Why Did You Accept God's Offer?

martymonster · Jun 22, 2007

StudentoftheWord said:
Wow, so salvation is ultimate act of self-preservation. Creepy how sin comes in and the door for Satan is wide open.

Two men in heaven, having a conversation under the Tree of Life.

Craig: Yep, Bill

Bill: Uh-huh

Craig: You just weren't wise enough to recognize a good deal when you see one.

Bill: I guess not.

Craig: Yep, I saw it.

Bill:Yep, you did.

Craig: You should have been like me and accepted it, but you know, now it is too late.

Bill: Yep.

Craig: Wow, I am so wise.

Bill: Yep.

Craig: Uh, Bill, why are you here?

Bill: I guess someone saved me.

An apple falls from the tree hitting Craig square on the head.

Craig: Oh, yea.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Yeah Craig, keep up the good work!

StudentoftheWord · Jun 22, 2007

Evergreen48 said:
Do you never tire of writing skits? Is this one of your hobbies, or what?

They prove the point. Ever wonder why some laugh at you when you say silly things? Well now you know. When I shared that skit with others they couldn't get the tears out of their eyes, they were laughing so hard. What you said was silly, and has no biblical precident, only the traditions of men which nullify the Word of God. So, I really don't think you are yawning and snoring. If it didn't tug at your conscience, you wouldn't have even made a remark about it.

StudentoftheWord · Jun 22, 2007

martymonster said:
Yeah Craig, keep up the good work!

Hehe. Yea. Inspiration comes from the strangest places.

StudentoftheWord · Jun 22, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
An offer of a gift is not a gift but an offer. A gift is given freely with no strings attached. Many gifts are given and one need not accept them to actually receive them nor do they even need to know they have been given.

Take the gift of life for example, did you accept it as a baby? Did you even know it was a gift? Did you receive it anyway?

Faith is a gift. Must you accept it for it to be given or can you simply receive it without even realizing it has been given?

Amen.

As I live, I will always define gift and reward to my dying breathe since it seems many in Christianity speak Christianese and make up their definitions to suit their doctrines, instead of letting the truth set them free.

A GIFT never affects our WILL, we will receive it no matter our intentions. A GIFT is given outside our WILL despite our choices and our understanding of the world we live in. We could live our entire lives never deserving, never working, and never knowing, and still receive a gift. A gift is always at the mercy of the one giving it with no regard to the one it is given to! That is why it does not matter him who runs but God who has mercy over all.

A REWARD, WAGE, PRIZE always affects our will and is awarded because of our intentions. A REWARD, WAGE, PRIZE, is given because of our WILL because of our choices and our understanding of the world we live in. We must work our entire lives and always knowing and deserve the REWARD, WAGE or PRIZE. A REWARD is always given with partiality to the one receiving it with absolute regard to the one receiving. This is why we must be careful not to lose that which we work so hard so to receive fully.

Don't believe me, go look it up in a dictionary.

LightBearer · Jun 22, 2007

StudentoftheWord said:
It doesn't matter. Judas did not know what his crime was doing regardless if it was premeditated and dilibrate. Suicide is not an act of someone who is confident in his decision and proud of what he had done. That means, he really did not expect this to happen.

You keep making the point that Judas did not know what the consequences of his betrayal would mean for Jesus. The bible CLEARLY teaches otherwise.

Matthew 20:17-19 Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve (Including Judas) disciples off privately and said to them on the road: "Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up."

He was PLAINLY TOLD by Jesus what the consequences of the betrayal would be. And yet, Judas still went ahead with his wicked pre-meditated scheme.

Luke 22:1-6 "Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near. Also, the chief priests and the scribes were seeking the effective way for them to get rid of him, for they were in fear of the people. But Satan entered into Judas, the one called Is·car´i·ot, who was numbered among the twelve; and he went off and talked with the chief priests and [temple] captains about the effective way to betray him to them. Well, they rejoiced and agreed to give him silver money. So he consented, and he began to seek a good opportunity to betray him to them without a crowd around."

Regards,

LB. A christian witness of Jehovah the only True God. (John 17:3)

Evergreen48 · Jun 23, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
An offer of a gift is not a gift but an offer. A gift is given freely with no strings attached.

Thats quite profound.

Many gifts are given and one need not accept them to actually receive them nor do they even need to know they have been given.

In order to accept a gift one must first recieve it, and in order to recieve it it must be accepted.

