The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (3)

Tavita said:

I want to, and have chosen Life.

But my question is, what were the punishments for breaking the Law? Did they receive punishment that was never ending, or even tormenting or torturous?

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That temporal punishment is past. At the GWT, you are playing by God's new set of rules. Time is over and He is cleaning house in His universe.

Floatingaxe said:

That temporal punishment is past. At the GWT, you are playing God's rules. Time is over and He is cleaning house in His universe.

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Yes, I know it's God's rules.. or Law.

Where does it say the Law changes if you are outside of Christ?

Nadiine said:

No it did not - preterism has very serious problems and there's Lots of websites going over all that.
It was NOT only to Jews - it's in Revelation as well.
Oh I forgot, Rev. should now be bannished -

(by the way, Theologian, Dr. RC Sproul ascribes to Preterism and he has a whole series on the Holiness of God which includes the condemnation of the Unsaved going to Gehenna eternally. So preterism doesn't get you out of the dilema either)
Preterism has nothing to do w/ Gehenna.

It also doesn't wipe out Matt. 25 where sheep & goat are separated & going to eternal life or death or the parable of wheat & tares or Matt. 7:21-23 & many others we've shared.

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ALL of scripture must align perfectly with other scripture. With this theological dispute that you and others claim, it doesn't, nor can, unless you change the meanings of words. Which they do. And the reasons talked about for Rev being not included in the canon was just the point we are having right now. Too many disputes, and too many interpretations. No one hardly understood it, so what was the point?

The simple fact of the matter is this. Jerusalem, being the capital city of Israel, and the most Holy site in Israel, with the most Holy Building, if it would have been destroyed at the time of John's writing, you don't think that 1 single line would have been written about it? Most of Revelations is a DIRECT warning, pertaining to Israel, and the tribulations they suffered. Not 1 line! DESTROYED, ALL the Jews there killed, and then the rest are banished, and not 1 word. This would have been MAJOR CNN BREAKING NEWS AT THE TIME. Here is a Apostle writing a letter to Jews and Christians in other churches, and not 1 word. Maybe they assumed EVERYONE already knew this. Highly unlikely, but you never know. This is why people can't get the dates right on the "rapture", or second coming, when He didn't even know when that would be, lol.

Adam's death curse was ALREADY Swallowed up and can't sting us any longer, as Jesus has Risen and defeated that curse of death, but we are waiting until the end, when we can see it destroyed AGAIN. Right? I am not waiting, for I know it has been done already. Happened 3 days after Jesus was laid to rest.

As far as the tares and the wheat parable goes, let us look at it.

"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away."
"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'

I'll get back to this one,,further study

Tkjjc said:

Since everyone IS reconciled with God in the end, there had to be some business taken care of FIRST. The Jews being the chosen people that they were, needed a ministry to put them on the right path, more intense than Moses had ever dreamed of doing, hence ALL those miracles. I didn't SEE them, have you? That doesn't mean I don't believe that they happened, but those people were to whom they were given. Really think they would have believed Jesus if what He did, didn't surpass that of Moses? For 3 1/2 years He ministered to them, talking about Laws and setting the records straight, and like the Israelites of old, few got it. But some did.

Paul on the other hand was brought to help reconcile those Gentiles on earth, to whom God is calling for His purposes, to Jesus, and the atoning work of the cross. Hence all the letters.

Problem is that there are some who cannot tell nor have the desire to see the differences in how the scriptures were written, and to whom they were written to. Even the letters are not all written to infant believers, as they are directed specifically to saints. Some were written to the churches, some to the elders, and some on a first person basis. Does this mean that they ALL apply now to YOU? Can they? I suppose, if the level of understanding was that of those men, maybe, but mine sure as heck isn't there. So I rightly divide that which pertains to me in the now, and that which pertained to them.

Nadine quotes Jesus saying to cut off hands and pluck out eyes, rather than to sin. Does she sin? Simple yet very important questions. Know I know SINCE Christ has died for those sins, and hers, there is no NEED NOW to cut off anything. We HAVE the Atoning work of the cross, and His precious blood of forgiveness. But did THEY know and understand this? He issued a direct warning to THOSE JEWS, the lost sheep, at that time, and hopefully they believed Him. To those who didn't, they were starved, cannibalized, wailing and gnashed teeth, until ALL OF THEM were dead,,,all the way to place He warned them of, right outside those gates, in Hell. It is ALL there to read, if you just would.

