VOWisdom

Believe me, I fully understand, and agree with what you are saying VOW. I am just saying that, from what I've experienced, the veneration paid to Mary and various Popes doesn't seem to center around God so much as around their obedience to His Word.

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Our celebration of their obedience is a celebration of the grace of God and the movement of the Holy Spirit among us, His Body. It is a celebration of the handiwork of God. There is far too much separation between God and us in the minds of many. To celebrate the good things God has done through another is to give praise to God. We see the action of God around us and in all things, and try to give Him praise in all those things. When we work, we give praise through it; when we talk to our friends and grow closer in the Body of Christ, we glorify Him.

At your funeral, Ref, your children and those who love you will talk not only about who you are and what you did, but what you enabled others to do, as well. One child will look at the other and say, "when Dad grounded you, I never thought it would effect you like it did." They will be praising you by recognizing the Love that you showed your children. We do the same with Jesus. Though He has passed fom our sight, we still see his love active in others. To see Christ in all things, and in all people is a difficult task, but one that I hope to accomplish. Through emulating the various Saints, asking for their prayers, and examining how God worked in their lives, we grow closer together as a Body, alive and through Christ, despite the barriers that our flesh has erected: malice, greed, lust, and even death.

Praise be to His name!

Neal

Good point, Neal!

Recognizing and celebrating the Body of Christ is still worship of Christ.

As long as we insure we are not isolating a particular "body part" and elevating it above the entire Body, then we have committed no grave offense against God.

I love this metaphor! I remember as a kid, I used to change off which shoe I put on first, so one foot wouldn't get "jealous" of the other.

As an adult, though, I don't need to worry about one body part being jealous of another. In fact, if I buy a new pair of shoes for my feet, I think the rest of my body parts would rejoice that my feet wouldn't hurt so much and demand more of my attention!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
As long as we insure we are not isolating a particular "body part" and elevating it above the entire Body, then we have committed no grave offense against God.

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I believe one of the biggest points of contention between Catholics and other Christians is that you do seem to elevate certain "body parts" above the others.  I'm not trying to be accusatory, but, don't you even see that a little?  Or do you feel like Protestants are just making it up?

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
I believe one of the biggest points of contention between Catholics and other Christians is that you do seem to elevate certain "body parts" above the others.  I'm not trying to be accusatory, but, don't you even see that a little?  Or do you feel like Protestants are just making it up?

God bless

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I can see how that would be perceived, being a former Protestant myself. It took a while for me to come to the understanding that no one is being "raised" above Christ.

We try and give our children some real heros in this world and the saints are great examples. Now that I have a better perspective of the communion of saints it seems silly not to consider the lives of the saints as encouragement for our journey. Especially given some of the "role" models we've been given over the past 20-30 years.

Good point, NO!

Ref, if you look at the secular world, I'd say by comparison the veneration Catholics show to Mary and the saints doesn't even begin to compare to the adulation of Madonna, Britney Spears, Magic Johnson, etc etc etc. And judging from the reports on consumer debt, the US Dollar gets quite a bit of worship. Then there's the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue...

It's all a matter of perspective.



Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by Nilhil Obstat
Especially given some of the "role" models we've been given over the past 20-30 years.

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Sad, but true.

Thanks Nilhil!

God bless

Originally posted by VOW
Ref, if you look at the secular world, I'd say by comparison the veneration Catholics show to Mary and the saints doesn't even begin to compare to the adulation of Madonna, Britney Spears, Magic Johnson, etc etc etc. And judging from the reports on consumer debt, the US Dollar gets quite a bit of worship. Then there's the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue...

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True.  But the secular world is wrong.  And, I don't think it's a good idea to support the RCC's veneration of Mary and the Saints by justifying it based on being better than the practices of a heathen world.  There are so many other reasons to admire and respect the lives of many biblical personages. 

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
True.  But the secular world is wrong.  And, I don't think it's a good idea to support the RCC's veneration of Mary and the Saints by justifying it based on being better than the practices of a heathen world. 

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I think it depends on how one interprets veneration. Many folks equate veneration with worship,  and that is easy to see how one could come to that conclusion.

IMHO, veneration is no different than simply remembering one's life and the contributions they have made in God's name. People who have died for the simply fact that they were Christians - they are a source of inspiration, Mary's total commitment to God's will is another source of inspiration, etc., etc. And we simply remember these great people on "feast days" - like remembering someone's birthday, even those who are no longer with us.

I remember my grandparents birthdays every year and they've been dead for over 10 years. I visit their graves on Memorial Day and think of them and their contribution to my life.

Originally posted by Reformationist
There are so many other reasons to admire and respect the lives of many biblical personages. 

