Rosary

To Ref:

Because Mary is mentioned.

The hosts didn't go to Jesus, Peter didn't go to Jesus, neither the bride nor the groom went to Jesus...Mary did.

We're not told in Scripture anything about the situation except that His mother spoke to Him, He told her it was not yet His time, and then she turns to the servants and says, "Do what He tells you."

Ref, the communication problem between Protestants and Catholics typically ends up being a question of "where is it in Scripture?"

This is a case where it IS indeed in Scripture, and here you are proposing all different types of scenarios. And yet if you read it as it is written, right in Scripture, it's a conversation between Mary and her Son.

This is indeed a situation where we differ on interpretation.


Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by Reformationist
Okay.  Let me address this logically.  Was the miracle at Cana God's Will?  If so, would Jesus know about it?  If so, would He do that which was His Father's Will?  If so, was He doing the miracle at the time appointed by His Father?  If so, was Jesus performing the miracle because of Mary's request, or because it was His Father's Will?

Sorry bro.  All of those seem pretty self evident.  I would answer those yes, yes, yes, yes, and because it was God's Will.  I don't believe that Mary being the one to ask, or inform Jesus of the wine shortage, had anything to do with it.  Do you think there's even the remotest possibility that Jesus would do something that wasn't God's Will?  If not, then why would you attribute the reason for Jesus turning the water to wine to the request made by Mary and not that it was the Will of God?  How did her asking have anything to do with it?

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First, don't do the condesending "Sorry Bro" thing with me. It's belitteling to me and overused by you as a poorly used mechenism to defuse the conversation.

Secondly, I think you are narrowing everyones actions down to mere puppetry, which is also your MO for most discussions surrounding mysteries for which you do not a have a standard pat answer for.

Thirdly, you are avoiding my point all together. Read it again:

"by obeying the Fathers law (Honor Thy Mother and Father) it can be said that God's will was done through Jesus' obeying of the commandments - which honors his father, God by keeping his laws and doing his will AND starting him on his ministry.

But it also shows that Jesus honored his mother by answering her request which started him on his ministry."

Nowhere in that statement did I deny: 1. The soveriengty of God, 2. Deny that God's will was done; 3. Positioned Mary or Jesus in roles where they could be disobedient to God.

That's akin to giving yourself some credit when you are obedient to God's Word.  Don't you realize that the only thing that enables you to ever obey Him is His grace?

God bless

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To quote Paul and I think Mother Tereasa...we ALL are merely crooked tools in God's hands. Mary was an instrument in God's hands more than once.

You asked if Jesus could deny God's will? In the Garden of Gethsemini Jesus sweated blood and asked the if is God's will that this cup may pass from him. He prayed that not just once, but twice.

Why? If Jesus knew God's will and was going to do it...why would he ask his father to "let the cup pass fom him?"

This line of reasoning that Jesus needed a jumpstart to do the Will of His Father seems so strange to me. Regardless of who God uses to facilitate His Will, don't you guys believe that, not only did Jesus know what that Will is, that He did it every time?

It just seems to me that you guys are saying, or implying, that Mary was more in touch with God's Will that His own Son, God Himself, was. Strange.

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I do not believe that Jesus knew exactly what each, specific event He was to do was until the time came for Him to know.

Luke 2:51-52
And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

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Jesus was a man. He had to learn things like how to walk, talk, and fish. He had to be potty trained, taught the trade of a carpenter, and taught the ways of Judaism. In each of these things, God chose Mary and Joseph to be His foremost instructors. He "was submissive to them,"as any good Jewish boy would have been. This is what we call His experiential knowledge.

Jesus knew His mission on this earth, undoubtedly. Did He see the path laid clearly out before Him, I doubt it. His experiential knowledge and the revelations He had led Him to realize those things that he understood only hazily. What He did, though, was always follow the Will of the Father, even if He was unsure of the precise, physical outcome of the event. He showed us what faith was. Did he know He would be crucified? Sure. Did He know the date? I would say towards His latter days, yes. Did He know He would be stabbed in the side by a guard? I don't think so, but He could have. I believe the Agony in the Garden shows this perfectly. He knew He would die, and His only desire was to do the Will of the Father. He did not want the pain, nor did He know exactly what lay before Him, but He gave Himself anyway, out of obedience and a faith that God is always faithful.

His perfect Spiritual understanding led Him to glein more things than any of us could ever dream from His experiences. When we read the Scriptures, we get confused. When He read them, that experience led Him to greater realization and clarity. He had "increased in wisdom" even more. I believe Mary's urging was just such an experience. To quote Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction, I think Jesus had a moment of clarity. The Father had just shown Him, surprisingly enough, that His mission which had begun to become more clear to Him, wouldn't begin with a great healing, but with the creation of wine from water at the pleading of His mother. To me, that is a very human and touching detail from a very humble God. The God who first humbled Himself and took flesh chose not to start His ministry in a glorious fashion, but in a manner that would help those closest to Him in something that seems, to us, so small and insignificant. That immediacy and closeness of God to us should make us cry with joy. Jesus truly is Emmanuel- God Among Us.

God Bless,

Neal

/me performs finely executed "VOW Bow" to KC and isshinwhat

(patent pending)

Bravo!



Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
We're not told in Scripture anything about the situation except that His mother spoke to Him, He told her it was not yet His time, and then she turns to the servants and says, "Do what He tells you."

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Okay.  I still see nothing that implies that Jesus went straight away and did something contrary to what He had previously said.  I still see no contradiction, apparant or implied. 

