What do we really know about the rapture theology?[open]

visionary · Jun 13, 2007

First some background information

During the 15th and 16th centuries, the church that was so dominate during the middle ages was shaken to its very core by powerful protests of reformers from within its own ranksJohn Hus, John Zwingly, Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. Appalled by the corruption in both theology and practice that had developed within the church through the centuries, these reformers boldly identified the church itself as the antichrist predicted in the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation.

Reeling from these serious and credible challenges to its theology and practices, the church convened the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's. This council explored new methodologies to counter the debilitating challenges of the Reformers which were undermining the church's credibility and authority in the public domain.

A major component of this "counter-reformation" was the publication of a commentary on the book of Revelation in 1690 by a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera. He proposed a method of interpretation called futurism. According to this view, the great prophecies of Daniel and Revelation did not apply to the Christian church through the ages, but were focused on the final seven years of history. In other words, the Bible's warning about the antichrist could not possibly apply to the church, but rather predicted the appearance of a lone and powerful evil person who would rule during earth's final years. http://www.rusearching.com/leftbehind/leftrapturehistory.htm

From what I understand it all started in 1830 with British evangelical cleric John Nelson Darby, who founded the Plymouth Brethren. He was the one who put the icing on the cake with the pre-trib rapture theory.

It received its major popularization through the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909, and its dispensations and script for the future based on the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:27-29.

Then fiction writings have exploded the concept throughout the faithful starting with the writings of Hal Lindsey (The Late Great Planet Earth, 1970) and Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye, co-authors of the mega-popular Left Behind series -- 12 books, well over 60 million copies -- of the last ten years.

It has moved into messianic circles like every other theology. So with this in mind... Let us search the scriptures to see if it is so.

Pre-trib rapture....messianic style

If the first four major events of the "New Testament Church" happened on the first four Jewish feasts, the next big event - the "Rapture" - should fall on the next scheduled feast - the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashanah, when God calls his people together. Again the symbolism is seemingly beyond coincidence as this is to be a day of regathering and rejoicing.

Post-trib rapture... I believe to be the eighth day of Shimini Atezeret

HaNotsri · Jun 13, 2007

I'll tell you what I know about rapture theology. I know I don't believe it.

ContentInHim · Jun 13, 2007

I know that as a charismatic Christian, I piled up books and lectures for my heathen friends to find when they missed me. As a believer in the feasts, I made sure these piles and letters were on my dining room table each Feast of Trumpets for the past 2 years. Now I feel pretty foolish for having fallen for this rubbish. Neither Noah nor Lot were lifted to heaven to escape judgment - rather they were protected and provided a way of escape on earth. That's what I'm anticipating now!

simchat_torah · Jun 13, 2007

Much of the "rapture" passages in the Bible are very esoteric and hard to take literally. But if in fact you want to take a literal stance, they would seem to refer to the regathering of Israel. Much of what the NT states parallels literary devices used in the Tenach when referencing the return of Israel to the motherland.

Interesting note: the word "rapture" does not appear in the bible. not once.

perrin275 · Jun 13, 2007

Yeshua said of That Day, "no man knows the day or the hour". Matthew 25:13. That is an acient reference to Rosh HaShannah (The Feast of Trumpets) 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 tells us it will be at the last trumpet. This is also a reference to Rosh HaShannah. Shavuot is the First trumpet, Rosh HaShannah is the Last, and Yom Kippur is the Great Trumpet. I believe it will be Rosh HaShannah.

chunkofcoal · Jun 13, 2007

Yes, Yeshua did say that no man knows the day or the hour, but couldn't that be on any Rosh Chodesh - New Moon?

Trumpets were to be blown at different times -

Num 10:9-10 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. (10) Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

Then again, will the day of His gladness be on an actual feast day or new moon?

Son 3:11 Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart.

Sephania · Jun 13, 2007

Does it really matter if we know the exact day and time, or does it matter more that we are ready?

