The Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a Separate Event

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 19, 2008

Here is a copy of a post by Mathetes the Kerux that I lifted from the Non Denom forum so I can give answers to it. I am not allowed to debate over there without some pleasant totally Christian person reporting me..

There is baptism BY the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) whereby at the moment of conversion one is made a member of the Body of Christ as one is unified with the Head of the Body and the other members of the Body. Agreed. This is a ministry of the Spirit where the Spirit is the baptizer/agent and Christ is the element.

But there is the Baptism IN the Spirit which is a ministry OF CHRIST whereby Christ is the baptizer/agent and the Spirit is the element. This is a ministry that is SUBSEQUENT to the salvation act, but may seem simultaneous in some cases (like Acts 10 . . .vs Acts 2, 8, 19).

Just for info . . . this position of a subsequent ministry of the Spirit goes back to the first cent. in MANY theological streams . . . so it is not new. The early catechetical frameworks being the earliest next to Acts . . . and modern day Pentecostals being the latest. But many of those in the last 200 years articulated the same thing . . . the only difference was the function of the Baptism in the Spirit (IE what exactly happens when it happens . . . power for service like Moody, power for service and tongues, like P/C's . . . entire sanctification like many Methodists 200 years ago . . . etc.).

We are told to seek it . . . Luke 24 has Jesus commanding to wait for it . . . Acts 1 says the same . . . Acts 2 says it is for ALL believers.

We must define power too . . . it is NOT the normative work of the Spirit in the process of sanctification and the conqueroring of sin. It is power for the endeavor of the mission of Christ through the church . . . most notably that of proclamation.

While I acknowledge that this is the traditional Pentecostal view, the Scriptural evidence for it is as thin as a wafer. There is the danger of reading into the New Testament things that are not actually there.

It would be good to provide actual quotes from the New Testament that clearly show that there actually is a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that this baptism is an event subsequent to conversion.

Making doctrinal statements without supporting evidence amounts to pure speculation.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 19, 2008

Here is a copy of a post by IisJustMe from the non denom forum that I want to respond to.

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

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(Acts 8:14-18) This passage indicates that those baptized "in the name of Jesus" had taken His name without true belief.

While I am not totally convinced that tongues is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit in a believer, I do not go along with this guy when he seems to be discounting tongues altogether.

I believe that the gift of tongues is an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The ability to prophesy, or to use the gift of healing, or to give a word of knowledge are also evidences. Another evidence is the consciousness of others who are ministered to by the person is that there is a realisation that this person is ministering in such an effective way that only the Holy Spirit could be achieving in him what is being ministered.

But I want to look at the examples where the poster says tongues is not involved. He first quotes the episode where Simon the sorceror. He says that these ones were baptised in the Name of Jesus and there were not properly baptised. There is nothing that I can see in the passage that even suggests that these ones were not Christian believers already. The poster is mistaken and is reading things into the passage that are not there, just to support his position. He is saying that Philip the Evangelist was not preaching the true gospel to the Samarians, which is a load of nonsense.

Also, there must have been some outward evidence that these people were filled with the Holy Spirit to make Simon want the same power.

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; and he took food and was strengthened. and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying,"He is the Son of God." (Acts 9:17-20) Please note, this is Paul's conversion. Even he did not speak in tongues.

His next quote is Paul's conversion where he was prayed for by Ananias. Luke does not say that Paul spoke in tongues at that point, but Paul himself says that he does speak in tongues from what he says in 1Corinthians14. Again the poster is making assumptions based on his own prejudice, and not from actual statements from Scripture. He is arguing from a basis of silence.

And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

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(Acts 16:29-34) Please do not suggest the apostles would baptize a non-believer.

I don't know why he includes the passage about the Philippian Jailor. He doesn't seem to be making any point about anything here. Of course the jailor was converted to Christ before he was baptised. Paul would have baptised him on the basis of his belief in Christ. This is Christianity 101. Only an arrant fool would not accept that.

Again, the incidents in which men speak in tongues after receiving the same baptism of the Holy Spirit all believers receive is not evidence of the Spirit for anyone but the skeptical Jews, either when their own believe, or when Gentiles believe.

Again, there is no actual evidence from Scripture about tongues being just evidence for skeptical Jews. There is some nonsense bandied about by the Cessationist school about the tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost being evidence for the skeptical Jews who lived there. I guess that this is where he gets this argument from. It is one thing to quote parrot fashion things said by mentors, and quote another to get evidence from Scripture to back any claims.

