The Reality of Universal Salvation in Scripture

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livingword26

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The NT was the full revelations to the Jews. We only benefit through them. The rich man and Lazarus was a parable not an actual event. It was the end of a continuing thread of parables.

Even parables have meaning. Perhaps you can offer an interpretation since you dont' believe it refers to an actual hell.

Luk 16:20-31
(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
(21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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livingword26

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The Lake of fire is part of Johns vision. Unless your saying there is a physical realm after this one.

All of Revelation is a vision given to John from God. Are you saying that the Lake of Fire is not a real place. If not then what is it?

Rev 20:15
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
 
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Nadiine

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The Lake of fire is part of Johns vision. Unless your saying there is a physical realm after this one.
The physical realms never end. In fact, the earth isn't "destroyed"... it's purified by God and we will inhabit it.

God isn't destroying Creation - it's going to be regenerated/renewed which I think is awesome.:clap:
 
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Nadiine

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:o I still don't know how to do that. :o


I like the clothes change on your characters Nadiine and IAR!! :pink:
hey sweety!! :hug:
Oh boy, I don't change my clothes for over 6 months at a time lol It felt good to finally put something new on my CF dolly. LOL

Anyways, ya I know, it took me months before I figured out how to break up text like that manually & multiquote...
& at 4 posts somebody blows in, starts taking a regular member to task on this particular thread in the Theology/Philosophy & ethics section....:eek:
MOST brand newbies are just feeling out the congregation areas or other less 'invasive' places as they get their feet wet; even people who are used to forums don't usually do that with just 4 posts in a brand new place.

oh well. lol
 
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Zecryphon

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You're lucky I'm preoccupied Zec.
^_^ ^_^
(puts pointy stick back in purse)
Pre-occupied with getting the fisk off the stick? LOL I'm ready for you to hit me with your cafeteria tray too. LOL
 
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Zecryphon

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Zecryphon,

I have yet to find a scripture that speaks of an eternal hell. If folks would just take the small amount of time to look up what is meant by the word hell, they would know there was only 3 meanings.
1.A place where the spirit of man resided until Christ fulfillment of all things which was accomplished in 70 A.D..
2. A covering..ie the grave.
3. The Fires of Gehenna, which as you've amply show was indeed the dump outside Jerusalem.
God Bless..
Matthew 25:30 speaks of a disobedient servant being cast into outer darkness. What does "outer darkness" mean to you?

Then there's this:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Here is the Thayer entry on the word "everlasting" which is used in the King James.

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

Here is the Thayer definition of the word "punishment" which is found in the King James.

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
 
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Zecryphon

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So what your saying is that if they had burned their children unto him, then he would have been fine with it? Uhh... wow.

No, that's not what I'm saying. God never demanded children or people be burned as a sacrifice to Him. Read the Bible man and you won't draw such ridiculous conclusions.

A smattering of self deprecating humor at the end of an opinion gets your attention?!? LOL! If only the scriptural evidences I present would fair so well!

Indeed.

Care to name names?

Care to read the thread? I already have named names. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, James and John.

Are you saying Acts 20:27 is in error?

KJV Act 20:25-27 - "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

No but that's how you would take it. He declared all the counsel that God had given him.

I think the word your looking for is dismissed.

Ah yes, that's what you would conclude, isn't it? Because we don't fall over and agree with you, we must be dismissing verses. LOL

Care then to address the other verses I offered? Romans 5:18-21, I Corinthians 12:22, Philippians 2:9-11, John 12: 32, 1 John 2:2, I John 4: 14, Romans 11: 26- 32, I'm especially interested in your thoughts regarding the salvation of ALL of Israel?

This has already been covered numerous times. there is no need to go over it again, because you won't read the other threads on this topic.

You also missed my question regarding Matthew 5:44 - "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"Is God a do as I say, not as I do, type? This teaching is completely incompatible with eternal torment.

