Sodom, Rome, New York?

Floatingaxe said:

If "all the men" were clamoring for sex with the two strangers, it is understood that they were homosexual. You are the one who is twisting the Word.

Sodomy is a word used to describe male homosexual sex. That is what it means. You look it up in the dictionary. That was my point..the word etymology is thus:

sodomy

c.1297, from O.Fr. sodomie, from L.L. peccatum Sodomiticum "anal sex," lit. "sin of Sodom," from L. Sodoma, ult. from Heb. s'dom "Sodom," morally corrupt city in ancient Palestine, said to have been destroyed, with neighboring Gomorrah, by fire from heaven (Gen. xviii-xix). Sodomize coined 1868. In Du. slang, besodemieteren means "to deceive," and evidently is built from the traditional notion of "corruption" in Sodom.

Today, the word is defined thus:

1 : copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal
2 : noncoital and especially anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex —


and in law:

the crime of oral or anal sexual contact or penetration between persons or of sexual intercourse between a person and an animal; especially : the crime of forcing another person to perform oral or anal sex —sod·om·ize

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No it's understood they wanted to overpower two men. A whole town would not just want to have sex with two men for no apparent reason. No one is that ridiculous. It's about power. Anyone will tell you rape is about power. I'd rather not go into why I'm so persistant on that. Also, you got sodomy from a regular dictionary. Big whoop. Especially since I tried to use the dictionary term for justice and was told "It doesn't apply since God's definition doesn't match mans!".

In BibleGateway, sodomy is a term matched with these verses. ALL OF THEM are about temple prostitution, particularly male prostitution. None of them have anything to say about homosexuality:
Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24; 1 Kings 15:12; 1 Kings 22:46; 2 Kings 23:7.

TheFathersDaughter said:

No it's understood they wanted to overpower two men. A whole town would not just want to have sex with two men for no apparent reason. No one is that ridiculous. It's about power. Anyone will tell you rape is about power. I'd rather not go into why I'm so persistant on that. Also, you got sodomy from a regular dictionary. Big whoop. Especially since I tried to use the dictionary term for justice and was told "It doesn't apply since God's definition doesn't match mans!".

In BibleGateway, sodomy is a term matched with these verses. ALL OF THEM are about temple prostitution, particularly male prostitution. None of them have anything to say about homosexuality:
Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24; 1 Kings 15:12; 1 Kings 22:46; 2 Kings 23:7.

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Why do you want to try to whitewash the fact that these MEN SAID: WE WANT THESE MEN TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM!????

Do you only read what you want to read? Is it merely because you share a homosexual tendency yourself, which you have admitted to...?


Sure, it's about power, but these perverted people didn't have any sense! They were deluded, deceived, perverted, and stupid. Their lack of love and hospitality and lust for everything unholy, got them wiped off the face of the earth--so completely that nothing has ever been discovered of their bodily remains.

Floatingaxe said:

Why do you want to try to whitewash the fact that these MEN SAID: WE WANT THESE MEN TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM!????

Do you only read what you want to read? Is it merely because you share a homosexual tendency yourself, which you have admitted to...?


Sure, it's about power, but these perverted people didn't have any sense! They were deluded, deceived, perverted, and stupid. Their lack of love and hospitality and lust for everything unholy, got them wiped off the face of the earth--so completely that nothing has ever been discovered of their bodily remains.

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So this has anything to do with homosexuality? You're trying to say all homosexuals care about is sex? YOU JUST ADMIT IT WAS A ABOUT POWER yet you continue to say they were homosexual. Their sexuality matters a hill of beans. You might as well try to say every parent who molests their child are pedophiles. Of course not. They want power over their children. There is no sexual desire. Just selfish pride.

And frankly, especially since you've even ADMIT that homosexuality was not even the motive, I'm tired of you reminding all of us "Sodom was wiped off the face of the earth!" WE. KNOW. ALREADY. Stop trying to remind us to make us feel guilty about being or agreeing with homosexuality because that is the only reason you could possibly feel the need to remind us constantly.

Floatingaxe said:

Why do you want to try to whitewash the fact that these MEN SAID: WE WANT THESE MEN TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM!????

Do you only read what you want to read? Is it merely because you share a homosexual tendency yourself, which you have admitted to...?


Sure, it's about power, but these perverted people didn't have any sense! They were deluded, deceived, perverted, and stupid. Their lack of love and hospitality and lust for everything unholy, got them wiped off the face of the earth--so completely that nothing has ever been discovered of their bodily remains.

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Rape, especially gang-rape has nothing to with sexual urges. Any lust involved is a lust for violence.

