Man's Responsibilty

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Ioustinos

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Since the topic of Reformed theology is popular as of now ;) I would like to ask the question:


According to the Doctrine of Election and Predestination, where does man's responsibility come into play? If God has predestined some for hell, then how is a man responsible for where he lives in eternity? Is this just of God to condemn one to eternal judgment without offering a way of mediation for that ones sin?

Even as early as Job (Job 9:33), man realizes a need for a mediator between himself and God; how could God be just and not offer everyman the chance to have this mediator?

I ask these questions in all seriousness and concern, and thank you all for your future posts.
 

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Originally posted by Jesaiah
According to the Doctrine of Election and Predestination, where does man's responsibility come into play? If God has predestined some for hell, then how is a man responsible for where he lives in eternity? Is this just of God to condemn one to eternal judgment without offering a way of mediation for that ones sin?

We talked about this very thing in church last night and I'd like to offer the insight that I gained from my Bible study.  First off, we must understand that God is under no obligation to save mankind.  Mankind is His creation to do with as He will:

Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

We must recognize that God does things for only righteous reasons.&nbsp; I think the biggest hinderance in our appreciation of God comes about when we esteem ourselves much higher than we ought.&nbsp; We were "wonderfully and fearfully made" (Ps 139:14).&nbsp; We are, however, still just a created being.&nbsp; Who are we to question God on what He does with His creation?&nbsp; If you had your own business and someone tried to tell you how to run it you might tell them it wasn't their place.&nbsp; Well, that's what mainstream Christianity says.&nbsp; It says we can tell God how to run His own business (the business thing is a metaphorical reference by the way).

We must also understand that it is only by the grace of God that we are able to resist when we do.&nbsp; God is not under any obligation to extend that grace to all people, nor is He obligated to extend it to&nbsp;Christians at all times.&nbsp; We make the presumption that He is though.&nbsp; If God owed us grace then it wouldn't be grace, it would be our wages.

Man is responsible for the choices he makes because he makes those choices.&nbsp; If two men would naturally make the choice to disobey God and God gives&nbsp;one the grace to resist and obey is the one who did not receive the grace responsible for his sin?&nbsp; Of course.&nbsp; Is God at fault for not giving him the grace he didn't deserve in the first place?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; Is God under any obligation to give sinners grace?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; The most common rebuttal to this is that it's not fair that He doesn't give everyone grace.&nbsp; That's true.&nbsp; Technically, the fact that He gives some grace is unfair because they don't deserve it either.&nbsp; What would be fair?&nbsp; I say for all men to be condemned.&nbsp; It's only by God's sovereign grace that some aren't.&nbsp; The ones that are condemned have definitely earned it.

Even as early as Job (Job 9:33), man realizes a need for a mediator between himself and God; how could God be just and not offer everyman the chance to have this mediator?

I think the important thing here is to acknowledge what would be just.&nbsp; God said, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23).&nbsp; The just thing would be for all men to die condemned&nbsp;due to their sinfulness.&nbsp; You see, justice&nbsp;had to be served.&nbsp; And it was.&nbsp; The only way God could show mercy to us is for someone to die for the sins that were committed.&nbsp; God, because He is just, could not just say, "Well, We'll go ahead and let that slide."&nbsp; But, there was a stipulation to that.&nbsp; One who was innocent of sin had to die because one who had sinned would not be a worthy propitiation to God's wrath against mankind.&nbsp; It would do you no good for me to die for your sins.&nbsp; I could only pay for one of my own, much less all of mine, yours and the whole world's.&nbsp; So, Jesus had to live a perfect life and then die for the sins of His enemy for them to be reconciled to God.&nbsp; Only after Jesus had done His perfect work could God then show mercy.

I hope this helps.

God bless,

Don
 
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eldermike

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Thanks for the question, a very good question indeed.

First, it would be easy to make the case that this is not reformed Theology but I will skp that and just try and answer your question.

Our responsibility is our responce to the call of God on our hearts.
We also have the responsibility of spreading the good news.
This is a huge responsibility that calls for a "sold out" attitude, a clean Heart, and a willing body. This is the living sacrifice that is our reasonable service.

Blessings
 
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Ioustinos

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Hi Reformationist :wave:

The just thing would be for all men to die condemned due to their sinfulness. You see, justice had to be served.

How is it that sin was passed to all men through the sins of one, yet salvation only comes for some? If man inherits the nature to sin and thus acts upon that nature, wouldn't it be just to give all men the opportunity to receive a righteous nature through Jesus Christ?