We are to love our enemies and do good and all that fun stuff. But the judgment of mankind is God's to make not ours. When God decides to send a goat to Hell, what good do you think praying for that goat will do? Do you believe a person can be prayed out of Hell?

I'd like to point out that the scriptures I submitted is plain straight teaching, not parable or prophetic symbolism. You wouldn't happen to have any of that on ET side would you?

There is Matthew 5:22 where Jesus is speaking plainly.

Mat 5:22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

There is Matthew 5:29 where Jesus is speaking plainly.

Mat 5:29If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30, Jesus speaking again, plainly.

Mat 5:30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

More of Jesus, not speaking in a parable, but plainly.

Mat 10:28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

These verses pretty much destroy your insinuation that we don't have verses outside of parables or symbolism that teach about Hell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon

How many definitions do you think that phrase can have?


Sorry it wasn't clear. What I was getting at... is that we don't know what Paul was referring to when he used the term doctrine of demons... He didn't elaborate on what the actual doctrine was. So it was the doctrine, referred to as doctrine of demons... that went undefined, unexplained. It could have been anything... it might have even been the doctrine of ET.

One doctrine we know Paul strenuously objected to was that of the Judaizers who claimed that you had to be circumcised along with having faith in Christ to be saved. If there is any doctrine that could be considered a doctrine of demons that would be it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Could have been? In other words you don't know what the false gospel he was talking about is. Got it.


Exactly. And neither do you...

I've got a better suspect than you do. LOL

because -doctrine of demons- was never defined. We don't know what exactly what he was referring to in this epistle. ...and saying "Got it." is a tad snippy doncha think.

Nope, saying "got it" is saying I understand. If you think that's "snippy" that's something you're reading into it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Anything that suggests there is another way to be saved apart from faith in Christ in this life is a false gospel.


They were arguing law vs. grace... I think I've already submitted ample scriptural evidence that the Bible "suggests" all will be saved. Are you suggesting I toss - 1st Timothy, Romans, 1st Corinthians, Philippians, the Gospel of John, and 1st John - out as false gospel?

Not at all. In 1 Corinthians we see evidence of who will not be saved. If you looked at the other books you mention I'm sure there are statements as to who will and will not be saved as well.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Yep and we've seen plenty of it from the UR camp too. So stop trying to paint them as good and the ET's as the bad guys.


Just my NSHObservation.

Yes and it's a biased one too.
 
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Zecryphon

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it's really amazing how brand spanking Newbies know how to post like this & do this level of debate so quickly - right into negative refutations.
2 in a row on the same thread.

wow
Yeah, I'm smelling a dirty sock. LOL
 
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Floatingaxe

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hey sweety!! :hug:
Oh boy, I don't change my clothes for over 6 months at a time lol It felt good to finally put something new on my CF dolly. LOL

Anyways, ya I know, it took me months before I figured out how to break up text like that manually & multiquote...
& at 4 posts somebody blows in, starts taking a regular member to task on this particular thread in the Theology/Philosophy & ethics section....:eek:
MOST brand newbies are just feeling out the congregation areas or other less 'invasive' places as they get their feet wet; even people who are used to forums don't usually do that with just 4 posts in a brand new place.

oh well. lol


Was thinking the same thing, my dear...
 
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Even parables have meaning. Perhaps you can offer an interpretation since you dont' believe it refers to an actual hell.

Luk 16:20-31
(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
(21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Argh... Parables - Who can know? If someone read a transcript of your preachers sermon and tried to understand his examples 2000 years later I'm pretty sure they'd be lost...

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'd like to take a shot at it, if you don't mind...

The only thing (fault?) mentioned regarding the rich man, was that he lived well every day. The only thing (virtue?) mentioned regarding the beggar was that he was full of sores and wanted to be fed with the rich mans crumbs and that dogs licked his sores... not living well every day...

They both die. The rich man is mentioned as having been buried... The beggar as being carried by angels to Abraham's bosom.