That is what your examples are. Tongues are not evidence of the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure they're evidence of anything.

Perhaps the poster does not speak in tongues himself, and is confused by the tripe that the Cessationist school is peddling.

I think that the whole post by the guy needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

ShammahBenJudah · Jan 19, 2008

If OT imagery has any weight to it, look at Saul's anointing...here's a link with a real short look at it
About The Prophet

I would invite you to come over there anyway Oscarr, your insight would be valued. Teacher's Corner: About The Prophet.

Mathetes the kerux · Jan 26, 2008

Oscarr said:
Here is a copy of a post by Mathetes the Kerux that I lifted from the Non Denom forum so I can give answers to it. I am not allowed to debate over there without some pleasant totally Christian person reporting me..

While I acknowledge that this is the traditional Pentecostal view, the Scriptural evidence for it is as thin as a wafer. There is the danger of reading into the New Testament things that are not actually there.

It would be good to provide actual quotes from the New Testament that clearly show that there actually is a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that this baptism is an event subsequent to conversion.

Making doctrinal statements without supporting evidence amounts to pure speculation.

Ok . . . so where would you like to start? Perhaps with the hermeneutical principle that if a proposition can be proven to be in the intent of an author that it can be taken from narrative and used as perscriptive doctrine?

Your turn ;0)

Jesusong · Jan 26, 2008

Mat,
In the quote that was pasted in post #1, are you quoting a reference work or are these your own words. If you are using a reference work, what is it?

Mathetes the kerux · Jan 26, 2008

Jesusong said:
Mat,
In the quote that was pasted in post #1, are you quoting a reference work or are these your own words. If you are using a reference work, what is it?

Themz beez me own.

BTW, sup brother . . . good to see you!

lilmissmontana · Jan 26, 2008

Oscarr, if you wouldn't mind, I'd be very pleased if you went to the Pentecostal forum and posted some thoughts there. Apparently we needed not one but three threads over there just to prove I'm not filled with the Holy Spirit because God has chosen not to give me the gift of tongues. A lot of people have worked really hard over in that forum to bring it to a loving, caring, forum that allows for everyone a sanctuary. Now this. I'm in a position of having to leave that forum and find a new home (once again) because I don't "qualify" as some one that has the Holy Spirit. I could stay and jeporadize the whole forum to become a big screaming arguement of whose right and whose wrong about this so someone can feel better at the expense of everyone like myself. Clearly the posts are a backlash of my posting here about this. My thoughts are not for myself as much as they are for the many new people posting in that forum. Many of them are new young Christians. This is going to be nothing but destructive to their walk. I'd just like someone else to post besides me who doesn't absolutely demand you speak in tongues to "qualify" having a filling of the Holy Spirit. I am just sick about this. Is this the way Christians are supposed to make other Christians feel. LESS THAN! If that is the view then I totally need to move on.

NorrinRadd · Jan 26, 2008

Wanna hear something "funny" (for lack of a better word)?

If it official policy of the Pentecostal forum that members must hold to official AG beliefs in regard to tongues as "initial evidence" and to Spirit-baptism as separate and subsequent relative to regeneration, then esteemed Pentecostal scholar and lifelong AG guy Gordon Fee could not post there.

Mathetes the kerux · Jan 26, 2008

lilmissmontana vbmenu_register("postmenu_42988595", true); [/COLOR] 4299182]Oscarr, if you wouldn't mind, I'd be very pleased if you went to the Pentecostal forum and posted some thoughts there. Apparently we needed not one but three threads over there just to prove I'm not filled with the Holy Spirit because God has chosen not to give me the gift of tongues. A lot of people have worked really hard over in that forum to bring it to a loving, caring, forum that allows for everyone a sanctuary. Now this. I'm in a position of having to leave that forum and find a new home (once again) because I don't "qualify" as some one that has the Holy Spirit. I could stay and jeporadize the whole forum to become a big screaming arguement of whose right and whose wrong about this so someone can feel better at the expense of everyone like myself. Clearly the posts are a backlash of my posting here about this. My thoughts are not for myself as much as they are for the many new people posting in that forum. Many of them are new young Christians. This is going to be nothing but destructive to their walk. I'd just like someone else to post besides me who doesn't absolutely demand you speak in tongues to "qualify" having a filling of the Holy Spirit. I am just sick about this. Is this the way Christians are supposed to make other Christians feel. LESS THAN! If that is the view then I totally need to move on.

