Scrutiny for Evolution... but what about ID and Creationism?

MrGoodBytes

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You have said two things about evolution in this post, the same two things that were said of "Goddidit" in the OP. namely, that evolution is not testable, and that evolution is useless as an explanation for anything.

Let's see if these are true, shall we?

First of all, let's deal with your claim that evolution is not testable.

Okay. In science, tests are carried out like this:

We go out and gather evidence from the real world. We get that evidence, and try to come up with an idea that explains that evidence. We get the idea and then we see if that idea suggests that something will happen that we haven't seen yet. Then, we go out and see if that thing is really out there.

For example, if we gather data X, Y and Z, we can come up with an idea to explain it. Now, this idea might also say that A, B and C exist. We didn't see A, B or C when we were out gathering evidence, so we go out and see if we can find A, B or C. And if we DO find A, B or C, then it supports our idea.

An example from the real world?

A fellow named Dmitri Mendeleev once tried to put all the elements know at the time into some meaningful order, the forerunner to today's periodic table. he did this by putting the elements into order from lightest to heaviest. However, when he did this, he noticed there were some gaps. Dmitri looked at these gaps and, by understanding the pattern that existed in the part of the table that he had been able to complete, he was able to not only predict that there were undiscovered elements that would fit into those holes, but he was also able to predict what the properties of those elements would be!

And lo and behold, he was proven correct! Scandium, gallium, technetium and germanium were all predicted to exist by him, and he was correctly able to prdict the properties that they had by using the idea he had.

Now, if his idea was wrong, do you think he would have been able to make such accurate predictions? of course not.

Well, the thing is that evolution predicts that certain things will be out there as well, just as Dmitri's idea for the periodic table predicted the unknown elements. And, if we find these things out there, as evolution predicted, then it supports evolution. This is just the same way that the predictions that Dmitri made using his idea about the periodic table would show that his idea was right if the predictions were shown to be true.

So, what does evolution predict?

Evolution predicts that there are transitional species. A transitional species is a species that shows a middle point between two other species. It does NOT mean an animal that is, say, half fish and half dog. Evolution does not make such huge jumps - it is a gradual change over a long time.

Some examples of transitional fossils include the titanotheres (an extinct type of animal). They existed in many different species, and they had horns. We have a progression of fossils which show how the different species gradually developed the horns. They went from early species with small horns to later species with larger horns. This is a series of transitional species that show how the horns got larger and larger as the titanotheres evolved to be different species.

Darwin was able to look at fossil apes and predict that humans first evolved in Africa. Since then, this has been shown to be very accurate.

Also, when we look at the relationships between predators and prey, the evolution of the prey animals has a predicatble effect on the predators.

Ernst Mayr predicted in 1954 that speciation should be accompanied with faster genetic evolution. A phylogenetic analysis has supported this prediction.

For some more predictions that evolutionary theory has made that have turned out to be true, have a look at THIS video.

Also, the theory of evolution has been put to practical use. For example, Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions. Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields. And diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture. The evolutionary principles of natural selection, variation, and recombination are the basis for genetic algorithms, an engineering technique that has many practical applications, including aerospace engineering, architecture, astrophysics, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, and systems engineering

If evolution was not correct, all these things would be pretty much impossible. So you can see that evolution is testable (through the finds in the fossil record which can be predicted by using evolutionary theory) and it is also used in science today.

Now, AV, you've said before that you don't understand evolution. Please, make the attempt to understamnd it even a little before you dismiss it, okay? Dismissing something that you freely acknowledge you don't understand doesn't really help your cause. Imagine - if you understood it and still dismissed it, then you'd be able to at least make much better rebuttals of evolution. At the moment, you're not dismissing evolution, simply your own false ideas about it.
Excellent post. Not that AV1611VET will read a word of it, but excellent nonetheless.
 
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Valkhorn

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I think YOU are doing that. I asked you what is the issue. Where is your response? What is the problem about rock and flood? Can you think or you just have a big mouth?

Many members have given you the evidence in other threads. It's not my fault if you can't listen. This thread is asking why people like you are dishonest.

For evidence, check out these threads please:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7254598
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7231426
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7154453

And, that's just what's on the front page. I've also seen you post here and be given first hand evidence against a global flood and a 6000 year old earth. In fact, just by google searching, I found this thread:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7109715

Where we gave you page after page of evidence that you ignored.