God bless

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And this is exactly what we do when we venerate a saint - we "respect the lives of many biblical personages. "

 

To Ref:

I'm not denying that the secular world is wrong .

But it is a human quality to have heroes and examples. Children especially need to look up to someone.

Christ, of course, is the Gold Standard. But allowing a child to admire a patron saint, identifying with the struggle of a martyr, or believing in the intercessory prayer of someone dead to the world but alive in Christ is certainly preferable to having a daughter who wants to be like Brittney Spears.

It's all a matter of degree, and of course, perception.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by Nilhil Obstat
I think it depends on how one interprets veneration. Many folks equate veneration with worship,  and that is easy to see how one could come to that conclusion.

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Your right.  But again, I think alot of the misconception comes from what many actually see rather than just a misunderstanding.  I'm sure that many, if not most, Catholics don't "worship" Mary.  However, unfortunately, those that don't go overboard and attribute things to Mary and the saints that should be attributed to God aren't the ones that people single out.  Unfortunately, it is those that do go overboard that get all the limelight.

And this is exactly what we do when we venerate a saint - we "respect the lives of many biblical personages. "

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Ironically, those who seem to protest the loudest are probably the first to put someone of their choosing on a pedestal.  I look to the words of many great theologians for a better understanding of God's Word.  I try not to give them more credit than is due but, I admit, it's very easy to fall into that trap.

God bless

Originally posted by VOW
I'm not denying that the secular world is right.

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EEEEEEEK!!! Typo alert!  Typo alert!   LOL!  I know, I know.  You meant the secular world is wrong. 

Thanks VOW.  

God bless

To Ref:

However, unfortunately, those that don't go overboard and attribute things to Mary and the saints that should be attributed to God aren't the ones that people single out. Unfortunately, it is those that do go overboard that get all the limelight.

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No foolin'. For that, I'll lay the blame at the feet of the secular media. Someone sees Mary in a tortilla? News at 11. A weeping Jesus from a tree that was cut down by the utility company? Watch the tabloids at the checkout stand for that one.

And the baby-raping priests with the political cover-up endorsed by the Vatican? That will be on 20/20, Dateline, AND 48 Hours.

I can't even recommend you take it all with a grain of salt, because, after all, salt is notorious for causing high blood pressure.


Peace,
~VOW

Typo alert! Typo alert!

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/me heads off to the break room for more coffee, since she's obviously functioning under extreme caffeine deficit....

<sighing in her coffee cup>
~VOW

Unfortunately, it is those that do go overboard that get all the limelight.

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Amen, Ref. Of all the threads in One Bread-One Body, how many of them started by Catholics are on Mary? How often do we really bring her up? We surely do, but I feel their is a tendency for non-Catholics to blow it out of proportion a bit. There will always be those who twist the Church's teachings, turning Mary into a goddess, but they are in the vast minority. I read one statement on here that someone said they had been to a Mass, but he felt it didn;t focus on Jesus' sacrifice enough for him... Now pardon me for being amused, but after all the flack I've caught over Crucifixes over the altar, the Sacrifice of the Mass, and our pastors being called priests I had to chuckle. This man had already decided what Catholics really do. I had someone tell me in a PM that we on this board weren't real Catholics, because he knew real Catholics, and they didn't believe like we do here. I don't know, man. VOW is in California, I'm in Tennessee, nyj is from Oklahoma City via NY, KC from KC, Jukes from Arkansas, niwde is from Malaysia, Wols, Kotton, patriarch, ZooMom, Avila, and Annabel are all from somewhere different, but we all profess the same faith. I've been to Mexico, and I know Latin American Catholicism, and it is the same... different practices at times, and different things are stressed, but the orthodox beliefs were the same. In almost every parish there will be some who misunderstand, but the majority are orthodox... For the Mystics we are too logical, for the logisticians we are too mystical... I can live with that. The media sensationalizes everything. Look at how they twisted the US Bishops' Conference into saying, "Jews are not to be evangelized!" Oh dear Lord, I pray for us all! I know the Protestants deal with discrimination and suspicion, as well. I suppose it is the struggle of a Christian to bear this cross humbly. I'm sorry to fuss about it. I should just suck it up, but it gets old being told what I really do. Thanks for trying to understand what we believe, Don. That really means a lot that you care enough about us to learn. God Bless you for that, and all the rest, as well.

Neal

Originally posted by s0uljah
She is brought up because she is the number 1 attacked aspect of the Church. I never really thought too much about it until fundies kept claiming we worship her.