This is a case where it IS indeed in Scripture, and here you are proposing all different types of scenarios. And yet if you read it as it is written, right in Scripture, it's a conversation between Mary and her Son.

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I never said they didn't have a conversation.  However, if I read the conversation I would read that Mary said the hosts are out of wine and Jesus said, "Why is that my concern.  It's not my time yet."  What is it that you think is displayed in the conversation? 

God bless 

Originally posted by KC Catholic
First, don't do the condesending "Sorry Bro" thing with me. It's belitteling to me and overused by you as a poorly used mechenism to defuse the conversation.

Click to expand...

Sorry KC.  I didn't mean it that way.

Secondly, I think you are narrowing everyones actions down to mere puppetry, which is also your MO for most discussions surrounding mysteries for which you do not a have a standard pat answer for.

Click to expand...

Didn't mean to do that either. 

Thirdly, you are avoiding my point all together. Read it again:

"by obeying the Fathers law (Honor Thy Mother and Father) it can be said that God's will was done through Jesus' obeying of the commandments - which honors his father, God by keeping his laws and doing his will AND starting him on his ministry.

But it also shows that Jesus honored his mother by answering her request which started him on his ministry."

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to avoid your point.  I just don't agree that that was why Jesus performed the miracle. 

Nowhere in that statement did I deny: 1. The soveriengty of God, 2. Deny that God's will was done; 3. Positioned Mary or Jesus in roles where they could be disobedient to God.

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I never implied you did.

Why? If Jesus knew God's will and was going to do it...why would he ask his father to "let the cup pass fom him?"

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I think it was the to make the point that, though He was enduring much, that doing the Will of the Father took precedence over His own human desires.

It seems very apparent that you are interpretating my posts in a negative way.  I do not want to be a stumbling block to you.  I will not respond to your posts in this thread again.  Again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way.

God bless

Originally posted by isshinwhat
I do not believe that Jesus knew exactly what each, specific event He was to do was until the time came for Him to know.

Jesus was a man. He had to learn things like how to walk, talk, and fish. He had to be potty trained, taught the trade of a carpenter, and taught the ways of Judaism. In each of these things, God chose Mary and Joseph to be His foremost instructors. He "was submissive to them,"as any good Jewish boy would have been. This is what we call His experiential knowledge.

Jesus knew His mission on this earth, undoubtedly. Did He see the path laid clearly out before Him, I doubt it. His experiential knowledge and the revelations He had led Him to realize those things that he understood only hazily. What He did, though, was always follow the Will of the Father, even if He was unsure of the precise, physical outcome of the event. He showed us what faith was. Did he know He would be crucified? Sure. Did He know the date? I would say towards His latter days, yes. Did He know He would be stabbed in the side by a guard? I don't think so, but He could have. I believe the Agony in the Garden shows this perfectly. He knew He would die, and His only desire was to do the Will of the Father. He did not want the pain, nor did He know exactly what lay before Him, but He gave Himself anyway, out of obedience and a faith that God is always faithful.

His perfect Spiritual understanding led Him to glein more things than any of us could ever dream from His experiences. When we read the Scriptures, we get confused. When He read them, that experience led Him to greater realization and clarity. He had "increased in wisdom" even more. I believe Mary's urging was just such an experience. To quote Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction, I think Jesus had a moment of clarity. The Father had just shown Him, surprisingly enough, that His mission which had begun to become more clear to Him, wouldn't begin with a great healing, but with the creation of wine from water at the pleading of His mother. To me, that is a very human and touching detail from a very humble God. The God who first humbled Himself and took flesh chose not to start His ministry in a glorious fashion, but in a manner that would help those closest to Him in something that seems, to us, so small and insignificant. That immediacy and closeness of God to us should make us cry with joy. Jesus truly is Emmanuel- God Among Us.

God Bless,

Neal

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I see.  Well, I'll give it some thought.  I have never considered the possibility that Jesus "wasn't sure" of something He did.  I can't say that I initially see it as logical or probable.  But, I will study and give it some thought.

Talk to y'all later,

God bless

I have never considered the possibility that Jesus "wasn't sure" of something He did.

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He was certainly sure that God would provide, He was sure that He must follow the Will of the Father, and when the time came, I believe He was sure He would follow the Will of the Father. What I do not believe He was sure of were the exact physical repercussions of each action. Do I believe He understood them in context when they occurred? Absolutely. I believe that the humanity of Jesus has been overlooked far too often by Christians, to the point that many don't even see a difference between the Father and Jesus anymore.

I can't say that I initially see it as logical or probable. But, I will study and give it some thought.

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If Jesus knew the result of every action he undertook, then was it faith that He showed us? How did Jesus grow in wisdom if He knew it all already? I find my stance to be most logical and probable. At least as logical as things can be when you are dealing with a being who was both fully God and fully man. I pray your thoughts on the subject prove fruitful.

God Bless,

Neal

Let me say first off that I have known many wonderful catholic brothers and sisters in my life. They are certainly saved, and we will see them in heaven one day.... praise the Lord!

Do I disagree on some issues... to be sure.
But none so strongly that I would break fellowship or argue about. I dated a good catholic girl for two years, and even went to mass with her many times (it was odd going to church on saturday night!) My brother married a catholic girl. My father's second wife was catholic. My best friends in HS were catholic, even tho they did not go to public school.

I do not say the rosary because I do not share the beliefs concerning Mary that the RCC hold.

Why all this speculation about Jesus' life. If the Bible is silent on certain areas, there's a purpose for keeping silent on it. Shld we then go on speculating all sorts of things?

why not speculate on Paul's childhood, or Mary's favourite dishes?