Take the gift of life for example, did you accept it as a baby? Did you even know it was a gift? Did you receive it anyway?

Although this kind of life of which you speak does come from God, it does not qualify as a gift as eternal life qualifiies as a gift. For this kind of life that we have here on earth is temporary. And God does not take back His gifts. Therefore the questions you ask are not relative to the situation we are discussing.

Faith is a gift. Must you accept it for it to be given. or can you simply receive it without even realizing it has been given?

Well, I think one would certainly know if they have it or not. And if one has it then this means that they recieved it, doesn't it?

Evergreen48 · Jun 23, 2007

StudentoftheWord said:
They prove the point. Ever wonder why some laugh at you when you say silly things? Well now you know. When I shared that skit with others they couldn't get the tears out of their eyes, they were laughing so hard.

Some people just have a weird sense of humor, I guess.

What you said was silly, and has no biblical precident, only the traditions of men which nullify the Word of God.

I gave the bibilical precedent for my remark, and it was scripture, not tradition that I gave.

So, I really don't think you are yawning and snoring. If it didn't tug at your conscience, you wouldn't have even made a remark about it.

I pass on this one.

Soul Searcher · Jun 23, 2007

Evergreen48 said:
Thats quite profound.

Thank you

In order to accept a gift one must first recieve it, and in order to recieve it it must be accepted.

Not true. You are thinking in much to small of a box here. If someone gives you a physical gift wrapped in a physical box you may reach out your hand and take it, or they may just set it on the table, you may or may not be home at the time, you may or may not know who gave it.

What it someone gave you the gift of mowing your lawn and you weren't home at the time. You did not accept it persey, you did not reach out and take it. It was given without your knowledge and is done, it can not be rejected, you may not even know who did it. It is done. The list of possibilities is endless.

Although this kind of life of which you speak does come from God, it does not qualify as a gift as eternal life qualifiies as a gift.

I did not say it was the gift of eternal life but it is the gift of life is it not. Why not answer the questions instead of going around them?

For this kind of life that we have here on earth is temporary. And God does not take back His gifts. Therefore the questions you ask are not relative to the situation we are discussing.

Smells like a copout. Are you saying that life is not a gift? Does a gift need to be of infinite duration or can it be a perishable item?

Well, I think one would certainly know if they have it or not. And if one has it then this means that they recieved it, doesn't it?

Recieved yes but not in the way that you may be eluding to. In other words it does not mean that they had to say ok I want it or here let me take it but maybe that it was just suddenly there they may not even be aware that it is there or that there was even a gift to begin with but they still have it. And in the case of salvation many will not know they have received it until the last day.

ChasClean · Jun 23, 2007

Evergreen,

You neglected to answer the second part, Why do some reject the offer?

The answer is not found in throwing verses back and forth. That may be fun to show off what we know, but it goes nowhere, without a change of heart and mind.

Verses that encourage us or warn us are simply one of the means used by God to perform His will. We read them and in His timing and solely by His Spirit, the verses are quickened and used to accomplish their purpose.

Your ultimate heart and mind is to be separate from God. To ultimately receive Your own credit for what You have done. Standing apart from God, receiving Your own glory. God would have you to repent, change your mind and view and realize that your crown of accomplishments will be thrown at His feet, when you recognize He initiated every good and evil act which you performed for His purposes. (Dont go off on the evil thing. You know God uses evil to perform His good and perfect will.)

Originally Posted by ChasClean
Eph 2:8 For it is by "Your Wisdom, you have been saved, through "working up of Your" faith--and a whole lot of this "Is" from yourselves, "along with a little" gift of God-- (EV - Evergreen's Version)

[FONT="]Exodus 20: 16. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." -- (KJV - King James Version)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Your own mouth has said it. You are saved because of Your Wisdom. Through generating your own faith and through Your act of acceptance. No false testimony here.

StudentoftheWord · Jun 23, 2007

LightBearer said:
You keep making the point that Judas did not know what the consequences of his betrayal would mean for Jesus. The bible CLEARLY teaches otherwise.

Matthew 20:17-19 Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve (Including Judas) disciples off privately and said to them on the road: "Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up."

He was PLAINLY TOLD by Jesus what the consequences of the betrayal would be. And yet, Judas still went ahead with his wicked pre-meditated scheme.