Thank you for more dishonesty.
 
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AV1611VET

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More importantly can AVET address (meaningfully) the queries raised ni thread 14?
Not to a Junior Member with 36 posts who comes on here telling me I have to do something I've been doing here for two years, I won't. It would take a long post to answer that, and just like I did in the above post, it would probably get handwaved away. You're more than welcome to Google anything I've said though. Or, if you have one specific point you'd like me to clarify --- I'm all "ears."
 
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AV1611VET

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You have said two things about evolution in this post, the same two things that were said of "Goddidit" in the OP. namely, that evolution is not testable, and that evolution is useless as an explanation for anything.
I did not say that --- I was careful not to.
 
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AV1611VET

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Would you kindly explain the connection between constructing an artificial human being and the ToE? I don't see it.
What's it called --- cloning? Or some such junk?
 
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Open

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Hi AV. How I love your posts. Dismissive. Rude. Arrogant.

As for my last post..... Not a demand. Meerly a question? (Note the question mark...)
I forgive your rudeness and arrogance. But do you have to judge me too, by assuming a handwave.
But if the Emperor has no clothes.......

You know, some of us like to listen more than speak.
But I've been following these posts for over 6 months now (I like lurking). But this is one issue I fail to see well addressed.

I cannot ask you to clarify a point on evolution as in previous threads you have specifically admitted your lack of interest in logic/reason etc. So I'm coming over to your 'turf'.

You have the position that 'Goddidit'. Let's discuss your evidence.

If you cannot be arsed getting involved in something more lengthy, so be it. If you have answered these issues on other threads, I'd be interested for the references.
Bottom line. If 'Science can take a hike', show us why we should take the Bible seriously.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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What's it called --- cloning? Or some such junk?
Cloning means making a genetic duplicate of an existing organism. I'm not sure why you would call it "junk" , but I'm sure you have your reasons. In any case, I still don't see the connection between cloning and the ToE.
 
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Vene

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Not to a Junior Member with 36 posts who comes on here telling me I have to do something I've been doing here for two years, I won't. It would take a long post to answer that, and just like I did in the above post, it would probably get handwaved away. You're more than welcome to Google anything I've said though. Or, if you have one specific point you'd like me to clarify --- I'm all "ears."
Because in AV's little world the more you say the more correct you are.

Actually, you are beginning to sound a lot like Lenin
"A lie told often enough becomes the truth."
 
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Split Rock

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What's it called --- cloning? Or some such junk?

Cloning means making a genetic duplicate of an existing organism. I'm not sure why you would call it "junk" , but I'm sure you have your reasons. In any case, I still don't see the connection between cloning and the ToE.

That's because there is none. AVET just likes to make lots of posts.. making sense is secondary. Of course, no matter what he asks science to show him, he has conclusively stated it will make no difference to him anyway. My advice.. don't bother.
 
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rjw

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Let me refresh your memory here ---Should I be perfectly satisfied with the explanation "evolution did it" even though it's not testable?

Let me make it easier for you to understand AV. One thing at a time perhaps.

What do you mean by the word "testable" when you claim that evolution is not testable. You must have some idea as to what you think evolution does not do such that it is not testable.


So how about telling me what you mean by "testable".

My bet is that you would have no problem if I claimed "you cannot catch a ball", to which you asked "what do you mean by the word 'catch'?" So why do you have a problem understanding my question here?

As for your last question – well yes. Put it this way, you cannot grumble, if you accept “God did it” and do so on faith. Obviously “evolution did it” is equally valid, and for the same reason, at the very least. No evidence needed.



Regards, Roland
 
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juvenissun

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Many members have given you the evidence in other threads. It's not my fault if you can't listen. This thread is asking why people like you are dishonest.

For evidence, check out these threads please:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7254598
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7231426
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7154453

And, that's just what's on the front page. I've also seen you post here and be given first hand evidence against a global flood and a 6000 year old earth. In fact, just by google searching, I found this thread:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7109715

Where we gave you page after page of evidence that you ignored.

Thank you for more dishonesty.

I think YOU are dishonest.