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Hi Tkjjc,

How is everyone reconciled with God? Tell me, how is the unbeliever reconciled with God?

shepsgirl said:

How about trusting that God oversaw the translation process?

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If that was indeed the case, there would be no confusion now would there? God is NOT the author of confusion, is He?

Tkjjc said:

If that was indeed the case, there would be no confusion now would there? God is NOT the author of confusion, is He?

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So God couldn't get His Word to us then? He was either too lazy, too weak or didn't care enough about us to keep His Word from having error; is that the god you trust to save all?

Hentenza said:

Hi Tkjjc,

How is everyone reconciled with God? Tell me, how is the unbeliever reconciled with God?

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Colossians 1:19-20.
19 For in Him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

Romans 5:18:
18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.


Romans 11:32:
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Is God not merciful to all? ALL of them? Or just some of them? Probably the biggest problem I have with a eternal tormenting instant punishment without judging doctrine, burning forever in a lake of burning fire, is the same one that kept me away from Christianity ALL those years. If God would be that cruel, and unjust, so as to burn alive for eternity, billions of His own creation, for just simply living out their lives, sinful or not, but without knowing or the asking for the saving work of Jesus, prior to dying, then it must be God is not really worth worshiping. It would mean that His Son left some part out of the equation. The job isn't done yet. We were not given the choice to leave Eden, and inherit this curse, right? What makes a person think that if Christ abolished this curse, we can not accept that simple fact? That is a lot of Adams that won't see paradise, for they were condemned from the beginning. They weren't called by Father, so they will perish without mercy, right? Pawns for the slaughter so to speak? Use at His own leisure? Evil people doing His will, so He can in turn burn them for eternity, like Pharaoh of old? Or Judas? Or when Jesus called Peter, Satan? How many should we be judging in this life? How many can we scare into heaven? How many can we terrify our God with? These are questions that just don't reconcile a unmerciful, unloving god. that isn't MY GOD, who sent His SON, for ALL of HIS CREATION. His will be done, on EARTH, as it IS IN HEAVEN.


So, yea. I might have some issues, but I am sure God will let me know, and put me on the right path. Yours might be right, but I highly doubt it, and if He tells me it is, then I will believe Him. I won't like it much, and might even CHOOSE at that point to walk away, but that will be my choice to make. I have too many family and friends, not counting the billions of others, that should have had the same opportunities that I have had with God, either now in this life, or in the one to come. Some died and never even knew him, or were caught up in man made doctrines. I know I was, and walked away from them for many years, but God NEVER walked away from ME. He called me back. He will never have to do that again. If I choose to walk away the next time, it will be from Him. As much as I love Him, and boy He knows this, I could not ever stand in heaven and receive a reward, like I accomplished anything outside of His Will ALONE, then watch as billions are burned alive. I will Pass on that!

Let me then HOPE that my belief is right as rain, and that what He directs at me as the Truth is True. ALL will be reconciled, just as His Words are reconciled with each other.

shepsgirl said:

So God couldn't get His Word to us then? He was either too lazy, too weak or didn't care enough about us to keep His Word from having error; is that the god you trust to save all?

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His Word is out for us to read, as well as numerous translations not counting the languages, so you happen to think that highly of man now? WOW! Read the Greek or Hebrew, though A LOT of Hebrew words have been lost throughout the generations, but they are close enough. If something doesn't jive together with other scripture, research it out, and find the Truth. It is there!

Tavita said:

Yes, I know it's God's rules.. or Law.

Where does it say the Law changes if you are outside of Christ?

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The Law is applied to those outside of Christ. Everyone outside of Christ is judged condemned by the Law. It doesn't change at all. God applies it as He has planned since the beginning. Death to all who are condemned. Life to all who are in Christ.

Floatingaxe said:

That temporal punishment is past. At the GWT, you are playing by God's new set of rules. Time is over and He is cleaning house in His universe.

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New rules? Where is that in scripture? And what punishment is there in the now or this "temporal"?

Tkjjc said:

New rules? Where is that in scripture? And what punishment is there in the now or this "temporal"?

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HUH?