Luke 22:1-6 "Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near. Also, the chief priests and the scribes were seeking the effective way for them to get rid of him, for they were in fear of the people. But Satan entered into Judas, the one called Is·car´i·ot, who was numbered among the twelve; and he went off and talked with the chief priests and [temple] captains about the effective way to betray him to them. Well, they rejoiced and agreed to give him silver money. So he consented, and he began to seek a good opportunity to betray him to them without a crowd around."

Regards,

LB. A christian witness of Jehovah the only True God. (John 17:3)

You still are looking at the surface of things. It doesn't matter if it was pre-meditated. Judas did not know what he was doing. Judas is not God, to have all knowledge. No man knows what he is doing when he works after the flesh, and does the deeds of sin.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Judas was a slave to sin, and did not come to his senses, but was in the trap of the devil, who had taken him captive to do his will. A slave has no will, a man who has not come to his senses, is ignorant and someone who is captive to do with will of the devil, has no choice but to do the will of the devil.

Go read it again.

I gave the bibilical precedent for my remark, and it was scripture, not tradition that I gave.

Where is the biblical precident for that remark? Show me in Scripture where Salvation is called an offer and show me the Scripture you used. Show me where it says, a person is wise to see a 'good deal'.

StudentoftheWord · Jun 23, 2007

LightBearer said:
You keep making the point that Judas did not know what the consequences of his betrayal would mean for Jesus. The bible CLEARLY teaches otherwise.

Matthew 20:17-19 Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve (Including Judas) disciples off privately and said to them on the road: "Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up."

He was PLAINLY TOLD by Jesus what the consequences of the betrayal would be. And yet, Judas still went ahead with his wicked pre-meditated scheme.

Luke 22:1-6 "Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near. Also, the chief priests and the scribes were seeking the effective way for them to get rid of him, for they were in fear of the people. But Satan entered into Judas, the one called Is·car´i·ot, who was numbered among the twelve; and he went off and talked with the chief priests and [temple] captains about the effective way to betray him to them. Well, they rejoiced and agreed to give him silver money. So he consented, and he began to seek a good opportunity to betray him to them without a crowd around."

Regards,

LB. A christian witness of Jehovah the only True God. (John 17:3)

No the Bible clearly says it was premeditated and that he had knowledge of what he was doing.

A scientist who mixes Chemical A and Chemical B, knows he is mixing Chemical A and Chemical B but if he knew that mixing Chemical A and Chemical B would create an explosion that destroyed himself and everything the lab, he would do it.

Judus did not realize what he was doing. Had he truly understood and known that Jesus was the Son of God, he would not have done it. It was so that the Son of God would die for us, that it was predestined that Judas would betray him.

You keep thinking that Judas was God and knew everything.

bluemarkus · Jun 23, 2007

i accepted it because i had ruined my life beforehand, i thought it was beyond repair. in a way that was the best thing that could happen so i would need his salvation.

Evergreen48 · Jun 24, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Not true. You are thinking in much to small of a box here. If someone gives you a physical gift wrapped in a physical box you may reach out your hand and take it, or they may just set it on the table, you may or may not be home at the time, you may or may not know who gave it.

After all is said and done, you will either accept or reject the gift. Whether or not you are home when the gift is left, or whether or not you know who gave it is beside the point. I don't know anyone who would just leave a package wrapped as a gift sitting on a table very long without opening it. And if its something they have no use for, or don't like, most likely they will just put it in the trash, and the latter is likely, especially if they don't know who the benefactor is. That would constitute rejection of the gift.

What it someone gave you the gift of mowing your lawn and you weren't home at the time. You did not accept it persey, you did not reach out and take it. It was given without your knowledge and is done, it can not be rejected, you may not even know who did it. It is done. The list of possibilities is endless.

In this circumstance the acceptance or rejection of the gift would be a mental one. If the person who mowed your lawn did a sloppy job or mowed your peonies and petunias over, then most likely, one would reject the gift mentally.

But this is all pretty silly speculative argumentation on both our parts, IMO. We can not compare God's gift of eternal life to the gift of someone mowing your yard while you are not home, or placing a gift on your table while you are not there.

I did not say it was the gift of eternal life but it is the gift of life is it not.

No. Our natural life is not a gift.

Can you find where the natural life of a person is catergorized as being one of God's gifts to mankind?

Why not answer the questions instead of going around them?

Smells like a copout. Are you saying that life is not a gift?

I just did answer the question. And once again: Yes, I am saying that natural life does not fall into the classification of being one of His gifts.