Is God under any obligation to give sinners grace? Of course not. The most common rebuttal to this is that it's not fair that He doesn't give everyone grace. That's true. Technically, the fact that He gives some grace is unfair because they don't deserve it either. What would be fair? I say for all men to be condemned. It's only by God's sovereign grace that some aren't. The ones that are condemned have definitely earned it.

Is it "fair" to only offer grace to some and not all? Not just that some receive it but that all have the option to receive it?

How has one earned condemnation if it was his only option?


Again thank you for your responses :)
 
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Ioustinos

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Hi Eldermike :wave:

Our responsibility is our responce to the call of God on our hearts.

Are you saying that man has a choice as to accept or refuse this Grace? I thought, and correct me if I am in error, that the elect were brought to irresistable grace? That is they could not refuse the call of the Father. :scratch:

If the above is true, then I still must ask where does man's responsibility come in to play? For, what I understand, the elect have no option but to receive the grace of salvation brought to them by God.


Thank you for your response. :)
 
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eldermike

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I believe the Bible supports that we can resist by our free will or by Trickery.
you will find this is the matter Paul is addressing in Galations 1. You can also support that those that have recieved the Holy Spirit can also be pulled back into slavery but this is not a lose of salvation.
Preordained Election and irresistable grace are not one and the same thing.
You can also support irrestiable grace Biblically but I believe that is a selective thing such as with Pauls conversion.

It is impossible to put God in a box. The important thing about "election" is that it allows full and proper credit for salvation and that is Jesus death on a cross. It also allows that because of Adams sin we were all born dead and that I do not dead by my sin but only by rejecting the cross as the way to salvation.

We may not have every eye dotted, ever "T" crossed but I do know that the idea that mans works are necessary for salvation has lead us away from humility, made us judgmental, driven many from the church and by our fruits we are known.

Blessings
 
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Originally posted by Jesaiah
How is it that sin was passed to all men through the sins of one, yet salvation only comes for some?

It has to do with who each (Adam &amp; Christ) represent.&nbsp; Adam represented all of mankind and therefore his sin was passed to those he represented.&nbsp; Christ is not representative of all mankind.&nbsp; He only represents those that the Father draws to Him.&nbsp; Therefore, only those whom He represents are credited with His perfect work.

If man inherits the nature to sin and thus acts upon that nature, wouldn't it be just to give all men the opportunity to receive a righteous nature through Jesus Christ?

Well, I'll tell ya.&nbsp; I'm not God.&nbsp; So,&nbsp;if you're asking me would it be great if all men were saved I would obviously say yes.&nbsp; However, that's not what He did.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't completely understand why but then&nbsp;again,&nbsp;He didn't consult me before He enacted creation either. ;) &nbsp;I will concede that mankind are victims in the sense that they were born separated from God due to the sins of someone else.&nbsp; But, I do know it was all according to God's plan so it was a righteous decision.

Is it "fair" to only offer grace to some and not all?

No, as I said, it would be "fair" to offer grace to none.&nbsp; The fact that He offers grace to some that He is under no obligation to do so shows His great love and mercy.

Not just that some receive it but that all have the option to receive it?

Believe me, if we had the "option" to receive it then we&nbsp;would lose it and be subject to [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ation upon our very first sin after getting it.&nbsp; If we could&nbsp;gain it as a result of a choice we could lose it just as easily.&nbsp; And, since our salvation is held for us in Heaven by God it's not something&nbsp;even we can manipulate.&nbsp;

How has one earned condemnation if it was his only option?

Here's where it becomes&nbsp;quite a bit more difficult to understand.&nbsp; Basically, man would make the choice against God anyway.&nbsp; He is fallen.&nbsp; The fact&nbsp;that God gives the grace to some to overcome that nature is what makes it grace.

God bless
 
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Ioustinos

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Reformationist,

So Calvinism hinges on the definition of Grace and its context within humanity? Would I be correct in saying that?


As well, does man have the option of rejecting this calling by God?


As far as it goes with man being born with sin nature and that not all receive the gift of grace, do we just need to sit down with God and let him explain it to us as He did with Job? ;)
 
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Originally posted by Jesaiah
So Calvinism hinges on the definition of Grace and its context within humanity? Would I be correct in saying that?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean but it&nbsp;sounds about right as long as you understand&nbsp;it's relation to the depravity of mankind after the Fall.&nbsp;

As well, does man have the option of rejecting this calling by God?