If gang-rape were about sexual urges, why is it that so many times when a gay man is beat up by a straight mob, they gang-rape him?

Read 1 Chronicles 19. There was no lust involved there. Just an ordr from the king to gang-rape David's ambassadors

Why do twist God's Word to justify your sin?

TheFathersDaughter said:

So this has anything to do with homosexuality? You're trying to say all homosexuals care about is sex? YOU JUST ADMIT IT WAS A ABOUT POWER yet you continue to say they were homosexual. Their sexuality matters a hill of beans. You might as well try to say every parent who molests their child are pedophiles. Of course not. They want power over their children. There is no sexual desire. Just selfish pride.

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They WERE homosexuals--the lot of them! It is significant to show us how far they had gone into depravity. That is why it matters to God to have that as a strong part of the historical record of the event!

(Every pedophile wants power over children. They also have a sexual desire..it is perverted. Are you saying that not every parent who molests his child isn't a pedophile? Of course he is.)

And frankly, especially since you've even ADMIT that homosexuality was not even the motive, I'm tired of you reminding all of us "Sodom was wiped off the face of the earth!" WE. KNOW. ALREADY. Stop trying to remind us to make us feel guilty about being or agreeing with homosexuality because that is the only reason you could possibly feel the need to remind us constantly.

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Guilty? I don't do that--the Holy Spirit does that. Listen to Him. It's serious business.

OllieFranz said:

Rape, especially gang-rape has nothing to with sexual urges. Any lust involved is a lust for violence.

If gang-rape were about sexual urges, why is it that so many times when a gay man is beat up by a straight mob, they gang-rape him?

Read 1 Chronicles 19. There was no lust involved there. Just an ordr from the king to gang-rape David's ambassadors

Why do twist God's Word to justify your sin?

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What sin am I trying to justify? I am not doing the twisting!

Try reading the account fior yourself. They didn't ask for the men in order to beat them to a pulp! They wanted to rape them! Yes, it was for power, but it was a deep perversion these people had. Perversion mixes things up...I am sure you are aware of that fact.

Regarding the Ammonites story, you have no proof that the humiliation of David's men wasn't exactly as stated. Reading into the account to suit your agenda is very, very wrong!

Don't attack me. Read it for yourself. Let God's Word educate you...not popular opinion.

Floatingaxe said:

They WERE homosexuals--the lot of them! It is significant to show us how far they had gone into depravity. That is why it matters to God to have that as a strong part of the historical record of the event!

(Every pedophile wants power over children. They also have a sexual desire..it is perverted. Are you saying that not every parent who molests his child isn't a pedophile? Of course he is.)



Guilty? I don't do that--the Holy Spirit does that. Listen to Him. It's serious business.

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Floaty, you haven't given me any proof that anyone in Sodom was gay. You gave me the "all the men went" which basically doesn't prove anything. I'm going to guess you've never been raped before. You're quite a lucky person. There is a one, in a million chance, that you're being raped because that person just felt like it. But most likely, sexuality, everything is dropped. If those guys were driven by ANY sort of sexual desire, it was masochism. Pedophilism, as strange as it is, is not about power. A true pedophile, is sexually attracted to children. I've read these stories. In child molestation, it's generally pedophilia if it's a stranger that offered them candy. But with parents, friends, and even sometimes those strangers, it is power. Always.

Yep, I know. That's half the reason why I know homosexuality isn't a sin. Because I ain't feeling none of that guilt.

TheFathersDaughter said:

Floaty, you haven't given me any proof that anyone in Sodom was gay. You gave me the "all the men went" which basically doesn't prove anything. I'm going to guess you've never been raped before. You're quite a lucky person. There is a one, in a million chance, that you're being raped because that person just felt like it. But most likely, sexuality, everything is dropped. If those guys were driven by ANY sort of sexual desire, it was masochism. Pedophilism, as strange as it is, is not about power. A true pedophile, is sexually attracted to children. I've read these stories. In child molestation, it's generally pedophilia if it's a stranger that offered them candy. But with parents, friends, and even sometimes those strangers, it is power. Always.

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Look--read the bible. As the daughter of a pastoral counselor whose main bulk of clients were women who had suffered childhood sexual abuse, I know what you are saying. I don't deny the power element of a sexual attack.

It is God who says these man of the city were homosexuals. Not I. Read it and believe it.

You can't argue with God.

People don't feel guilt for a number of reasons, the most common being the fact that their hearts are hardened.

It doesn't mean that homosexuality isn't a sin. It means you refuse to accept the fact. God calls such people, "stiff-necked".