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You know, when you say "fundies" in such a derrogatory way like that it almost sounds as if you're referring to Protestants.&nbsp; I don't know of anyone other than&nbsp;Protestants&nbsp;who regularly "attack" your church about that issue.&nbsp; Does "attacking"&nbsp;your church about the whole "worshipping Mary" thing make someone a "fundie?"&nbsp; Does that mean that Catholics are not fundamentalists?&nbsp; I don't know enough about the Catholic faith to determine if you guys take the Bible, as a whole,&nbsp;literally.&nbsp; I kind of got the impression that with the whole "Eucharist" and "Baptism" issues that your church leaned towards fundamentalism.&nbsp; Is that wrong?

God bless

OVERUSE OF MODIFIERS

<B>*FUNDAMENTALIST</B>
<I>Why Problematic:</I> Although there are some individuals who proudly apply the term "Fundamentalist" to themselves, this word has such overwhelmingly negative connotations to most that it is commonly regarded as a term of abuse. Consequently, many readers will assume that you are being abusive when you are not. Further, because Evangelicals tend to have the same theological beliefs as those who call themselves Fundamentalists, even if you are only talking about the latter then many Evangelicals will assume that you are speaking of them and being abusive to boot.


In recent years some Western reporters have begun to apply the term "Fundamentalist" to certain non-Christians--e.g., "Fundamentalist Muslims"--based on perceived (often imaginary or wildly exaggerated) similarities to the attitudes of Fundamentalist Christians.


<I>When Okay:</I> When you are referring to those who apply the term to themselves. Even then you may need to caution the audience and explain how you are <I>not</I> using the term.


<I>Alternatives: </I>If you want to refer to the group without sounding abusive, try phrases like CONSERVATIVE PROTESTANTS, CULTURALLY CONSERVATIVE PROTESTANTS. If you are referring to Evangelicals then use EVANGELICAL. If you are referring to fanatical Muslims then use ISLAMIST (this, apparently, is the term of choice among Muslims to refer to their fanatics, though it sounds like a dis of their whole religion to me).

&nbsp;

Found this here: http://jamesakin.blogspot.com/

Originally posted by Reformationist
You know, when you say "fundies" in such a derrogatory way like that it almost sounds as if you're referring to Protestants.&nbsp; I don't know of anyone other than&nbsp;Protestants&nbsp;who regularly "attack" your church about that issue.

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I think anyone who "attacked" the Catholics about that would definitionally be protestant; Catholics obviously don't think what they do is a problem, and non-Christians are unlikely to care.

That said, I think most protestants do not attack the Catholics about this. I think those that do are doing so based on miscommunications about how Catholics view Mary.

Does "attacking"&nbsp;your church about the whole "worshipping Mary" thing make someone a "fundie?"&nbsp; Does that mean that Catholics are not fundamentalists?&nbsp; I don't know enough about the Catholic faith to determine if you guys take the Bible, as a whole,&nbsp;literally.&nbsp; I kind of got the impression that with the whole "Eucharist" and "Baptism" issues that your church leaned towards fundamentalism.&nbsp; Is that wrong?

God bless

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"Fundamentalism" is most often identified by literalism and /sola scriptura/, neither of which the Catholic faith adheres to. Catholics take some parts of the Bible more literally than the average Protestant, and other parts less literally. However, they don't do /sola scriptura/, so they don't match the traditional understanding of Christian fundamentalism.

Note that questioning the Catholic Church's teachings about Mary probably doesn't make you a "fundie". However, if you reject their explanations of their beliefs and assert that the stuff in Chick tracts is a better portrayal than their own experiences and explanations, then you are probably getting into the mindset generally associated (tragically enough) with "fundamentalism".

I wish that "fundamentalist" meant "person who adheres dogmatically only to the most fundamental beliefs" - say, someone who adheres firmly only to the Nicene Creed itself, and does not necessarily add any additional baggage.

Just for the record, I proudly acknowledge myself as a fundamentalist.&nbsp; However, even admitting that, I would have to say that I take certain portions of the Bible as more symbolic than literal.&nbsp; My&nbsp;concern wasn't really with the accuracy of the label with regard to the target group, it centered more around the apparent context in which it was used.&nbsp; At the risk of sounding like I took great offense to the term "fundie," which I didn't, I was just trying to clarify whom s0uljah was referring to.&nbsp; And, as I said, to my knowledge, the only "group" that takes significant issue with the practices of the Catholic church regarding Mary are Protestants.&nbsp; And, if "fundie" was used interchangeably with "Protestant," it just seems to be an inaccurate blanket statement about the relatively diverse actions of an incongruous group.

God bless

I wouldn't call you a fundie... but then again, I don't really think it is a great term, either. At any rate, I wouldn't place you in the Jack Chick / Lorraine Boettner crowd that the term "fundie" refers to. You are much too rational... most of the time.

Peace and laughter,

Neal