We see Yeshua gave a few examples of his coming and what happened to those ( believers) that were not ready, one is the bridesmaids parable and the other is the found in the book of Mark where he says that we don't know when the 'Master of the house' ( if we are his temple , he is the master of that house, right?) comes, at sunset, or midnight, or cockcrow or morning , you don't want him to come and find you sleeping, so Stay alert and Watch!
Also this is prefaced by him speaking of his return with great power and glory and how the angels will gather together his chosen ( elect) people from the four winds, and from the ends of the earth............ ( Mark 13)

A_Pioneer · Jun 13, 2007

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
P. S.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

WolfBitnGodSmittn · Jun 13, 2007

yes and then we have 1 Cor 15:17-22 which tells us we are resurrected "AT HIS COMING"... it gets no plainer than this eh?

brachah · Jun 14, 2007

Pre-trib rapture....messianic style

If the first four major events of the "New Testament Church" happened on the first four Jewish feasts, the next big event - the "Rapture" - should fall on the next scheduled feast - the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashanah, when God calls his people together. Again the symbolism is seemingly beyond coincidence as this is to be a day of regathering and rejoicing.

- tks for this post.

visionary · Jun 15, 2007

Here is a hint...

De 31:10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles, 11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. 12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

prophectically this feast points to the time of the Lord to do certain things... "shadow of things to come"

Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden F154 thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire: 28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err. 29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

and

Job 34:20 In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand.

Do you know why they are troubled at night...

Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Talking about midnight reminds me of

Mt 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

With the wedding at Yom Kippur, it means that the Wedding Supper comes after.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

perrin275 · Jun 15, 2007

If u do research on the festivals of G-d and the terms used, u will find that Shavuot is called the first shofar and Rosh HaShanna is the Last. The Shofarot are refering to the ram that was sacrificed by Avraham. But since Yom Kippur is the Great Shofar, and the ram was a burnt offering, where was the Shofar to come from. It was said that G-d resurrected the ram.

Now this is just to explain the terms used. Its teaching that have been handed down by the Jews. Just like Acts 20.8 is a reference to the Havdalah ceremony that ends the Sabbath. If one doesnt know these things these verses dont have the same meaning. Just as Romans 3.1-2 tells us that G-d gave His Word to the Jews, there is a reason G-d chose the Jews and gave them His Torah. To teach the world G-d's will for us and His plan for all things.

chunkofcoal · Jun 15, 2007

visionary said:
Here is a hint...
prophectically this feast points to the time of the Lord to do certain things... "shadow of things to come" and Do you know why they are troubled at night... Talking about midnight reminds me of With the wedding at Yom Kippur, it means that the Wedding Supper comes after.

If the wedding is at Yom Kippur, then why is the Song of Solomon a spring song? Don't people usually think the song is about Christ and the church? :scratch:

Or is the wedding at Yom Kippur and love is only likened to spring? :scratch:

simchat_torah · Jun 15, 2007

What's up with all the adults using l33t sp34k on the forums lately?

torahgrandma · Jun 15, 2007

1Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Romans 8
33 Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!
34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also is raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession on our behalf.

The above passages demonstrate that as long as Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, He is interceding for us all, but once He leaves His position at the right hand the books of judgment will be closed, and those who have not accepted Him will no longer have the option. Even if there was a secret rapture as some teach, those left would have no chance to be saved, because one cannot go boldly before the throne of grace to obtain mercy if there is no mediator present, so it would be pointless. As the passages in Matthew 24:39 and Luke 17:29 clearly demonstrate, those left behind will perish, and there will be no more chances to repent. There is only one second coming.(Hebrew 9:27-28)

The scriptures make it clear that the body of Christ is only transformed once in the very end at the second coming. (Revelation 10:7, 1Cor 15:51-52) There will be no secret rapture before that time. The saints will be gathered on the last day (John 6:39-40), at the last trump (1 Cor 15:52), immediately after the Tribulation (Mat 24:29-31), when the heavens will be no more (2 Pet 3:10, Job 14:12).

Sephania · Jun 15, 2007

torahgrandma said:
1Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Romans 8
33 Who will bring any charge against God's elect? God is the One justifying!
34 Who is he condemning? It is Christ who has died, but rather also is raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession on our behalf.

The above passages demonstrate that as long as Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, He is interceding for us all, but once He leaves His position at the right hand the books of judgment be closed, and those who have not accepted Him will no longer have the option. Even if there was a secret rapture as some teach, those left would have no chance to be saved, because one cannot go boldly before the throne of grace to obtain mercy if there is no mediator present, so it would be pointless. As the passages in Matthew 24:39 and Luke 17:29 clearly demonstrate, those left behind will perish, and there will be no more chances to repent. There is only one second coming.(Hebrew 9:27-28)

The scriptures make it clear that the body of Christ is only transformed once in the very end at the second coming. (Revelation 10:7, 1Cor 15:51-52) There will be no secret rapture before that time. The saints will be gathered on the last day (John 6:39-40), at the last trump (1 Cor 15:52), immediately after the Tribulation (Mat 24:29-31), when the heavens will be no more (2 Pet 3:10, Job 14:12).

