God-Gambler or Creator?

LightBearer

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God-Gambler or Creator?

"THERE is no doubt that many scientists are opposed temperamentally to any form of metaphysical, let alone mystical arguments. They are scornful of the notion that there might exist a God, or even an impersonal creative principle . . . Personally I do not share their scorn." Thus states Paul Davies, professor of mathematical physics at the University of Adelaide, South Australia, in his book The Mind of God.

Davies also says: "A careful study suggests that the laws of the universe are remarkably felicitous for the emergence of richness and variety. In the case of living organisms, their existence seems to depend on a number of fortuitous coincidences that some scientists and philosophers have hailed as nothing short of astonishing."

He further states: "The scientific quest is a journey into the unknown. . . . But through it all runs the familiar thread of rationality and order. We shall see that this cosmic order is underpinned by definite mathematical laws that interweave each other to form a subtle and harmonious unity. The laws are possessed of an elegant simplicity."

Davies concludes by saying: "Just why Homo sapiens should carry the spark of rationality that provides the key to the universe, is a deep enigma. . . . I cannot believe that our existence in this universe is a mere quirk of fate, an accident of history, an incidental blip in the great cosmic drama. Our involvement is too intimate. . . . We are truly meant to be here." However, Davies does not come to the conclusion that there is a Designer, a God. But what conclusion do you reach? Was mankind meant to be here? If so, who meant for us to be here?

Keys to the "Enigma"

In the Bible the apostle Paul offers a clue to understanding what Davies calls "a deep enigma." Paul shows how God has revealed himself: "Because what may be known about God is manifest among them ["men who are suppressing the truth"], for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." (Romans 1:18-20) Yes, the endless variety of life forms, their incredible complexity, their exquisite design, should lead a humble, reverent person to recognize that there is a supreme power, intelligence, or mind vastly superior to anything that man has ever known.-Psalm 8:3, 4.

Paul's further words regarding those who reject God give one pause for thought: "Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish . . . , even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 1:22, 25) Those who venerate "nature" and reject God are certainly not wise from Jehovah's viewpoint. Bogged down in the morass of conflicting evolutionary theories, they fail to recognize the Creator and the intricacy and design of his creation.

"Monstrous Series of Accidents"

Paul also wrote: "Without faith it is impossible to please him [God] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." (Hebrews 11:6) Faith based on accurate knowledge, not credulity, can lead us to an understanding of why we exist. (Colossians 1:9, 10) Surely, credulity is involved when some scientists would have us believe that life exists because it is "as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row."

British scientist Fred Hoyle theorized that nuclear reactions that led to the formation of two elements essential to life, carbon and oxygen, produced a balanced relative amount of these elements only because of a fortunate accident.

He gives another example: "If the combined masses of the proton and electron were suddenly to become a little more rather than a little less than the mass of the neutron, the effect would be devastating. . . . Throughout the Universe all the hydrogen atoms would immediately break down to form neutrons and neutrinos. Robbed of its nuclear fuel, the Sun would fade and collapse." The same would be true of the billions of other stars in the universe.

Hoyle concluded: "The list of . . . apparent accidents of a non-biological nature without which carbon-based and hence human life could not exist, is large and impressive." He says: "Such properties [essential to life] seem to run through the fabric of the natural world like a thread of happy accidents. But there are so many of these odd coincidences essential to life that some explanation seems required to account for them."-Italics ours.

He also stated: "The problem is to decide whether these apparently coincidental tunings are really accidental or not, and therefore whether or not life is accidental. No scientist likes to ask such a question, but it has to be asked for all that. Could it be that the tunings are intelligently deliberate?"

Paul Davies writes: "Hoyle was so impressed by this 'monstrous series of accidents,' he was prompted to comment that it was as if 'the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce inside the stars.'" Who or what is responsible for this "monstrous series of [fortunate] accidents"? Who or what produced this speck of a planet, teeming with an almost endless variety of millions of exquisitely formed plants and creatures?

The Bible's Answer

The psalmist wrote reverently some three thousand years ago: "How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions. As for this sea so great and wide, there there are moving things without number, living creatures, small as well as great."-Psalm 104:24, 25.

The apostle John said: "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11) Life is not the result of blind chance, of some cosmic lottery that happened to churn out winners for millions of life forms.

The simple truth is that God "created all things, and because of [his] will they existed and were created." Jesus Christ himself said to the Pharisees: "Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female?" Jesus knew the Creator! As Jehovah's Master Worker, he had been alongside Him during creation.-Matthew 19:4; Proverbs 8:22-31.

However, it requires faith and humility to perceive and accept this basic truth about the Creator. This faith is not blind credulity. It is based on tangible, visible evidence. Yes, "[God's] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward."-Romans 1:20.

With our present limited scientific knowledge, we cannot explain how God created. Therefore, we should acknowledge that at present we cannot know or understand everything about the origin of life. We are reminded of this when we read Jehovah's words: "The thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways . . . For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."-Isaiah 55:8, 9.