The Law was for Israel and had a life span. Jesus Christ has come and fulfilled it. Those who so choose to reject the salvation so freely offered will have to bejudged by that same Law...outside of TIME, at the end of ALL THINGS. That is where God will apply it. It's ultimate purpose!

As far as the "new rules" terminology--it's just terminology. The GWT Judgment will be a whole new thing, but not that people haven't been forewarned.

Floatingaxe said:

The Law is applied to those outside of Christ. Everyone outside of Christ is judged condemned by the Law. It doesn't change at all. God applies it as He has planned since the beginning. Death to all who are condemned. Life to all who are in Christ.

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But through Adam ALL were condemned already to death by a curse. Christ was the One who brought LIFE to ALL, and BROKE that curse by becoming that curse.

Floatingaxe said:

HUH?

The Law was for Israel and had a life span. Jesus Christ has come and fulfilled it. Those who so choose to reject the salvation so freely offered will have to be judged by that same Law...outside of TIME, at the end of ALL THINGS. That is where God will apply it. It's ultimate purpose!

As far as the "new rules" terminology--it's just terminology. The GWT Judgment will be a whole new thing, but not that people haven't been forewarned.

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I didnt see it as "terminology", but almost like you knew something NEW! I didn't read about it unless I missed it.

That temporal punishment is past. At the GWT, you are playing by God's new set of rules. Time is over and He is cleaning house in His universe.

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How is the Gentile punished in this temporal? You said it was for Israel, and they were punished, but Jesus ministered to them in the grave. So they got a second chance? Interesting, one would think. But what of ALL those heathens out there in the past, present, or future? For shame, for sure. I sure hope they got or get the memo, somehow, someway.

And God is going to apply Law outside of time? At the end of all things? And then Judge based upon this Law? What Law? The Israelite Law? Or are there new Laws?

Tkjjc said:

How is the Gentile punished in this temporal? You said it was for Israel, and they were punished, but Jesus ministered to them in the grave. So they got a second chance? Interesting, one would think. But what of ALL those heathens out there in the past, present, or future? For shame, for sure. I sure hope they got or get the memo, somehow, someway.

And God is going to apply Law outside of time? At the end of all things? And then Judge based upon this Law? What Law? The Israelite Law? Or are there new Laws?

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The only people ministered to in the grave/Hades were the righteous who were looking for their Lamb/ Saviour. Once they received Him, they were led to the Father.

All the heathens of the past are not our concern. God has provided for them, whatever that is. It is a mystery to us. He was concerned only with Israel before Christ, so it is not for us to know.

Heathens of this age and the future? That is our responsibility under God and Jesus' mandate to tell them of salvation in Him. Those that never hear, God provides. He says that the Law is written on their hearts and they can see God in Creation. These will be judged for what they know. It will have already been determined at the Bema Seat Judgment, 1000 years earlier, before the GWT.

Yes, God will judge by His Law. Accept Christ, avoid Judgment. Reject Him, BE JUDGED and be found guilty. There will not be any righteous standing trial there.

Floatingaxe said:

The only people ministered to in the grave/Hades were the righteous who were looking for their Lamb/ Saviour. Once they received Him, they were led to the Father.

All the heathens of the past are not our concern. God has provided for them, whatever that is. It is a mystery to us. He was concerned only with Israel before Christ, so it is not for us to know.

Heathens of this age and the future? That is our responsibility under God and Jesus' mandate to tell them of salvation in Him. Those that never hear, God provides. He says that the Law is written on their hearts and they can see God in Creation. These will be judged for what they know. It will have already been determined at the Bema Seat Judgment, 1000 years earlier, before the GWT.

Yes, God will judge by His Law. Accept Christ, avoid Judgment. Reject Him, BE JUDGED and be found guilty. There will not be any righteous standing trial there.

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Tell me there FA, what do you think or feel the Spirit tells you when you read this verse? How does it strike you?

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I'll let you respond, and then I shall give my thoughts on this. But the first little question I would ask is, Did God Save ALL of the people out of the Land of Egypt?

Here is another one to chew on awhile. If it isn't His will, then who's is it? Ours?

"So it is not {the} will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Thy Will be DONE, on Earth as IT IS in Heaven?

Tkjjc said:

Tell me there FA, what do you think or feel the Spirit tells you when you read this verse? How does it strike you?

