The miracle of the koran

Luzeiro · Aug 28, 2008

The Bible says that a miracle is defined to be something that defies the common laws of nature. Muslims say the koran is a miracle and allege it was given perfectly and without change and will be so until the second coming.

The Harry Potter books will most certainly be passed on exactly as they are until the second coming, I'm wondering:

Does this make Harry Potter books a miracle like the koran?

arunma · Aug 28, 2008

This is an interesting point, and one which may help Muslims to understand why the claim that the Koran itself is miraculous is rather unconvincing to us. Now, if Muslims believe that the Koran has supernatural power as the word of God in its ability to affect its readers, it might be helpful if they would clarify it for us. Indeed, this is the very claim that the church makes about the Bible. We believe that it is a supernatural book, the breath of God, as evidenced in its power to cut men to the heart and profoundly convert sinners. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as communicated in the written word and accompanied by his Holy Spirit, has a demonstrable ability to deeply affect both the best and vilest of people, transforming them and irreversibly changing their lives, so that they repent of dead works and turn to a life of faith in the Son of God. It changes their very hearts, and this results in changed lives.

The Koran, as Muslims claim, has been faithfully transmitted to the letter down throughout history. I do not know if this claim is true or not, but for the purposes of this discussion I'll stipulate to it. The various manuscripts of the Bible differ in terms of spelling errors and numerical values. This is because of the very large number of extant Biblical manuscripts from the second through fifth centuries, which I think ought to testify to the accuracy of modern copies of the Bible, rather than error. Perhaps Muslims could explain how the modern Koran comes to us from ancient times.

But, I would ask, what power does the Koran have over its readers? What characterizes it as otherworldly? After all, the Koran isn't the only piece of human writing that has ever been handed down to us in perfect form. The Bible has a sort of authority about in its damning indictments and saving pronouncements of grace. This is an authority that I would humbly suggest the Koran lacks.

Luzeiro · Aug 29, 2008

arunma said:
This is an interesting point, and one which may help Muslims to understand why the claim that the Koran itself is miraculous is rather unconvincing to us. Now, if Muslims believe that the Koran has supernatural power as the word of God in its ability to affect its readers, it might be helpful if they would clarify it for us. Indeed, this is the very claim that the church makes about the Bible. We believe that it is a supernatural book, the breath of God, as evidenced in its power to cut men to the heart and profoundly convert sinners. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as communicated in the written word and accompanied by his Holy Spirit, has a demonstrable ability to deeply affect both the best and vilest of people, transforming them and irreversibly changing their lives, so that they repent of dead works and turn to a life of faith in the Son of God. It changes their very hearts, and this results in changed lives.

The Koran, as Muslims claim, has been faithfully transmitted to the letter down throughout history. I do not know if this claim is true or not, but for the purposes of this discussion I'll stipulate to it. The various manuscripts of the Bible differ in terms of spelling errors and numerical values. This is because of the very large number of extant Biblical manuscripts from the second through fifth centuries, which I think ought to testify to the accuracy of modern copies of the Bible, rather than error. Perhaps Muslims could explain how the modern Koran comes to us from ancient times.

But, I would ask, what power does the Koran have over its readers? What characterizes it as otherworldly? After all, the Koran isn't the only piece of human writing that has ever been handed down to us in perfect form. The Bible has a sort of authority about in its damning indictments and saving pronouncements of grace. This is an authority that I would humbly suggest the Koran lacks.

Thank you for your interesting points. It is the message in our Bible, which transforms, not the Bible itself. It is the koran, from the paper it is written on to the cover and back again, which are holy and miraculous, not just the words in it. The words in the Bible themselves are not holy, but what they do to the man who believes and is changed by them through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the miracle.

Therefore, the question about Harry Potter vis a vis the koran is legitimate. One is as miraculous as the other.

Where are the muslims with answers to my question?

Bookofknowledge · Aug 30, 2008

Luzeiro said:
The Bible says that a miracle is defined to be something that defies the common laws of nature. Muslims say the koran is a miracle and allege it was given perfectly and without change and will be so until the second coming.

The Harry Potter books will most certainly be passed on exactly as they are until the second coming, I'm wondering:

Does this make Harry Potter books a miracle like the koran?

Are you seeking or are you preaching?

Nooj · Aug 30, 2008

Luzeiro said:
The Bible says that a miracle is defined to be something that defies the common laws of nature.

Where does the Bible say that?

