Church and State?

No not a seperation, It mean that no one man can handle all things. Thats where the body of Christ comes in. Not everyone is an ear, we all have different gifts, etc. and come together as one

I've never suspected God ever wanted christianity intermingled with Government.

Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

I wouldn't consider that evidence, especially when you look at the rest of the Old Testament. That law was about how to set up a theocratic nation, plain and simple. We are in New Testament times with a different mission now though. This is why the early Christians preached to sorcerers and drove demons out of mediums rather than rounding them up and stoning them to death.

awitch said:

In Chapter 27 of Numbers, God has Moses to climb up Mount Abarim and tells him to pass on his authority before he dies.

So Moses taps Eleazer to take priestly authority (which gets passed down to his descendants). Then Moses taps Joshua with the authority to govern the Israelites (which is not hereditary). The two take the responsibilities independently.

I suspect this was done because even Moses had problems dealing the with the responsibility of both roles. For example, when he was away from the people on Mt Sinai dealing with God, the people became rebellious, and when he was trying to give the people what they wanted, he ignored God's instructions (like when he gave the people water by striking a rock even though God said not to).

So...is this not Biblical evidence that God wants a separation between religion and politics?

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No - especially not with the example that you have used which was a theocracy.

Here is an example from the New testament which speaks to your very concern:

Romans 13
1. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.


This passage adressed in context the concern you brought up from the words of Christ and no it doesnt point to seperation of church and state - because ultimately God is who it all should be based on.

awitch said:

In Chapter 27 of Numbers, God has Moses to climb up Mount Abarim and tells him to pass on his authority before he dies.

So Moses taps Eleazer to take priestly authority (which gets passed down to his descendants). Then Moses taps Joshua with the authority to govern the Israelites (which is not hereditary). The two take the responsibilities independently.

I suspect this was done because even Moses had problems dealing the with the responsibility of both roles. For example, when he was away from the people on Mt Sinai dealing with God, the people became rebellious, and when he was trying to give the people what they wanted, he ignored God's instructions (like when he gave the people water by striking a rock even though God said not to).

So...is this not Biblical evidence that God wants a separation between religion and politics?

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Um, no. It's an example of God working with the limitations of individuals and spreading the load. Judaism and Christianity (and Islam for that matter) are inherently political as well as religious - in fact ancient Jews and early Christians would be unable to even conceive of politics and religion being different categories. The gospel itself is a political statement: "Jesus is Lord" (so Caesar is not).

The idea of separation of religion and politics is really a post-enlightnment one designed to reduce Christianity to a private spirituality that doesn't actually challenge anything. It works find if your religion is really deism or gnostism pretending to be Christianity, but it's completely incompatible with historic Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

awitch said:

So...is this not Biblical evidence that God wants a separation between religion and politics?

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I agree with the previous reply about keeping the context within the OT, since as was pointed out, Israel was a theocracy and would therefore debunk your specific argument.

However, I suppose your real question was about how we as Christians should express (or not express) our faith in our political lives. I humbly submit the following:

First, we should just get it out there that the whole issue of "Separation of church and state" has been miscontextualized. The whole point of that statement was to say that the government should never control the church.

Next, I would ask you if you believe that Christians should keep their faith out of their politics. If you do, I would have to ask you, "How?"

Take yourself as an example. These are guesses based on your name and stated religion, so feel free to correct me on any point.

Your name is Awitch and your religion is Pagan, so I would assume that you feel strongly about the protection of the environment. Is it reasonable to ask you not to consider what someone may do to the Earth if elected? Of course not, your beliefs determine your politics. So as a Christian, how am I supposed to divorce my faith from my politics when it is the source from which I determine them?

Ok, so what about our leaders, how much religion should they be allowed to have?

Answer: As much as they want.

The reason I say this is because if someone is a religious person, it defines their behavior in very specific ways. To ask someone to live and act seperately from personal religious convictions is crazy.

And besides, do you know what we call someone who believes one thing in private but acts in a completely different way in public?...a hypocrite.

awitch said:

In Chapter 27 of Numbers, God has Moses to climb up Mount Abarim and tells him to pass on his authority before he dies.

So Moses taps Eleazer to take priestly authority (which gets passed down to his descendants). Then Moses taps Joshua with the authority to govern the Israelites (which is not hereditary). The two take the responsibilities independently.

I suspect this was done because even Moses had problems dealing the with the responsibility of both roles. For example, when he was away from the people on Mt Sinai dealing with God, the people became rebellious, and when he was trying to give the people what they wanted, he ignored God's instructions (like when he gave the people water by striking a rock even though God said not to).

So...is this not Biblical evidence that God wants a separation between religion and politics?

Click to expand...

No. In addition to the fine answers you've already received, it was God who established Israel to be a theocracy in the first place.

Second, I'm guessing that you're laboring under the liberal myth that the "seperation of church and state" means Christians and other religious people should not have a say in the government, instead of it's true meaning, that the government should not interfere in the affairs of the church.

awitch said:

Your "liberal myth" conspiracy theory is not what "separation and church and state" meant either - we call that fallacy a strawman argument.

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The phrase "seperation of church and state" means that the government is not to interfere in the affairs of the church, not that religious people cannot bring their convictions with them to Washington.

So God wanted Israel to be a theocracy. What does that mean for democratic republics like the US? Are Christians looking for it to be a theocracy, or do they want to introduce Biblical based laws onto the population?

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No. No Christian that I've ever heard has any desire to see us become a theocracy because they understand both the Constitution and the fact that God now deals with individuals, not with nations, as He did under the OC.

In fact, Baptists, the largest Christian sect in the US are guided and defined by a code called the "Baptist Distinctives", one of which is seperation of church and state.

awitch said:

So God wanted Israel to be a theocracy. What does that mean for democratic republics like the US? Are Christians looking for it to be a theocracy, or do they want to introduce Biblical based laws onto the population?

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Some Christians might, but most of us just want to see our culture preserved/restored and to see justice done as we understand it. This is tempered by many Christians seeing the Constitution as a "Bible" for our government.

awitch said:

And if there is no authority that doesn't come from God, then why are people not stoned for practicing witchcraft, being homosexual, or eating shellfish? (I thought it was because secular rule forbade it).

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Again you are errant in your biblical application. Christians are not under the law and you keep giving examples from a theocracy. I would love to help you further but cannot as long as you insist on applying theocratic issues of the OT to the church. Your question was answered though.

awitch said:

My concern is when a religious person in office wants to either impose those religious ideas on those who are not of the same religion, or promote one religion over another.

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Glad we could see eye to eye on all of that

Could you be more specific on what you mean by imposing religious ideas as relating to politics?