Does a gift need to be of infinite duration or can it be a perishable item?

As God is infinite, so are His gifts.

Soul Searcher said:
Soul Searcher said:

]Faith is a gift. Must you accept it for it to be given. or can you simply receive it without even realizing it has been given?

Click to expand...

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

Well, I think one would certainly know if they have it or not. And if one has it then this means that they recieved it, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

Soul Searcher said:
Recieved yes but not in the way that you may be eluding to. In other words it does not mean that they had to say ok I want it or here let me take it but maybe that it was just suddenly there they may not even be aware that it is there or that there was even a gift to begin with but they still have it.

Faith is a state of the mind. Therefore one certainly would know whether they believe something or not. And they would know it the moment they started to believe, don't you think?

And in the case of salvation many will not know they have received it until the last day.

That is opinion, not scripture. Actually the scripture says that at the last day, many who thought they had salvation will find out they didn't have it after all.

martymonster · Jun 24, 2007

Evergreen48 said:
After all is said and done, you will either accept or reject the gift. Whether or not you are home when the gift is left, or whether or not you know who gave it is beside the point. I don't know anyone who would just leave a package wrapped as a gift sitting on a table very long without opening it. And if its something they have no use for, or don't like, most likely they will just put it in the trash, and the latter is likely, especially if they don't know who the benefactor is. That would constitute rejection of the gift.

In this circumstance the acceptance or rejection of the gift would be a mental one. If the person who mowed your lawn did a sloppy job or mowed your peonies and petunias over, then most likely, one would reject the gift mentally.

But this is all pretty silly speculative argumentation on both our parts, IMO. We can not compare God's gift of eternal life to the gift of someone mowing your yard while you are not home, or placing a gift on your table while you are not there.

No. Our natural life is not a gift.

Can you find where the natural life of a person is catergorized as being one of God's gifts to mankind?

I just did answer the question. And once again: Yes, I am saying that natural life does not fall into the classification of being one of His gifts.

As God is infinite, so are His gifts.

Faith is a state of the mind. Therefore one certainly would know whether they believe something or not. And they would know it the moment they started to believe, don't you think?

That is opinion, not scripture. Actually the scripture says that at the last day, many who thought they had salvation will find out they didn't have it after all.

Just unreal!

Evergreen48 · Jun 24, 2007

StudentoftheWord said:
Where is the biblical precident for that remark?

For the second time:

Proverbs 3: 35. "The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools."

Proverbs 10: 7. "The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.
8. The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall."

Daniel 12: 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Matthew 7: 21. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 7: 24. "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

Show me in Scripture where Salvation is called an offer and show me the Scripture you used

Show me where I said the scripture does call salvation an offer.

Show me where it says, a person is wise to see a 'good deal'.

Scripture doesn't use the words 'good deal'. I put the words in quotation marks to show that this was my own language, and not the language of the scripture.

Soul Searcher · Jun 24, 2007

Evergreen.. I think that either you do not know what a gift is or you just refuse to consider a broader view on the subject than what you have already ingrained in yourself.

Life.. this life that we are currently living is a gift. You deny this because the notion destroys your theory of having to "accept" a gift. The bible tells us all good things come from God, there are several gifts mentioned none of which require someone to actually accept them they just get them and once they have them they are thiers wether they want them or not.

Evergreen48 · Jun 24, 2007

The answer is not found in throwing verses back and forth. That may be fun to show off what we know, but it goes nowhere, without a change of heart and mind.

Chas, I don't think I have thrown any verses 'back and forth', and my intentions are not to 'show off'. And it seems to me that you are suggesting that I need a change of heart and mind. I couldn't, or wouldn't say that about anyone else, including you. For I don't pretend to know the heart and mind of anyone else other than my own. Only God is able to know that.

Verses that encourage us or warn us are simply one of the means used by God to perform His will. We read them and in His timing and solely by His Spirit, the verses are quickened and used to accomplish their purpose.

If this is what you have figured out about certain scriptures that seem to warn or encourage, then so be it. Thats your perogative and your thoughts are your own.

Your ultimate heart and mind is to be separate from God. To ultimately receive Your own credit for what You have done. Standing apart from God, receiving Your own glory.

There you go again; reading my heart and mind. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't expect to recieve any credit or glory for listening to God, and trying to do what He would have me do.