Luzeiro said:
Muslims say the koran is a miracle and allege it was given perfectly and without change and will be so until the second coming.

I believe the miracle of the Qur'an for Muslims is that it was given by God, and that its perfectness is not the miracle per se, although it is certainly miraculous. Or so they believe.

Luzeiro said:
The Harry Potter books will most certainly be passed on exactly as they are until the second coming

That's incorrect. Slight errors creep into the books during the printing process, and the Harry Potter books have been translated into many languages so the capability for error is even higher. If there was a catastrophic event and most of the English copies were destroyed, we'd have to go back to the other languages and back-translate. Also, British idioms have been altered in the American versions, so for example the Philosopher's Stone into the Sorcerer's Stone.

peaceful soul · Aug 30, 2008

Luzeiro said:
The Bible says that a miracle is defined to be something that defies the common laws of nature. Muslims say the koran is a miracle and allege it was given perfectly and without change and will be so until the second coming.

The Harry Potter books will most certainly be passed on exactly as they are until the second coming, I'm wondering:

Does this make Harry Potter books a miracle like the koran?

The Qu'ran could not be a miracle since books are not supernatural. You can argue that its transmission or the means by which it got here was supernatural. Books are quite normal.

Then claim of perfection depends upon whether the person's memory was perfect and whether any human thoughts entered into the understanding of what was transmitted. Mohammad was not inspired with the words himself. They were dictated to him. He then had to perfectly relay them to whomever wrote them since he is claimed to be illiterate.

peaceful soul · Aug 30, 2008

originally posted by Nooj

Where does the Bible say that?

I wouldn't know, but I do know that it speaks of supernatural things that demonstrate the basic definition already given.

I believe the miracle of the Qur'an for Muslims is that it was given by God, and that its perfectness is not the miracle per se, although it is certainly miraculous. Or so they believe.

Books are ordinary things. People write them all the time. If the Qu'ran is a miracle because it came from God, then all books that claim to be from God would be miracles, thus devaluing the meaning of miracle as the OP sees it. Therefore, normal occurrences would not be miracles.

That's incorrect. Slight errors creep into the books during the printing process, and the Harry Potter books have been translated into many languages so the capability for error is even higher. If there was a catastrophic event and most of the English copies were destroyed, we'd have to go back to the other languages and back-translate. Also, British idioms have been altered in the American versions, so for example the Philosopher's Stone into the Sorcerer's Stone.

I think I get what you are saying, but i believe that you are using a bad example. We are not talking about translation and potential for errros from translations. We are looking at the original document or at least, the original transmission. In the case of Harry Potter, the original book would be free from errors since the originator knows exactly what was to go into the book and hopefully remembers it or wrote it down perfectly for preservation. What the copyists did with it is another story. As long as there is an original or a copy of the origianal, we can always use that to weed out the errors. It is not as if we couldn't know where the errors were.

Luzeiro · Aug 31, 2008

Nooj said:
Where does the Bible say that?

I believe the miracle of the Qur'an for Muslims is that it was given by God, and that its perfectness is not the miracle per se, although it is certainly miraculous. Or so they believe.

That's incorrect. Slight errors creep into the books during the printing process, and the Harry Potter books have been translated into many languages so the capability for error is even higher. If there was a catastrophic event and most of the English copies were destroyed, we'd have to go back to the other languages and back-translate. Also, British idioms have been altered in the American versions, so for example the Philosopher's Stone into the Sorcerer's Stone.

You did not answer the question. If errors creep into Potter during printing, they creep into the koran.

Luzeiro · Aug 31, 2008

peaceful soul said:
originally posted by Nooj

I wouldn't know, but I do know that it speaks of supernatural things that demonstrate the basic definition already given.

Books are ordinary things. People write them all the time. If the Qu'ran is a miracle because it came from God, then all books that claim to be from God would be miracles, thus devaluing the meaning of miracle as the OP sees it. Therefore, normal occurrences would not be miracles.

I think I get what you are saying, but i believe that you are using a bad example. We are not talking about translation and potential for errros from translations. We are looking at the original document or at least, the original transmission. In the case of Harry Potter, the original book would be free from errors since the originator knows exactly what was to go into the book and hopefully remembers it or wrote it down perfectly for preservation. What the copyists did with it is another story. As long as there is an original or a copy of the origianal, we can always use that to weed out the errors. It is not as if we couldn't know where the errors were.

Well-said. Changing to subject to translation issues is, of course, clever.