My sister . . . you do indeed have the Spirit. Every regenrate person who has faith in Christ is filled with the Spirit.

But what is our standard? It is the Bible right? So we use the scripture to establish doctrine and practice (orthodoxy and orthopraxy).

Tongues may or may not be the evidence (I feel every Christian who seeks Spirit Baptism WILL speak in tongues) . . . but this is WITHOUT a doubt: The Baptism of the Spirit (which according to Luke is DIFFERENT from the filling of the Spirit in salvation) is a UNMISTAKABLE experience . . . it is NOT salvation . . . so when it does happen . . . EVERYONE including you will know that something has happened, something has changed, as something OBSERVABLE has occurred. THAT is the FACT of Acts. The only two real options to the evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit are tongues and prophecy . . . but tongues is the more probable being the common denominator.

Instead of feeling slighted, sister feel encouraged that God is granting you the opportunity to seek His face for His Spirit's outpouring.

I am sorry that others have made you feel less than . . . many abuse this doctrine to hold a line of division between the "haves and have nots" . . . instead of seeing the doctrine as a blessing and something to look forward to with anticipation and as a blessing of God to His people.

Mathetes the kerux · Jan 26, 2008

NorrinRadd said:
Wanna hear something "funny" (for lack of a better word)?

If it official policy of the Pentecostal forum that members must hold to official AG beliefs in regard to tongues as "initial evidence" and to Spirit-baptism as separate and subsequent relative to regeneration, then esteemed Pentecostal scholar and lifelong AG guy Gordon Fee could not post there.

Yep. But then he would be Pentecostal NOT theologically but culturally.

lilmissmontana · Jan 26, 2008

Mathetes the kerux, thank you for your very kind words. I know you didn't mean it this way but this is my problem with the subject of tongues. That one line about this is my opportunity (without the intention) still implies I am lacking something. Like I said, I know you did not mean it that way.

my question now would be: Did Jesus speak in tongues?

Mathetes the kerux · Jan 26, 2008

lilmissmontana said:
Mathetes the kerux, thank you for your very kind words. I know you didn't mean it this way but this is my problem with the subject of tongues. That one line about this is my opportunity (without the intention) still implies I am lacking something. Like I said, I know you did not mean it that way.

my question now would be: Did Jesus speak in tongues?

Why would it be offensive to say to someone that they lack something? We all do . . . we all will . . . continually.

As for salvation, no. We lack nothing. The Cross and the Crucified One are completely sufficient . . . but as to our lives? We are all works in progress lacking something somewhere in the process of being made into the image of Christ. Hence the need for a lifestyle of repentance. I lack in patience . . . should I be upset when my brother or sister comes and takes the opportunity to help me grow in this area? Not at all. I must see these as God's grace to me to grow me into what He desires me to be for His glory and purpose.

No Jesus did NOT speak in tongues. This is because His union with the Father is perfect and complete . . . our's is not. But when our's is . . . we will no longer need tongues (1 Cor 13:8ff).

I guess that probably raises the question as to WHAT exactly tongues is then huh?

lilmissmontana · Jan 26, 2008

Believe me! I'm well aware I lack in some things. I just don't happen to think this is one of them. I find it offensive because it is judgement on others parts to decide I'm lacking. I've spent most of my life seeking the Lord and growing in the Lord. I absolutely, one hundred percent, without a doubt do NOT believe all are meant to speak in tongues. And this comes through my journey with the Lord. I am not going to be bullied into thinking I have to speak in tongues to be fulfilled. Scripture just does not support that.

And as to what tongues is ... it's languages ... pure and simple.

What I don't understand is how someone can think it's o.k. to push and shove something down someones throat through judgement of what they think. My opinions are my opinions ... I just try not to use them as weapons to prove I have something someone else doesn't. This causes divisions and that in itself is against scripture.

My problem with all of this is not what others think ... it's that it has been pounded into the ground. And to what fruit. I know by the number and content of the pm's I've gotten today the answer to that is exactly how I feel. I'm very much not the only one who is offended by this ... I am one of the few, however, who is willing to voice their opinion ... and why ... because of the backlash from those that think it's their God-given calling to convert someone as myself.

My bigger concern is the Pentecostal forum. It is a sanctuary for many who feel they can post there without judgement. It was questioned if there are rules there. You know ... scripture will back this up. You can't govern ungovernable people. They will find a way. And you don't need to govern governable people. They will govern themselves. And that is exactly the way it's been. Until now. So the fruit of those threads being posted is hurt feelings, feelings of being judged, feelings of what's going to happen in that forum ... the list goes on. Sorry folks ... gotta look at the fruit and it smells rotten. The only thing I know to do is stay away from the forum because I'm a fighter and this isn't a fight that will produce good fruit.