They both end up in an afterlife where they can see and hear each other. The rich man being tormented in a flame, the beggar being comforted by Abraham's bosom.

When the rich man cries for mercy the explanation given him is... you had a good life and now you are tormented... the beggar had a terrible life and is now comforted. That’s it... That’s the explanation.

At this point people will add to this story and assume all sorts of things to make sense out of it... At the very least you have to make the rich man, not just rich but stingy... But the text doesn't say it. Does stingy equal unbelief? Or does stingy break the Mosaic law?

Then the rich man is worried that his brothers will end up in torment like him... A little more insight into the rich man... In spite of his torment he's worried about his brothers... He asks Abraham, to send the beggar to his house to testify to them because they would repent if visited by someone from the dead. Repent from what, one wonders... being rich?

Abraham declines his request and tells him that if they were not persuaded by hearing Moses and the prophets, then they wouldn't be persuaded by someone rising from the dead.

There's a problem with this because neither Moses nor the prophets spoke of torment in an afterlife... Did they speak about stingyness???

There seems to be 3 main points... 1) People who live well will be tormented in the afterlife and people who do not live well will be comforted in the afterlife. 2) Repent from being rich... because that’s all we know of them. 3) That if people were not persuaded by scripture readings (Moses & prophets) they would not be persuaded by someone rising from the dead.

Here's my thought... The Essenes lived communally, simply and held everything in common. So perhaps this was about condemning rich people for not being more giving to the community and helping those in need? Many of these parables were directed at the Pharisees who were often described as covetous and lovers of money. The Pharisees believed in an afterlife where the wicked were punished and the righteous rewarded... the Sadducees did not etc...

He could have been teaching them to give of their riches to the poor or that they would suffer the punishment they believed in... in the afterlife they believed in... because they were being wicked by not giving to the poor...

Anyway... we were not the target audience and can therefore only assume what He was getting at... and... doctrine should not be created off parables IMNSHO.

Peace
 
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Nadiine

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Argh... Parables - Who can know?
I love these types of comments...
"who can know" ? In other words, WHY DID GOD BOTHER TO WASTE OUR TIME STICKING THEM IN THE BIBLE IF ABSOLUTELY NOBODY CAN UNDERSTAND THE POINT?
:swoon:

Why did Jesus speak in parables? He told us why:

Luke 8:10
And He said, " To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

MT. 13
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The whole point is, alot will NOT get the parable becuz it's spiritually discernable.
 
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humbledbyhim

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The reality of hell fire for some...


2 Peter 2:4-18 (King James Version)




4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
 
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The physical realms never end. In fact, the earth isn't "destroyed"... it's purified by God and we will inhabit it.

God isn't destroying Creation - it's going to be regenerated/renewed which I think is awesome.:clap:

Seems a shame to post this... you seem so happy that "the earth isn't destroyed"... And I'm not saying it will be... But you should probably know what the scriptures have to say about it...

Isaiah 65:17 - "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Hebrews 1:10-11 - "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish;"

2 Peter 3:10 - "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

And this one is very interesting because you seem to read Revelations as literal regarding the lake of fire and eternal torment why do you not take this literally as well?

Revelations 21:1 - "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."


Of course there are a few verses (I list below) that seems to imply that the earth will last forever, but that would conflict with the verses above, no? perhaps the problem lies with the word "forever". Perhaps the word translated as forever doesn't necessarily mean without end.

Psalm 78:69 - "The earth which he hath established forever."
Psalm 104:5 - "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever."
Ecclesiastes 1:4 - "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever.