The choice is yours: either credulous belief in blind and fortuitous evolution, the numberless gambles that supposedly paid off, or faith in the Purposer-Creator-Designer, Jehovah God. The inspired prophet rightly said: "Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding."-Isaiah 40:28.

So, what will you believe? Your decision will make a big difference in your future life prospects. If evolution were true, then death would mean total oblivion, in spite of the specious arguments of labyrinthine Catholic theology, which attempts to introduce the "soul" into evolution. Man has no immortal soul to soften the inevitable blow of mortality.-Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

If we accept that the Bible is true and that the living God is the Creator, then there is the promise of the resurrection to eternal life, perfect life, on an earth restored to its original state of balance and harmony. (John 5:28, 29) Where will you put your faith? In the unbelievable gamble of Darwin's evolution theory? Or in the Creator, who has acted with purpose and continues to do so?
 

lucaspa

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To answer the question at the beginning of the thread: neither of the above. Or rather, God could easily have created a species capable of communicating with it by means of natural selection without taking a gamble.

Evolution is NOT chance. Left to itself, it is inevitable that evolution would produce a sentient species. The present physical form of that species -- us -- is due to historical accident. But in exploring the Library of Mendel, it is inevitable that evolution would find the genes for sentience.

The rest of the post is the Strong Anthropic Principle, which is a simple error of logic.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by LightBearer
[BThe choice is yours: either credulous belief in blind and fortuitous evolution,... So, what will you believe? Your decision will make a big difference in your future life prospects. If evolution were true, then death would mean total oblivion,... If we accept that the Bible is true and that the living God is the Creator,...Or in the Creator, who has acted with purpose and continues to do so? [/B]

These aren't the only two choices. The third choice -- that God created using evolution -- is the choice that most Christian denominations have accepted.

Evolution has nothing to say about possible life after death or any "spirits" or "souls".  To paint evolution as saying this is simply scare tactics.

Now, when you get to the part "we accept the Bible as true" what you really mean is "when we accept that our human, fallible, interpretation is the correct one"  This isn't about the Bible or God vs evolution. This is about the interpretation of the Bible invented by fallible, prideful people who insist that their interpretation is right -- even in the face of evidence God left in His Creation that their interpretation is wrong. 

I know your mind is made up, but for anyone wanting to see how you can have a "living God and Creator" working through evolution, I suggest Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller and Can a Darwinian be a Christian? by Michael Ruse.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Now, when you get to the part "we accept the Bible as true" what you really mean is "when we accept that our human, fallible, interpretation is the correct one" This isn't about the Bible or God vs evolution. This is about the interpretation of the Bible invented by fallible, prideful people who insist that their interpretation is right -- even in the face of evidence God left in His Creation that their interpretation is wrong.

What an excellent quote.

Lightbearer,
Is it willful deception that proposes those two options as the only ones? Surely you can fathom a God who would take imperfect things and make them better. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? God guides our spiritual evolution through various stages, and sometimes, those stages are painful stages that people tend to call accidents and tragedies. It's his modus operandi in the metaphysical realm - why not the physical? I have a feeling that's what he's done with our interpretations of Scripture as well; we now can read his book called Nature so that we may interpret his book called the Bible better.

For the record, my brand of theistic evolution might be considered somewhat teleological when contrasted to lucaspa's statement, "The present physical form of that species -- us -- is due to historical accident." I think rather that God, being all-knowing, knew all along that we humans were to be his crowning achievement (the Bible seems to bear this out), and has "guided" evolution in the sense that it hasn't gone anywhere he didn't want it to. I guess that's the intractable mystery in trying to distinguish foreknowledge and predetermination!
 
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Morat

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Except, of course, for the fact that the squid eye is superior. And no engineer would design a camera where the cables ran through the center of the lens. And the human knee is, of course, badly designed. And the human spine isn't all that well designed, either.

The human body works. That's about all you can really say about it.
 
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heusdens

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Originally posted by Didaskomenos
What an excellent quote.

Lightbearer,
Is it willful deception that proposes those two options as the only ones? Surely you can fathom a God who would take imperfect things and make them better. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? God guides our spiritual evolution through various stages, and sometimes, those stages are painful stages that people tend to call accidents and tragedies. It's his modus operandi in the metaphysical realm - why not the physical? I have a feeling that's what he's done with our interpretations of Scripture as well; we now can read his book called Nature so that we may interpret his book called the Bible better.

For the record, my brand of theistic evolution might be considered somewhat teleological when contrasted to lucaspa's statement, "The present physical form of that species -- us -- is due to historical accident." I think rather that God, being all-knowing, knew all along that we humans were to be his crowning achievement (the Bible seems to bear this out), and has "guided" evolution in the sense that it hasn't gone anywhere he didn't want it to. I guess that's the intractable mystery in trying to distinguish foreknowledge and predetermination!