Floatingaxe said:

Look--read the bible. As the daughter of a pastoral counselor whose main bulk of clients were women who had suffered childhood sexual abuse, I know what you are saying. I don't deny the power element of a sexual attack.

It is God who says these man of the city were homosexuals. Not I. Read it and believe it.

You can't argue with God.

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You've yet to provide me with anything that says they were overpowered by homosexual lust. You've only told me they were men. Big whoop.

TheFathersDaughter said:

You've yet to provide me with anything that says they were overpowered by homosexual lust. You've only told me they were men. Big whoop.

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Never mind what I tell you! Read the account for yourself, then get bakc to us. why so you refuse such an easy task? I even posted it gere, and you still refuse to see!

You go on and on and on...saying nothing that agrees with Scripture, the authority in the matter.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Floatingaxe said:

What sin am I trying to justify? I am not doing the twisting!

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Do you deny that on numerous occassions you claimed that Matthew 7:5 gave you the authority to verbally abuse the people on this forum?

In spite of the fact that in order to claim that you have to leave out the first phrase, and ignore the fact that the four verses leading into that statement?
[bible]Matthew 7:1-5[/bible]
and that in order to do so you also ignore James 4:11-12
[bible]James 4:11-12[/bible]

That is the true twisting of God's word.
[bible]Deuteronomy 4:1-2[/bible]

Try reading the account fior yourself. They didn't ask for the men in order to beat them to a pulp! They wanted to rape them! Yes, it was for power, but it was a deep perversion these people had.

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ויקראו אל־לוט ויאמרו לו איה האנשים אשר־באו אליך הלילה הוציאם אלינו ונדעה אתם׃

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The Hebrew says that they want to "know" Lot's visitors. The word "yadá" (ירצ) can take on a lot of different meanings. The most logical, based on what they are saying, is that the wanted to interrogate the strangers, who might possibly be spies. Lot's reaction shows that their intentions were stronger than that.

Because of the parallel with Judges 19 and 1 Chronicles 19, we know that political torture included gang-rape. But, as I already stated, gang-rape has nothing to do with exual urges. It is all about anger, violence and humiliation.

So the Genesis 19 says nothing about sexual urges, gay or straight.

Perversion mixes things up...I am sure you are aware of that fact.

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If I were a more suspiscious person, I would suspect that you are accusing me of something. But since I don't twist God's Word into a perversion of His Will, I know that you can't be.

Regarding the Ammonites story, you have no proof that the humiliation of David's men wasn't exactly as stated. Reading into the account to suit your agenda is very, very wrong!

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Yes, it was exactly as stated. Their beards were plucked out to make them look more like women. Their garments were split up the back to expose their buttocks.

They were humiliated because they had been abused --used like women -- and could not face their friends and family. They were rape victims.

The only thing I "read into" the account was something that was so familiar to the chronicler and the original readers that it did not need to be commented on. This was a common way to torture and humiliate an enemy soldier or spy.

And I have no agenda beyond trying to understand God's Word the way He intended it to be understood.

Don't attack me. Read it for yourself. Let God's Word educate you...not popular opinion.

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I have. But evidently you haven't.

Floatingaxe said:

Never mind what I tell you! Read the account for yourself, then get bakc to us. why so you refuse such an easy task? I even posted it gere, and you still refuse to see!

You go on and on and on...saying nothing that agrees with Scripture, the authority in the matter.

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Even Scripture says nothing to relate homosexuality and Sodom. That they were men is irrelevant: take it into context. Rape was used to humiliate and degrade a person, male or female. There was no sexual attraction, merely a vicious powerplay (as you yourself have admitted).

Floatingaxe said:

Never mind what I tell you! Read the account for yourself, then get bakc to us. why so you refuse such an easy task? I even posted it gere, and you still refuse to see!

You go on and on and on...saying nothing that agrees with Scripture, the authority in the matter.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

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I read it love. You know what I saw? Never mind that. Lets concentrate on what I didn't see. Never say the word homosexual, never say "they were inflamed with lust for each other" like in Romans. You know what I saw? I saw "all the men came and said "GIVE US YOUR GUESTS SO WE MAY HAVE SEX WITH THEM". Is that what you mean? That doesn't mean "we want to have sex with them because they're men". Frankly, with the information given, you can't just decide what it says. I highly doubt that was their exact words anyway just because that would be a strange way to say it. But speaking of the story, notice how they turn on Lot and say they'll do worse to him? There's that power factor again. They simply want to overpower the guests and quickly turn their rage on Lot. Venting of power, not sexuality.

Again, nothing.