For ever (forever)
owlam (o-lawm') concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always
 
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hey sweety!! :hug:
Oh boy, I don't change my clothes for over 6 months at a time lol It felt good to finally put something new on my CF dolly. LOL

Anyways, ya I know, it took me months before I figured out how to break up text like that manually & multiquote...
& at 4 posts somebody blows in, starts taking a regular member to task on this particular thread in the Theology/Philosophy & ethics section....:eek:
MOST brand newbies are just feeling out the congregation areas or other less 'invasive' places as they get their feet wet; even people who are used to forums don't usually do that with just 4 posts in a brand new place.

oh well. lol
I assuming here... but if your referring to me... I read this site for around 3 weeks before signing up and then I made sure to read this thread from the beginning before contributing to the discussion, (not wanting to rehash old ground) but I just happen to have studied extensively the ol eternal torment doctrine as well as the Universalists position... so naturally this thread seemed like as good a place as any.

You almost seem to think that being new on a thread/site makes one new to theology/philosophy and/or debate.

I can tell you I had a heck of a time figuring out how to break up the quote text and had to preview the post a zillion times before it came out... I still haven't figured out to quote myself - when someone responds to me and I respond back - so that the post stays coherent. Any helpful hints?
 
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Nadiine

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I'm limited for time right now, but wanted to just insert this piece until I can present more later.

In the New Testament there are several lines of evidence that support the notion that God has a plan to renew the created order. This is shown through the healing ministry of Christ and the doctrine of the resurrection that highlights the removal of the curse.

However, with respect to nature itself, Acts 3:21 speaks of the restoration of all things to be initiated at the Second Coming of Jesus. Romans 8:19 shows the created order longing for the revealing of the sons of God (at the Second Coming) for its own deliverance as shown above.

Second Peter 3:10-13 speaks of the destruction of the created order by fire. It appears that this is a kind of fiery renovation with a new heaven and a new earth.
This cataclysmic event occurs at the end of the millennium since Revelation 21 shows that the time of the new heaven and new earth follows the thousand years of chapter 20.

Thus, God’s renewal of the created order, which is initiated at the Second Coming, is finalized when God moves His abode (the heavenly Jerusalem) to earth to dwell with men forever. It is at this time that the final enemy–death–is once and for all done away fulfilling the greatest promise that God has ever made (Rev. 21:4). The description of the heavenly city in Revelation 21-22 shows that God’s ultimate plan is to give to mankind more than Adam ever lost in the garden, including a brave new world beyond our wildest imaginations.
 
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Nadiine

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I assuming here... but if your referring to me... I read this site for around 3 weeks before signing up and then I made sure to read this thread from the beginning before contributing to the discussion, (not wanting to rehash old ground) but I just happen to have studied extensively the ol eternal torment doctrine as well as the Universalists position... so naturally this thread seemed like as good a place as any.

You almost seem to think that being new on a thread/site makes one new to theology/philosophy and/or debate.

I can tell you I had a heck of a time figuring out how to break up the quote text and had to preview the post a zillion times before it came out... I still haven't figured out to quote myself - when someone responds to me and I respond back - so that the post stays coherent. Any helpful hints?
Well, no and no.

No, I was calling her "sweety" lol (she's a good friend of mine here), and no, I don't at all assume you're biblically illiterate if you're a newbie. (that would be absurd to even insinuate).

My point was a brand new person coming in on a rampage against established members. I was a newbie myself and did some reading before joining this site, but I did not at all feel right just hopping in & taking people to task.

That's the point that was being made moreso than intellectual capabilities. If you are new, great, welcome!
Just that it would probly be a little better to at least not jump in like that at people right out of the gate. It appears as if it's a sok acct. (we have that happen here quite often and it does get old).
 
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Floatingaxe

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I still haven't figured out to quote myself - when someone responds to me and I respond back - so that the post stays coherent. Any helpful hints?

Aw, it's a pain in the neck, but you have to wrap quotes around that as well. Most of us don't bother, but I have done it when I felt the need.

I apologize for the doubt, and extend a warm welcome here!

We have been plagued lately with a proliferation of "sock puppets" here in CF in the hot debate forums, and CF has no way to deal with it. It has been frustrating for the conservatively minded people, to say the least.
 
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