That generates the following question. Does the muslim not understand the premise of the OP, or is he deliberately uncooperative?

Luzeiro · Aug 31, 2008

Nooj said:
Where does the Bible say that?

I believe the miracle of the Qur'an for Muslims is that it was given by God, and that its perfectness is not the miracle per se, although it is certainly miraculous. Or so they believe.

That's incorrect. Slight errors creep into the books during the printing process, and the Harry Potter books have been translated into many languages so the capability for error is even higher. If there was a catastrophic event and most of the English copies were destroyed, we'd have to go back to the other languages and back-translate. Also, British idioms have been altered in the American versions, so for example the Philosopher's Stone into the Sorcerer's Stone.

Do you understand the premise of the question in the OP?

Islam_mulia · Aug 31, 2008

peaceful soul said:
The Qu'ran could not be a miracle since books are not supernatural. You can argue that its transmission or the means by which it got here was supernatural. Books are quite normal.

Then claim of perfection depends upon whether the person's memory was perfect and whether any human thoughts entered into the understanding of what was transmitted. Mohammad was not inspired with the words himself. They were dictated to him. He then had to perfectly relay them to whomever wrote them since he is claimed to be illiterate.

The word 'Quran' need not necessarily refers to a Book. The Quran comes from the word 'qara'a' which means 'read' or 'recite'. Hence, even before the Quran was compiled into a Book, the Quran was already mentioned in the Quran itself.

From a Muslim point of view, the Quran is supernatural:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]If the whole of mankind and Jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: Yet the gre[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]ater part of men refuse ( to receive it ) except with ingratitude.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial](Isra 88-89)[/FONT]

The Quran does not say it is a scientific book or history book, although the various ayat that have scientific or historical connotation do not conflict with modern findings and discoveries.

ApplePie7 · Aug 31, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
The word 'Quran' need not necessarily refers to a Book. The Quran comes from the word 'qara'a' which means 'read' or 'recite'. Hence, even before the Quran was compiled into a Book, the Quran was already mentioned in the Quran itself.

From a Muslim point of view, the Quran is supernatural:

False.

Here is the classic definition for your book of faith...

القرءان= “alqur-ana”

“alqur-ana” definition:

Proper noun. Originally meaning the Collection; “I collected together the thing” or “I read, or recited, the book or scripture”; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Muhammad; it also signifies the Revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.

قرءانis so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.

It comes from the root “qara’a”, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449

The classic Arabic definition is really quite revealing.

We have the following proclaimed regarding the original meaning applied to the Koran:

It’s a collection
A collection of books or scriptures

Whether this collection is read or recited, it still suggests that it emanates from a collected repository of things already written down.

It was only later that the meaning changed to signify the Book of God that was revealed to “Muhammad”…and we already understand that the “Muhammad” spoken of in the Koran is actually the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Thus, the Koran is Jesus’ book!

This would account for the scores of suras that are titled after Him, and revolve around Him.

“Alqur-ana” also means Revelation – which is most appropriate, as >50% of the Koran is directly copied from the Book of Revelation.

The root “qara’a” takes us one step deeper with the primary definition “he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion.

This gives us great insight as to why the Koran was written in the fashion that it was – as the authors who pieced it together and performed the translation, actually did so piecemeal. These pieces, taken in large part from the Book of Revelation, are actually the paraphrased Arabic counterparts to the Holy Bible, known as suras.

The Quran does not say it is a scientific book or history book, although the various ayat that have scientific or historical connotation do not conflict with modern findings and discoveries.

The Koran never once claims to be divinely inspired, however, per the classic definition, the Koran claims to have collected the previous divinely sinpired Jewish and Christian scriptures into one place for Arabic consumption.

Thus, any correlation to science that is found in the Koran is due strictly to the portions of the Holy Bible that have been paraphrased to fit into the Koranic opus...

Islam_mulia · Sep 1, 2008

Luzeiro said:
The Bible says that a miracle is defined to be something that defies the common laws of nature.

Where does the bible define that? Please provide me the quote.

Luzeiro said:
Muslims say the koran is a miracle and allege it was given perfectly and without change and will be so until the second coming.

God says in the Quran that He provides us Signs and if we reflect we will find the Truth.

سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّى
يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (41:53)

Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (Quran 41:54)

The Signs given in the Quran does not conflict with Science. Muslims believe the Quran contain miracles because the book provides ayat that can only be verified centuries later through Science.