Which call?&nbsp; The call to salvation?&nbsp;


As far as it goes with man being born with sin nature and that not all receive the gift of grace, do we just need to sit down with God and let him explain it to us as He did with Job? ;)

I think He did that with His Word.&nbsp; I would say that it would be a good idea to read some books by noted reformed theologians like Spurgeon, C.S. Lewis, A.W. Pink, Knox, Calvin, and Luther and then test it against the Word.

God bless
 
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Ioustinos

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Reformationist,

I think He did that with His Word.


That is what I was hinting at, but too often we do not head His Word.


Question: How long did it take for you to let go of the fact that you are man and cannot fully comprehend the wisdom and ways of God?
 
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Originally posted by Jesaiah
Question: How long did it take for you to let go of the fact that you are man and cannot fully comprehend the wisdom and ways of God?

Not sure what you mean.&nbsp; I still know that I am man and cannot fully comprehend the wisdom and ways of God.

God bless
 
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Ioustinos

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Originally posted by Reformationist
Not sure what you mean.&nbsp; I still know that I am man and cannot fully comprehend the wisdom and ways of God.

God bless


As mankind, we naturally want to know and understand everything. But when it comes to issues like this, many times our minds cannot begin to fathom the things and ways of God.

So my question was how long did it take (concerning this doctrine) that we may never be able to understand it completely until we reach heaven?



Jesaiah
 
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Ben johnson

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Our responsibility is our response to the call of God on our hearts.
Are you saying that man has a choice as to accept or refuse this Grace? I thought, and correct me if I am in error, that the elect were brought to irresistable grace? That is they could not refuse the call of the Father.
My thoughts exacty. If we are called to salvation irresistibly, where is our responsibility? If it is GOD who elects us, why need we worry about "perseverence", or "diligence", or "endurance", or "growth", or "walking in Him or in the Spirit", or "maturity", or any of it? Does not, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion" (Phlp1:6), does that not place our entire spirituality squarely on God's shoulders? We have nothing to worry about!

...do we?
Does the Bible EVER say that God predestined those that go to hell?
The PE response to this has always seemed to me to be a "dodge". Man is said to be condemned to Hell by his own decadence/sinfulness/depravity. Yet he has no choice in the matter---it is how he was born, inheritted from Adam. Every last Human who ever exists will be condemned to Hell---if not for the forceful intervention of God. By His very interfering in saving/electing SOME, HE has condemned the REST to Hell The "dodge", is the fence-straddling in saying that "it is MAN'S FAULT"---PE leaves no other option but to assign the fault entirely to God...

"For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality (God is no respecter of persons)". Col3:25 If we are elect, where is the impartiality???
I believe the Bible supports that we can resist by our free will or by Trickery.
you will find this is the matter Paul is addressing in Galations 1.
I'm confused. If one is elect, then one is saved---by God's forceful interference. You and I agree that "we can resist by free will or by trickery" (deception)---but I'm struggling to understand how you work that out in your mind. Are those who are TRICKED or DECEIVED, are they really never elect in the FIRST PLACE? Does God, after a person believes himself to be elect, but then falls, does God tilt His head, point His finger, smile and say, "Juuusssttt kiiiiiidddddiiiinnnnngggg!!!" ?
You can also support that those that have recieved the Holy Spirit can also be pulled back into slavery but this is not a lose of salvation.
Help me to understand how one "pulled back into slavery", is still saved? What then, is salvation? Did not Paul mean what he said in Gal5:4? Doesn't this include the concept of "backslidden"? If one is backslidden, (which means they return to sinning continuously), are they still saved? Did Paul not really mean what he said in 1Cor6:9-11, or Gal5:19-20?

Did Paul mean it?
 
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Originally posted by Jesaiah
As mankind, we naturally want to know and understand everything. But when it comes to issues like this, many times our minds cannot begin to fathom the things and ways of God.

So my question was how long did it take (concerning this doctrine) that we may never be able to understand it completely until we reach heaven?



Jesaiah

Good point Jesaiah.&nbsp; I think I still regularly forget, thanks to my pride, that I cannot fully understand God's Word.&nbsp; It is often the reason that I make rather persumptuous statements and come off as a know-it-all.&nbsp; It's definitely something I need to work on.&nbsp; It is comforting knowing that God is working on that with me. :)

God bless
 
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