life or death that is the true extent of our freewill. While finding our way through to our ultimate choice we also choose various paths to walk down out of freewill but all the time Jesus is waiting for us to turn our face to the wall, to seek after Him only. To, out of Love and with the freewill he gave us, choose to love him.

Most of the other verses highlighted talk of God's will in our lives which is fair enough and yes God is all powerful and who could resist His will. This does not mean that He forces us all at every given moment to do his will. If this were the case why does the Lord ask us to pray "Thy will be done" if it is a definate anyway.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This does not suggest that men do not have freewill but that we are shown mercy compassion through our heavenly Fathers most gracious mercy and not by our own will power. Pharoah with all his supposed majesty and great power could do nothing to stop the will of God except to yield which he did not do, maybe because God hardened his heart so that when God frees the Israelites by His will only and not that of pharoah they can see how truly gracious, faithful, powerful and awesome He is. It also says "it is not of him that willeth" which to me suggest that we infact do have freewill as it is referred to here. It is clear to me that we cannot, by our own will move the will of God, only by His grace. This therefore means that we have the freewill to choose to love Him as what is love if it is not true and forced. We do not have the power to change the will of God except by His grace.


Romans 6:16 states that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God even still we have a choice between the two in our choice to obey God or not to obey God. It might be small but it is still freewill.

martymonster said:

Sorry, but there's no such thing as freewill except in minds of men.

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Then what do you make of these passages:

"For this is the life whereof Moses spake unto the people while he lived, saying, Choose thee life, that thou mayest live."

- Ezra 7:59

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"And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."

- Jeremiah 21:8

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"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

- Deut. 30:19

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"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;"

- Deut 30:15

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"Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you."

- Deut. 4:1

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There seems to be some clear choices laid out here.

Sorry, but there's no such thing as freewill except in minds of men.

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Then, how can God be good and there still be sin? It would seem then, as if God were responsible for each sin, since men had no choice but to do what God made him to do. That of course would eliminate all responsibility and all accountability on the side of man.

MarkSB said:

Because I believe in both... and there is support in the bible for both doctrines.

Like some passages state that believers are predestined, even before their birth. And other passages talk about moral choices, choosing to follow the Spirit, choosing to good works by faith.

I think the two can operate together, though I'm at a loss to explain how they can. The best I can come up with is that just because God knows something is going to happen, doesn't mean He made it happen.

It's a discussion that's as old as the hills, I know. I'm just wondering what other views are held by christians around here. Do you believe solely in one or the other, or focus more on one than the other?

Click to expand...

I say it is possible, and not only that it is possible but that it happens quite often. One example of this is marriage. When a couple spends a lot of time together, it is almost impossible that they will not get married in some cases. Regardless of that, at the wedding, the wife still chooses the husband and the husband still chooses the wife.

Rauffenburg said:

Then, how can God be good and there still be sin? It would seem then, as if God were responsible for each sin, since men had no choice but to do what God made him to do. That of course would eliminate all responsibility and all accountability on the side of man.

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And make God look pretty foolish when he says, "Follow me."

Rauffenburg said:

Then, how can God be good and there still be sin? It would seem then, as if God were responsible for each sin, since men had no choice but to do what God made him to do. That of course would eliminate all responsibility and all accountability on the side of man.

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God does not need to force us to sin, We are sinning machines!

Sinful men and women are like bit of an engine that behave reliably and predictably.
Once those pieces are put together to work together they can be steered in the desired direction with very little effort.

God does not have to force us to sin at all.

To believe in Freewill you have to ignore many, many verses of scripture!

martymonster said:

God does not need to force us to sin, We are sinning machines!

Sinful men and women are like bit of an engine that behave reliably and predictably.
Once those pieces are put together to work together they can be steered in the desired direction with very little effort.

God does not have to force us to sin at all.

To believe in Freewill you have to ignore many, many verses of scripture!

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Really? If that is the case, then please provide Scripture to prove to us that free will does not exist. Show us what verses we are ignoring. Oh, and you can then explain to us how this jives with the idea of us following God and God giving commandments. As in, what is the point if God controls everything anyway.
Also, if we sin on our own, that shows that there is choice.