The Trinity: Truth or Fruad

Seeker is right, this is the wrong forum for this, plus you have to look for people learned with both the Tanakh and the Bible, I don't think many people in this part of the forum know the Tanakh that well.

Tanakh said:

The concept of G-d dying for us makes no sence as our sins are ours and ours alone. The trinity makes no sence as G-d being all powerful does not need to die for anyone as the image of people killing G-d in human form seems to me to show G-d as week or that he allows his creation to inflict pain on him.

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This is Him showing His love for us. I was just thinking about this earlier. An all powerful being coming down to live and die among us sinners is something to behold and just be thankful for. Just imagining Creator coming down to show mercy upon His creation in such a way is unfathomnable. Your right. It doesnt make sense, but i know why He did it. It is because He is Love. Would you give up something so precious to save someone you love dearly so that he\she may remain alive. Well God is that kind of being to send His only Son into the world to demonstrate His Love and Compassion through His death and beyond.

There are three main arguments for God's existence:

The cosmological argument (first cause), teleological argument (the Logos, the basic principle of existance), and ontological argument (the infinite known to us finite folks). Some people may say "well, what about the argument from morality?" That falls under the teleological argument, and most other arguements fall under these three. Now, are the three different arguments for God refering to three different Gods? No, they're refering to the same Deity.

Oddly enough, these three roles seem to match the members of the Trinity: God the Father is usually associated with creation, Jesus is refered to as the Logos (particularly in the Gospel of John), and the Holy Spirit is how God makes Himself present to infinitesimal beings like us. Hmm... Could it be that the Trinity is simply summing up the three different arguments or roles of God in a neat package?

And why else would a monotheistic God refered to as Elohim? Before Israel came about, that refered to a panthenon, not a single deity.

Tanakh said:

The trinity is not Monotheistic because it means G-d can become human to die for our sins.

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God is omnipotent, humans are created in God's image.

Tanakh said:

The concept of G-d dying for us makes no sence as our sins are ours and ours alone.

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However, there is no way we could possibly make up or atone for our sins, or even pay God back for giving us existence in the first place. It would take God's intervention to pay off this debt, but as you said: our sin is our own.

Let's say it is possible for a human being to go through thier entire life without sinning at least once. What would be the chances of that? Once out of the entire human race, maybe? However, that would kind of out do God by not needing God's help at all to lead a perfect life and defining God as "that which nothing greater can be conceived" anyone that outdoes 'god' actually was God all along.

Wikipedia's article on Saint Anselm of Canterbury also puts it nicely:

"All the actions of men are due to the furtherance of God's glory; if, then, there be sin, i.e. if God's honour be wounded, man of himself can give no satisfaction. But the justice of God demands satisfaction; and as an insult to infinite honour is in itself infinite, the satisfaction must be infinite, i.e. it must outweigh all that is not God. Such a penalty can only be paid by God himself, and, as a penalty for man, must be paid under the form of man. Satisfaction is only possible through the God-man. Now this God-man, as sinless, is exempt from the punishment of sin; His passion is therefore voluntary, not given as due. The merit of it is therefore infinite; God's justice is thus appeased, and His mercy may extend to man."

Basically, any crime commited against an infinite good is an infinite crime in nature. Only God can wipe out such a crime, but since the crime is our own, a man has to atone for the crime. The solution? God becomes man.

However, this is dealing with the incarnation, not the Trinity.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Now, God says Let us make man in our image. Wait a minute, who is God talking to? He is obviously not talking to his angels as they are lesser than Him. He is not talking to himself. God is talking to his Son, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. In other words, the Trinity. The countless symbols and prophecies that all point to Jesus cannot simply be ignored.

Mankin said:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Now, God says Let us make man in our image. Wait a minute, who is God talking to? He is obviously not talking to his angels as they are lesser than Him. He is not talking to himself. God is talking to his Son, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. In other words, the Trinity. The countless symbols and prophecies that all point to Jesus cannot simply be ignored.

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I'm not going to jump into this debate here, but I'd like to point out the possibility that God is using the royal plural and would, in fact, be speaking for the angels.

Abbadon said:

Wikipedia's article on Saint Anselm of Canterbury also puts it nicely:

"All the actions of men are due to the furtherance of God's glory; if, then, there be sin, i.e. if God's honour be wounded, man of himself can give no satisfaction. But the justice of God demands satisfaction; and as an insult to infinite honour is in itself infinite, the satisfaction must be infinite, i.e. it must outweigh all that is not God. Such a penalty can only be paid by God himself, and, as a penalty for man, must be paid under the form of man. Satisfaction is only possible through the God-man. Now this God-man, as sinless, is exempt from the punishment of sin; His passion is therefore voluntary, not given as due. The merit of it is therefore infinite; God's justice is thus appeased, and His mercy may extend to man."

Basically, any crime commited against an infinite good is an infinite crime in nature. Only God can wipe out such a crime, but since the crime is our own, a man has to atone for the crime. The solution? God becomes man.

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This is a perfect example of grace

Tanakh said:

As I stated in post 12 the Trinity is in conflict with Jewish tradition because it clearly states that G-d cannot feel physical pain and that nothing physical can effect Him thus the notion that the messiah will be G-d incarnate on earth in human form is false.

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So, why are you debating this if you're so sure? Are you trying to convince Christians that Jesus wasn't the Messiah? What exactly are your intentions?

Tanakh said:

Pure Monotheism states that no physical likeness can be applied to G-d and when He says He made us in His image that does not mean a physical one but a spiritual image so the messiah will not be G-d as He states clearly that He is outside our form and thus our understanding.

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So you are saying God is not omnipotent. This is rather illogical, God in his pure form is spirit, you are saying God cannot come into human form? This would be a sin, saying God cannot do something.

What do you think the blood on the door on Passover represented? It represented the blood of Jesus. Personally, I don't think you can convince Christians to give up their faith and become Jews, because the Ten Commandments in themselves are the law of condenmation. Under their standard, no one will be in heaven. That is why Jesus had to die. The passover lamb was slaughtered as a sin offering just as Jesus died as a sin offering. Consider these words by Jesus, "You religious leaders look to the Scriptures for you think it will give you salvation, but the Scriptures point to me."

No where in the Bible does it say that God made angels in his own image, he made humans in our image. He is talking to the Trinity. The Spirit of Lord as refered to in the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, it would have just said the Lord.

Then why, may I ask, are you posting this in the first place? The Trinity is a belief in mainline Christianity.

I mean no offense, but this seems like an underhanded attempt to convince us that Christianity is wrong. I may be wrong though.

Well that is hard to do considering how much evidence Christians have for the Torah pointing to Jesus. So are you offended that Christians use the Torah to prove Jesus is the Messiah? The Torah is part of our religion as much as it is part of yours.