OllieFranz said:

Do you deny that on numerous occassions you claimed that Matthew 7:5 gave you the authority to verbally abuse the people on this forum?

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Don't be ridiculous. I deny that of course! There is no abuse going on except what you are doing.

1 Corinthians 5:12
It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

In spite of the fact that in order to claim that you have to leave out the first phrase, and ignore the fact that the four verses leading into that statement?
[bible]Matthew 7:1-5[/bible]
and that in order to do so you also ignore James 4:11-12
[bible]James 4:11-12[/bible]

That is the true twisting of God's word.
[bible]Deuteronomy 4:1-2[/bible]

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Whatever!
James 4:11-12 says:
Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?


So far I see someone jumping on another with both barrels blazing--not pretty.

The Hebrew says that they want to "know" Lot's visitors. The word "yadá" (ירצ) can take on a lot of different meanings. The most logical, based on what they are saying, is that the wanted to interrogate the strangers, who might possibly be spies. Lot's reaction shows that their intentions were stronger than that.

Because of the parallel with Judges 19 and 1 Chronicles 19, we know that political torture included gang-rape. But, as I already stated, gang-rape has nothing to do with exual urges. It is all about anger, violence and humiliation.

So the Genesis 19 says nothing about sexual urges, gay or straight.

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I take bible scholars and translators' expertise over yours. Genesis 19 describes violent homosexual men.
Verses 4-5
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.

If I were a more suspiscious person, I would suspect that you are accusing me of something. But since I don't twist God's Word into a perversion of His Will, I know that you can't be.

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When did I actually speak to you? What are you saying here? Seems like a little overblown reaction.

Yes, it was exactly as stated. Their beards were plucked out to make them look more like women. Their garments were split up the back to expose their buttocks.

They were humiliated because they had been abused --used like women -- and could not face their friends and family. They were rape victims.

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There is no proof of that. They were humiliated by the cutting of the beards and the baring of the upper legs.

So it's ok to read into the story that they were sodomized, when it isn't there, but no one can receive the knowledge from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that the angels were the targets of homosexual aggression when it is plainly there..is that it?

Wiccan_Child said:

Even Scripture says nothing to relate homosexuality and Sodom. That they were men is irrelevant: take it into context. Rape was used to humiliate and degrade a person, male or female. There was no sexual attraction, merely a vicious powerplay (as you yourself have admitted).

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Yes, vicious powerplay using homosexual aggression. Yikes! Scary stuff!

Floatingaxe said:

Yes, vicious powerplay using homosexual aggression. Yikes! Scary stuff!

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Fact: Floaty thinks all homosexuals are aggressive and only live to have sex with each other.

If you didn't think that, you wouldn't be so passionate about proving to us that Sodom's men were all homosexual.

david_x said:

Sodom was wealthy and became greedy, it was destroyed.
Rome was wealthy and became greedy, the church eliminated the old rome.
New York is wealthy and it is only a matter of time before it becomes greedy.

The reason I put this here? Well we learn from history.
Sodom accepted homosexuality, or at least it is not that great of an assumption.
Rome accepted homosexuality.

If New York accepts homosexuality, isn't it logical to assume the end is neer?

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A perusal of Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire shows us that Rome was a fornicating fleshpot for several centuries before its fall.

Historians have many theories about the collapse of Rome.

What we have here is a logical fallacy. You perceive a correlation, but correlation does not imply causation.

TheFathersDaughter said:

I read it love. You know what I saw? Never mind that. Lets concentrate on what I didn't see. Never say the word homosexual, never say "they were inflamed with lust for each other" like in Romans. You know what I saw? I saw "all the men came and said "GIVE US YOUR GUESTS SO WE MAY HAVE SEX WITH THEM". Is that what you mean? That doesn't mean "we want to have sex with them because they're men". Frankly, with the information given, you can't just decide what it says. I highly doubt that was their exact words anyway just because that would be a strange way to say it. But speaking of the story, notice how they turn on Lot and say they'll do worse to him? There's that power factor again. They simply want to overpower the guests and quickly turn their rage on Lot. Venting of power, not sexuality.

Again, nothing.

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Yep, it's a power thing for sure--but the weapon is an ugly one, and totally understood by the most simple reader of Scripture.

TheFathersDaughter said:

Fact: Floaty thinks all homosexuals are aggressive and only live to have sex with each other.

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You lie.

If you didn't think that, you wouldn't be so passionate about proving to us that Sodom's men were all homosexual.

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I am passionate about the Word of God, and its truth and I come against anyone who would try to change it to suit their own personal biases and agendas...and sins.