God would have you to repent, change your mind and view and realize that your crown of accomplishments will be thrown at His feet, when you recognize He initiated every good and evil act which you performed for His purposes. (Dont go off on the evil thing. You know God uses evil to perform His good and perfect will.)

It could very well be that your god does initiate the evil acts that you perform. But my God does no such thing as that. And my God is much more powerful than that He needs to use anything at all to perform His good and perfect will. All my God has to do to perform His good and perfect will is to utter "IT IS", and IT IS !

Evergreen48 · Jun 25, 2007

martymonster said:
Just unreal!

Marty, if you wish to engage in a discussion with me concerning anything in the post which you made this reply to, I suggest that you put whatever it is that you think is 'unreal' about my post in the form of a reply to said post, and then we can talk about it. K?

LightBearer · Jun 25, 2007

studentoftheword said:
You still are looking at the surface of things. It doesn't matter if it was pre-meditated. Judas did not know what he was doing. Judas is not God, to have all knowledge.

Are you saying that we need to be God and have all knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong?

studentoftheword said:
No man knows what he is doing when he works after the flesh, and does the deeds of sin.
John 8:34
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Are you then saying that we are not accountable for our actions when we sin?

studentoftheword said:
2 Timothy 2:25-26
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Judas was a slave to sin, and did not come to his senses, but was in the trap of the devil, who had taken him captive to do his will. A slave has no will, a man who has not come to his senses, is ignorant and someone who is captive to do with will of the devil, has no choice but to do the will of the devil.

Go read it again.

I have read it again, but lets take a look at your quoted text in its proper context.

Those who oppose him he must gently instruct Paul here is referring to Non-Believers as the context clearly indicates by the fact that they may attain to repentance leading them to knowledge of the truth. As Non worshipers of God and therefore ignorant of God and his truth they were knowingly or unknowingly serving the purpose of the devil. As Jesus had stated: He that is not on my side is against me Matt 12:30.

Now, how does this scripture NOT apply to Judas situation? Simple, Judas was not an un-believer ignorant of the truth of God because Jesus had taught him such. Judas had already previously been enlightened or brought to his senses. Therefore, any further practice of sin would be done, not out of ignorance but with full knowledge that what he was doing was contrary to and against the will of God.

Again, I go back to the book of Hebrews were it referrers to those like Judas who had been enlightened by God and Jesus but who after such enlightenment revert to practicing sin.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

This is why Jesus said of Judas: "not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction (Judas).

Thats is the most severe of punishments that God hands out, reserved for the most accountable of sinners. It would seem a little harsh for one whom God considered didn't know what he was doing dont ya think.

Matthew 10:28 "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na"

Regards

Lb. A Christian witness of Jehovah the only True God. (John 17:3)

Evergreen48 · Jun 26, 2007

Soul Searcher said:
Evergreen.. I think that either you do not know what a gift is or you just refuse to consider a broader view on the subject than what you have already ingrained in yourself.

A broader view?

The following Greek words have all been translated 'gift' in the New Testament.

doron - a present; specially, a sacrifice

dorea - a gratuity:

charis - graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude)

doma - a present

dorema - a bestowment

'doron' - ( a present; specially, a sacrifice) which has been translated as 'gift' has been used in the following scriptures: -Matthew 5:23, 24 -Matthew 8:4 - Matthew 15:5 - Matthew 23:18, 19 - Mark 7:11, and Ephesians 2:8.

So, are you sure that you know what was meant in Ephesians 2:8 when it speaks of faith being a gift? (As for myself, I believe that it is not the faith, but is the salvation which is said to be the gift.)

Life.. this life that we are currently living is a gift.

By insisting 'that life ... this life that we are currently living is a gift', you have created an impossible situation.

A gift cannot be given to anyone who does not exist yet. And until we had life, we did not exist.

You deny this because the notion destroys your theory of having to "accept" a gift.

You deny that this life that we are currently living is not a gift because if you admitted the obvious it would destroy your original 'analogy' of : "An offer of a gift is not a gift but an offer. A gift is given freely with no strings attached. Many gifts are given and one need not accept them to actually receive them nor do they even need to know they have been given.

Take the gift of life for example, did you accept it as a baby? Did you even know it was a gift? Did you receive it anyway? "

The bible tells us all good things come from God,

Yes.

there are several gifts mentioned none of which require someone to actually accept them they just get them and once they have them they are thiers wether they want them or not.

Please give specific references. Thanks

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