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I'll let you respond, and then I shall give my thoughts on this. But the first little question I would ask is, Did God Save ALL of the people out of the Land of Egypt?

Here is another one to chew on awhile. If it isn't His will, then who's is it? Ours?

"So it is not {the} will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Thy Will be DONE, on Earth as IT IS in Heaven?

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God saved His people Israel out of Egypt. The point you deny is the fact that God will save all of HIS OWN out of "Egypt". He doesn't save goats--only His sheep. He doesn't want any of them to perish, and they won't!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a universal invitation, a universal message, but it is not universally received.
Whosever will come and believe shall not perish.

Tkjjc said:

Tell me there FA, what do you think or feel the Spirit tells you when you read this verse? How does it strike you?

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I'll let you respond, and then I shall give my thoughts on this. But the first little question I would ask is, Did God Save ALL of the people out of the Land of Egypt?

Here is another one to chew on awhile. If it isn't His will, then who's is it? Ours?

"So it is not {the} will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Thy Will be DONE, on Earth as IT IS in Heaven?

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We've been over God's WILL repeatedly. That doesn't support Universalism.

ANSWER: PERMISSIVE WILL AND PERFECT WILL.

HIS PERMISSIVE WILL allows people their choices to disobey & do evil and the worst evil of all: rejection of Jesus Christ and refusal to repent of sin.

Do you even listen to our replies? NO ONE has answered me on this issue of God's will. SD made an attempt by saying scripture doesn't oppose itself.
THAT'S NOT AN ANSWER.

DOES GOD WILL THE MOTHER TO ABORT HER BABY?
DOES GOD WILL THE PEDOPHILE TO MOLEST A CHILD?
DOES GOD WILL ADULTS TO SELL CHILDREN INTO PROSTITUTION?
Does God WANT THEM TO DO AND CAUSE THEM TO DO THESE EVILS?

(and how does this align with His perfect Law and will of Loving neighbor as yourself - doing good to others?)

If God has only ONE will, Does God's will oppose itself?


http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTurretin/francisturretinwillofgod.htm

Boyce quotes Turretine:

(1.) The first distinction is between the decretive and preceptive will of God.

By the decretive will is meant that will of God by which he purposes or decrees, whatever shall come to pass, whether he will to accomplish it himself effectively, or causatively, or to permit it to occur through the unrestrained agency or will of his creatures. In either case, however, he has determined, purposed, or decreed, either to bring it to pass, or to cause, or to permit it to be brought to pass.

By the preceptive will is meant that which he has prescribed to be done by others. Such are the laws under which he places his creatures, or the duties which he enjoins upon them. It is the rule of duty. The decretive will must always be fulfilled;
the preceptive may be disobeyed, and therefore remain unfulfilled.

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Tkjjc said:

ALL of scripture must align perfectly with other scripture.

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Hallelujah, you agree with that!

This puts your other posts in a dilema tho - becuz in trying to make universalism fit, you ARE causing other scriptures to refute one another.

It isn't enough to take a verse here or there that you THINK means universal salvation, WHEN THE PREPONDERANCE OF SCRIPTURES REFUTES THAT OPENLY AND REPEATEDLY.

It means you are not interpreting it correctly. It means: go back to the drawing board & TRY AGAIN.
Your recent posts have just suggested that since the lake of fire is only mentioned "once" (which isn't true) it isn't reliable... how many times does something have to be repeated to be TRUE in the Bible?
That's ONE more time than your doctrine is taught -namely the process of releasing the -now repentant sinners- from Hell or Gehenna. & where they go since scripture says they will NOT ENTER. and Jesus shuts out those in Matt 7:21-23.
No exclusionary clauses of this bannishment being temporary either.

That's your solution?

We take ALL scripture into account Tk, just becuz one LOOKS like it may support Univ., DOESN'T MEAN IT DOES when the majority refutes it.
It means you need to study it more to come to the full truth. Not embrace it & then run to manipulate the rest of scriptures to suit your interpretation.

With this theological dispute that you and others claim, it doesn't, nor can, unless you change the meanings of words. Which they do. And the reasons talked about for Rev being not included in the canon was just the point we are having right now. Too many disputes, and too many interpretations. No one hardly understood it, so what was the point?