So I just want to say I think it is more important to look at the agenda behind these threads and whose agenda they are REALLY serving and not the issue of tongues itself. We are to plant seeds. God and God only changes the heart. How many times do you plant the same seed before you let God do His work.

When the person who posted those over there posted them it would seem it was because he didn't get enough over here. That's the only reason I can think for taking something to a forum you RARELY frequent. The Pentecostal forum to this point has been a place of worship and edifying other members. All of a sudden with just these three threads there is confusion and angst. It's really not that hard to see that is not good fruit.

But ... what do I know ... I don't speak in tongues.

onelamb · Jan 26, 2008

If you get offended and leave-then so be it-but the Word will stand.

irenemcg · Jan 26, 2008

1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

The fact that Paul saw the importance of tongues, made me open to have them.
All born again Christians have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. A Spirit Baptism is meant to enable and empower us for service.
It's not about an us and them thing and some are better and have arrived. We are all on a journey, and we are being changed but we need to allow the Holy Spirit to have full sway with us.

1Co 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

Seek gifts to edify the church.

Spirit baptism is only the gateway to being empowered for service, we need to be willing vessels and keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit, and get into the Word of God too.

Baptism of the Spirit is not just about tongues it's about submission to the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it's not by accident that James says "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." Jas 3:8

It seems to be the hardest member in our bodies to give over to the Holy Spirit. And tongues comes with that initial moment of total submission.

lilmissmontana · Jan 26, 2008

onelamb ... I saw your message on the other forum ... all three of them ...yes, the word will stand ... and yes ... so be it.

I did say unless the Lord pointed me back there I would leave. Or until this dies down. Therein lies the problem. It never does. I am and will wait until I know what to do. If it's my time to leave, then it is. If it's not, then it's not. But I am not going to do this battle over there.

I'm also done on this subject here. As I said already, how many times can you have the same conversation. And I use the term conversation loosely. It feels more like a spiritual beating. I do know one thing for certain ... I am one of God's little ones and he will justify my position in His time. And that's how I can live in peace with this stupidity.

Yet ... no one ever answers the question where is the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" used in the bible. We're just supposed to take someones word for it that it is even a legitimate phrase.

My purpose in all this was to let others who don't speak in tongues know they are not alone and it is o.k. Not the condescending "it's o.k." from so many who do speak in tongues. But an o.k. from someone they don't feel beat up by. I've done all I can do. God bless ALL the Lord's children. And may he justfy those who are hurt by this soon.

onelamb · Jan 26, 2008

John replied to all of them, "I baptize you with water. But the one who is more powerful than I is coming. I am not worthy to untie his sandal straps. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

lilmissmontana · Jan 26, 2008

There you have it. In all this I'd forgotten about that verse. On the other hand it does not say the evidence of that is tongues. You made a real point to let me know I've not been baptised in the Holy Spirit because I don't speak in tongues. So I'm admitting I forgot about that scripture. But, it still doesn't mean I haven't been baptised in the Holy Spirit because I don't speak in tongues. So my question is answered and it's time to let this go.

onelamb · Jan 26, 2008

What happened to the disciples when they received the baptism in the Spirit in Acts 2:4?

What happened to the believers in Acts 19:6 when they received it?

How did the Jewish believers know that the Gentiles had received this blessing in Acts 10?

Jesus said that this baptism was "the promise of the Father" in Acts 1-who did Peter say this promise was for in Acts 2:39?

I'm sorry that you haven't been baptised in the Spirit but it is no call for getting angry and leaving. My goodness, I went round and round about this for nearly a year before Jesus baptised me in the Spirit and I was saved way before that.

In the Bible when one was baptised in the Spirit-they spoke in tongues-I just don't think it's changed that's all.

JimB · Jan 26, 2008

onelamb said:
John replied to all of them, "I baptize you with water. But the one who is more powerful than I is coming. I am not worthy to untie his sandal straps. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And we have all been baptized in/of/by/with the Holy Spirit and made to drink of one Spirit (1 Cor. 12.13). There is no subsequent anything when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside a believer and we become the property of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1.3)

as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue (2 Peter 1.3).

~Jim

" God did not die for man because of some value perceived in him. He loved us not because we are lovable, but because He is love." ~C.S. Lewis

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