Could you rephrase ONE evidence which is against creation? Even you copy other's idea, as long as you copy it and present it as a complete sentence, I will take it as yours.

I guess you not only can't think, but is afraid of doing so.

This is my last invitation to you.
 
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Lucretius

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Valkhorn, dishonest?

He's ripped apart Creationism so many times that, even after I took a year-long break from this site, I come back to find out he's STILL at it!

I wouldn't find it odd that some of those links he gave you were some of his own. There is so much evidence against the notion of Creation (or rather, that it is much more reasonable to accept evolution, thus making Creationism unreasonable in comparison) there isn't much to present.

Take for instance, my favorite, the cytochrome C gene. This little 100-some amino acid long protein is functional in some 10^92 different ways. If a Creator were behind it, we find no reason for these gene sequences to be similar in different species. And yet, take humans and chimps for instance: the gene is exactly the same. This ONLY makes sense in light of evolution. Unless, out of 10^92 functionally similar organizations; God just decided to make the chimp and us exactly alike. Could be; but this is VERY unreasonable, and NOT the most likely explanation.

There, evidence against Creation.
 
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Valkhorn

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I think YOU are dishonest.

Could you rephrase ONE evidence which is against creation? Even you copy other's idea, as long as you copy it and present it as a complete sentence, I will take it as yours.

I guess you not only can't think, but is afraid of doing so.

This is my last invitation to you.
Why rehash what others have so eloquently put? The evidence is there, why are you so dishonest that you can't even look?

I even pointed to a thread where others showed you contrary evidence and you subsequently ignored it.

I don't know what word you might have for this behavior, but to me when you make a claim that isn't true (namely that no one has shown you contrary evidence) and when you are shown that is being dishonest you ask me to show you the evidence. When I do show you the evidence you claim it isn't there or isn't good enough or that if others wrote it its somehow invalid.

If that isn't duplicitous behavior, that is at the very least dishonesty.

Also, this thread is not about evidence for evolution and against creationism - in fact it's almost the opposite. It is asking why creationists like yourself avoid scrutiny and prefer dishonesty.

Instead of begging for evidence (which you have been shown repeatedly and which I have linked you to) why don't you address the issue at hand? Instead of holding scrutiny against the opposing side why aren't you holding scrutiny of your ideas?

This thread isn't about the Evolution supporters and those who support an ancient Earth not providing data - for if you spent five seconds looking around this forum you would see plenty. This thread is about the creationists and intelligent design supporters refusing to show evidence, refusing to scrutinize their ideas, and being dishonest.

In this thread you have

1) Refused to show your own evidence or look at opposing evidence (this is Ignorance)
2) Been shown another thread where you never were critical of your own ideas yet were constantly critical of others (hypocrisy).
3) And shown where you were dishonest about never being shown data which contradicted your worldview when in fact a one minute google search for your screenname showed one thread near the top of the list where you were shown data which opposed your worldview and in that thread you refused to acknowledge it. If that isn't dishonesty, I don't know what is.

Finally, the honus is on you to do your own research. Time and time again creationists such as yourself beg for ways to be shown wrong, are shown dozens of ways that they are, and dishonestly refuse to listen and keep perpetuating the lies. AV1611 is guilty of this. JohnR when he posted here was guilty of this. Supersport was guilty of this. Many creationists that have posted were guilty of this - and I'm not sure why the dishonesty doesn't bother you.

I have pointed you to other research, other evidence as have dozens of others here. I will not derail the thread by doing a futile argument with someone who has not shown the willingness to listen to the other side or is willing to consider any evidence which shows that they are wrong.

Now, the topic at hand is not whether one side is right or the other is wrong. The topic of this thread is why creationists and ID supporters refuse to criticize their own flock and refuse to be intellectually honest. If you care to discuss this topic, please do.

Otherwise your absence will only show your dishonesty and unwillingness to be critical of your own world view.

Oh and Lucretius, thank you for that. Have some reps.
 
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ReverendDG

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Okay, start with this challenge and let's see how you handle it --- impress me.
your evidence is, there is no evidence, god can do what ever he likes. so you just have to take what a book that claims to be from god as evidence, on faith.
your "challenges" are useless and meaningless, they have no relation to reality or rational people.
give it up
 
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