Luzeiro said:
The Harry Potter books will most certainly be passed on exactly as they are until the second coming, I'm wondering:

Does this make Harry Potter books a miracle like the koran?

I am not sure your bible defines the Harry Potter book as a 'miracle' and I am waiting for your answer on how the bible defines 'miracle'.

ApplePie7 · Sep 1, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
The Signs given in the Quran does not conflict with Science. Muslims believe the Quran contain miracles because the book provides ayat that can only be verified centuries later through Science.

Like what?

FrederickM · Sep 1, 2008

I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran is not a 'book' but rather by Muslim beliefs, a collection of prophecies given by al-lah to spread to the people and reconvert them to the 'right ways'
So to call it a 'book' I think is incorrect.

Luzeiro · Sep 4, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
Where does the bible define that? Please provide me the quote.

God says in the Quran that He provides us Signs and if we reflect we will find the Truth.

سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّى
يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (41:53)

Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (Quran 41:54)

The Signs given in the Quran does not conflict with Science. Muslims believe the Quran contain miracles because the book provides ayat that can only be verified centuries later through Science.

I am not sure your bible defines the Harry Potter book as a 'miracle' and I am waiting for your answer on how the bible defines 'miracle'.

The comparison is between the koran and Potter. Redirection is not going to work with me and that includes a definition from the bible regarding miracles. Let it percolate.

Luzeiro · Sep 4, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
The word 'Quran' need not necessarily refers to a Book. The Quran comes from the word 'qara'a' which means 'read' or 'recite'. Hence, even before the Quran was compiled into a Book, the Quran was already mentioned in the Quran itself.

From a Muslim point of view, the Quran is supernatural:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]If the whole of mankind and Jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: Yet the gre[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]ater part of men refuse ( to receive it ) except with ingratitude.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial](Isra 88-89)[/FONT]

The Quran does not say it is a scientific book or history book, although the various ayat that have scientific or historical connotation do not conflict with modern findings and discoveries.

Please provide one scientific verse from the koran that is consonant with modern science without having been abrogated to meet the criteria.

Luzeiro · Sep 4, 2008

FrederickM said:
I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran is not a 'book' but rather by Muslim beliefs, a collection of prophecies given by al-lah to spread to the people and reconvert them to the 'right ways'
So to call it a 'book' I think is incorrect.

The first edition of Milton's Paradise Lost contained ten books. The naive youngster who wanted to read them all, went to the library and asked for the first one. However, the child soon discovered that by book, the writer meant chapter.

The koran is a book of one thought mishmashing to another without coherence or effort to achieve it.

mo.mentum · Sep 13, 2008

The koran is a book of one thought mishmashing to another without coherence or effort to achieve it.

Enlighten us on how the following is mishmashed and incoherent:

21: 1 CLOSER DRAWS unto men their reckoning: and yet they remain stubbornly heedless [of its approach].

21:2 Whenever there comes unto them any new reminder from their Sustainer, they but listen to it with playful amusement,

21:3 their hearts set on passing delights; yet they who are [thus] bent on wrongdoing conceal their innermost thoughts [when they say to one another], “Is this [Muhammad] anything but a mortal like yourselves? Will you, then, yield to [his] spellbinding eloquence with your eyes open?’’

21:4 Say: “My Sustainer knows whatever is spoken in heaven and on earth; and He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing.”

21:5 “Nay,” they say, “[Muhammad propounds] the most involved and confusing of dreams!” “Nay, but he has invented [all] this!” - “Nay, but he is [only] a poet!” - [and,] “Let him, then, come unto us with a miracle, just as those [prophets] of old were sent [with miracles]?”

21:6 Not one of the communities that We destroyed in bygone times would ever believe [their prophets]: will these, then, [be more willing to] believe?

21:7 For [even] before thy time, [O Muhammad,] We never sent [as Our apostles] any but [mortal] men, whom We inspired - hence, [tell the deniers of the truth,] “If you do not know this, ask the followers of earlier revelation”

21:8 and neither did We endow them with bodies that could dispense with food nor were they immortal.

21:9 In the end, We made good unto them Our promise, and We saved them and all whom We willed [to save], and We destroyed those who had wasted their own selves.

21:10 [O MEN!] We have now bestowed upon you from on high a divine writ containing all that you ought to bear in mind will you not, then, use your reason?

This is the style of the Qur'an throughout. An invitation to be inquisitive and a reminder of those who have come before you and their own arguments against God. People today think they're so much brighter than their ancestors...hah.

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