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Tk's solution: RIP OUT REVELATION becuz it doesn't coincide with my theology!
What remains is, we STILL have the rest of the NT that effectively refutes Universalism.

And since we've seen how you cause other simple scriptures to be misaligned & contradicted, I have little trust in your ability to teach this doctrine (or any others for that matter) at all.

You SAY scripture has to align, yet you are violating what you claim to believe in your rebuttals - including the removal of entire cannonized books when they don't coincide with your theology

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42787495&postcount=205

Tkjjc said:

Colossians 1:19-20.
19 For in Him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
20 and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross.

Romans 5:18:
18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.


Romans 11:32:
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Is God not merciful to all? ALL of them? Or just some of them? Probably the biggest problem I have with a eternal tormenting instant punishment without judging doctrine, burning forever in a lake of burning fire, is the same one that kept me away from Christianity ALL those years. If God would be that cruel, and unjust, so as to burn alive for eternity, billions of His own creation, for just simply living out their lives, sinful or not, but without knowing or the asking for the saving work of Jesus, prior to dying, then it must be God is not really worth worshiping. It would mean that His Son left some part out of the equation. The job isn't done yet. We were not given the choice to leave Eden, and inherit this curse, right? What makes a person think that if Christ abolished this curse, we can not accept that simple fact? That is a lot of Adams that won't see paradise, for they were condemned from the beginning. They weren't called by Father, so they will perish without mercy, right? Pawns for the slaughter so to speak? Use at His own leisure? Evil people doing His will, so He can in turn burn them for eternity, like Pharaoh of old? Or Judas? Or when Jesus called Peter, Satan? How many should we be judging in this life? How many can we scare into heaven? How many can we terrify our God with? These are questions that just don't reconcile a unmerciful, unloving god. that isn't MY GOD, who sent His SON, for ALL of HIS CREATION. His will be done, on EARTH, as it IS IN HEAVEN.


So, yea. I might have some issues, but I am sure God will let me know, and put me on the right path. Yours might be right, but I highly doubt it, and if He tells me it is, then I will believe Him. I won't like it much, and might even CHOOSE at that point to walk away, but that will be my choice to make. I have too many family and friends, not counting the billions of others, that should have had the same opportunities that I have had with God, either now in this life, or in the one to come. Some died and never even knew him, or were caught up in man made doctrines. I know I was, and walked away from them for many years, but God NEVER walked away from ME. He called me back. He will never have to do that again. If I choose to walk away the next time, it will be from Him. As much as I love Him, and boy He knows this, I could not ever stand in heaven and receive a reward, like I accomplished anything outside of His Will ALONE, then watch as billions are burned alive. I will Pass on that!

Let me then HOPE that my belief is right as rain, and that what He directs at me as the Truth is True. ALL will be reconciled, just as His Words are reconciled with each other.

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Brother,

The verses that you quote are out of context. Notice the qualifiers, if and may. Not everyone will be saved.
We are called to persevere. Why? Why would we have to persevere if at end all will be saved anyway?

Jude 1:17-23
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. 20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.



Notice verse 23. We are to snatch some from the fire to save them and to others show mercy mixed with fear. This is our call to persevere.


God will give each person according to what they have done. Again, why do we have to persevere or persist? If all will be saved then why bother.


Romans 2:6-11
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.



Here is another admonition to be prepared for when Jesus come. Why do we need to be prepared? What does this passage say about those that are not prepared?




1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.



God in his unending mercy sent his son to die for us so that we MAY be saved. The only condition for justification is making Jesus your Lord and Savior. Justification is by faith which by default also means that those who do not have faith are NOT justified and therefore will be judged according to their deeds. The NT does not support the doctrine of universalism unless you choose to ignore all of the admonitions and commands made of us.




John 3:16-21

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." (Highlight mine).

Tkjjc said:

Is God not merciful to all? ALL of them? Or just some of them? Probably the biggest problem I have with a eternal tormenting instant punishment without judging doctrine, burning forever in a lake of burning fire, is the same one that kept me away from Christianity ALL those years.

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Yet, another example of how the doctrine of everlasting suffering has led to the other false extreme of universalism. I wonder if 99 % of the time, universalists accepted this false doctrine because of this "suffering" belief so prevailent in the church. Perhaps the doctrine of everlasting suffering is just as bad and universalism a reflection off of it.