There's no guidance or god needed, once he created the matter, time and space our universe exists of. The universe is infinite in extent, so there were infinite many galaxies and stars and planets, in which life could come into existance. We appearently live on a planet in which this succeeded.
Not by guidance, but because in infitely many cases, the star, or planet was destroyed or some accident happened that prevented life to evolve completely. If you have infinite time and infinite possibilities to try, it will become a sure thing.

Even if the (present) universe is in fact (as supposed) finite in size and time, who can exclude this is the only universe that came into existence.
Why should this universe be unique?
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by The-Doctor
Whilst I accept we are all Human and falible I pretty sure such a perfect design as man could not simply have evolved by chance. Take the human eye for example...simple design but more capable than the best camera available today.

This is the argument that got theology in trouble in the 19th century.  As several posters have pointed out, the human body is not that well designed.  If God designed eyes, then the squid eye is a better design. God just forget that a couple of days before it had made a really good design for the eye?  And the spine!! Normal walking destroys the intervertebral discs.  Yet God made a repair mechanism for bones called remodelling. Couldn't do the same for the discs?

Science can accept that a deity designed each species separately. The problem the 19th century naturalists (most of whom were ministers) ran into was that the conclusion about the nature of this god was that it was sadistic, stupid, and suffering from Alzheimer's!    Now science can accept such a deity, but Christianity can't.   It's a major reason the clergy jumped ship from special creation to evolution so fast.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by heusdens
There's no guidance or god needed, once he created the matter, time and space our universe exists of. The universe is infinite in extent, so there were infinite many galaxies and stars and planets, in which life could come into existance. We appearently live on a planet in which this succeeded.

The guidance would be needed to get this exact physical form for H. sapiens.  Let evolution run and you are bound to get a sentient species.  But, there is no certainty you will get our exact physical form.  There are a VAST (very, very large but finite) physical forms that could use tools and still have a brain such that God could communicate with the species.

Now, for God the physical form may not have mattered. After all, God doesn't have a specific physical form, right?  So what does He care if we look like we do or are whales with hands or Raptors with hands?  However, if God wanted this particular form, then He would have had to intervene in causing the particular mutations that led to this form.  He could have done this in a way that we couldn't detect by science.
 
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Be nice if people far up the thread stopped using fancy words to try and show off their "knowledge" and complicate meanings and write some plain English here cos I don't know if you guys are saying you have faith in the Lord or not or even undecided.
As for humans, we are not perfect - not anymore but Genesis tells why when man and woman commited the first sin.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Originally posted by heusdens
There's no guidance or god needed, once he created the matter, time and space our universe exists of. The universe is infinite in extent, so there were infinite many galaxies and stars and planets, in which life could come into existance. We appearently live on a planet in which this succeeded.
Not by guidance, but because in infitely many cases, the star, or planet was destroyed or some accident happened that prevented life to evolve completely. If you have infinite time and infinite possibilities to try, it will become a sure thing.

Even if the (present) universe is in fact (as supposed) finite in size and time, who can exclude this is the only universe that came into existence.
Why should this universe be unique?

Needed? I'm not saying, "evolution couldn't happen without someone guiding it." I think rather that, given that I believe in God, I can only imagine that the fate of his universe would be under his concern, and that his purposes may indeed be served by setting into motion something beforehand. A clockmaker wants his clock to reach 3:42: when it does, can't it be said that the clockmaker is responsible for the clock reaching 3:42?
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by webboffin
Be nice if people far up the thread stopped using fancy words to try and show off their "knowledge" and complicate meanings and write some plain English here cos I don't know if you guys are saying you have faith in the Lord or not or even undecided.
As for humans, we are not perfect - not anymore but Genesis tells why when man and woman commited the first sin.

  ;) It's not important whether you know what my personal beliefs are.  Look at the ideas and the arguments for them.

Sorry, but Genesis is very specific about the punishments that were meted out to Adam and Eve for disobedience. Having a suboptimally designed eye wasn't one of them.  Nor was the imperfections in our spine.  Nothing in the text implies that Adam and Eve were any different in appearance from us.

You can't lay our design flaws on original sin.  Either God is a really poor Designer or we were designed by natural selection. 
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by Didaskomenos
A clockmaker wants his clock to reach 3:42: when it does, can't it be said that the clockmaker is responsible for the clock reaching 3:42?

The problem is that we don't live in a clockmaker's universe.  The universe isn't that deterministic. At a very basic level, the universe is indeterministic.  You can't wind it up and know that it will reach 3:42.

What's worse, mutations are a way of making the indeterminism at the quantum level manifest at the level we live at.  By amplifying the quantum event of changing one base to another, the genome and the individual makes that quantum event manifest in the difference in the individual organism.  See Chapter 6 of Finding Darwin's God for a full discussion.
 
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kern

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God *created* Evolution in the first place -- it's a mistake to imagine the omnipotent God using some independently existing method to create humans. So whether or not he "guided" it is really an irrelevant question -- regardless, it's all attributable to God. "Evolution" and "Creation by God" are not mutually exclusive things.

-Chris
 
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