Good Points

Simon_Templar · Jun 15, 2007

You have to separate "rapture" from "pre-trib rapture" theology. They are two different things.

Pre-trib rapture is just one view that involves the idea of the rapture.

Post-trib also believes in a rapture but it is significantly different in concept than the rapture of the pre-trib.

In the post-trib view the rapture is a gathering of the saints to welcome Jesus back to Jerusalem.

In the ancient world it was a common practice to line the streets leading up to a city in a welcome procession whenever a ruler or leader came to visit the city. This is what occured at the "triumphal entry" when Jesus came to Jerusalem just before the crucifixion.

In greek this was refered to as apantesis (sp?) which describes the people going out of the city to meet the ruler on the road and welcome him back in to the city.
This word is what Paul used to describe the event when the saints rise to "meet" Jesus in the air.

The same event is described in Matthew by Jesus himself when he says that his angels will gather his elect from the four corners of the world and bring them to Jerusalem.

All the saints, including the dead who will be resurrected at this time, will be gathered to Jerusalem to welcome Christ and witness his final triumphal entry into Jerusalem.

Since the feasts have been mentioned, I would point out that this probably will occur on the feast of trumpets which coincides not specifically to the rapture, but actually to the Lord's coming.

Remember that the moon was symbolic of Messiah because it reflects the glory of the sun (symbolicaly the glory of God). Trumpets is the only feast which occurs at the new moon, and it was preceeded by a watch in which men had to stand anxiously looking for the appearence of the moon. When the moon was sighted then trumpets began. The blowing of trumpets, corresponding to the trumpet call of Christ's return.

All the people being gathered to worship, as they will be when Christ returns. At the trump of God we shall all be gathered, just as on the feast of trumpets.

Then the days of awe which stretch out to Yom Kippur mark the last days people have while God prepares judgement. On Yom Kippur Jesus will sit in judgement in Jerusalem.

Tabernacles will probably mark the 'wedding celebration' of the lamb, and Hannukah will mark the beginning of the millenium when we will no longer need the sun nor the moon for God himself will be our light, and all that was tainted by the beast and his abomination is cleansed and restored.

visionary · Jun 15, 2007

I see the feast of trumpets as the time of the two witnesses, after all they are needed to determine the time of the new moon. There are many things that trumpets are used for.... the inaugeration, wedding announcement, war, assembly call, moving the congregation etc...The symbolism of this festival is something of a mystery, a sort of Bible riddle begging to be solved. The Bible grants us only two sparse verses to explain the festival:

Leviticus 23:23,24 In the seventh month, on first day of the month, it will be for you a sabbath, a trumpet blast memorial, a sacred assembly. 24 All regular work you shall not do, and you shall cause to be brought near to the LORD an offering made by fire.

In discussing the Day of Atonement it is helpful to accurately define the word "Atonement." Atonement does not mean forgiveness of sin. It is from the Hebrew word kaphar which means, "covering". The Hebrew word kippur is said to have been related to the verb kaphar which apparently had its origins in "covering over with pitch (kopher)". At the moment the atonement was made on the Day of Atonement, those being atoned for were sinless and blameless before G-d. The congregation of believers (kehilat) in the Messiah is being presented before G-d without spot or blemish (Ephesians 5:27) because of the blood of Yeshua (1 Peter 1:19).

Jewish wedding tradition dictates that the bride and groom remain in the wedding chamber for seven nights. Then the couple emerge for the wedding banquet. Joel 2:14 says "let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber".

In Joel 2:17 it is written:

Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar and let them say, Spare Thy people, O Lord, and give not Thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

This speaks of an event that takes place when the High priest is ministering in the Holy of Holies.

It is common practice to have the wedding supper after the consummation ... couldn't find the ancient custom but did find a modern one.
http://www.foreverwed.com/Jewish/practicaljwc.htm

Sephania · Jun 15, 2007

good stuff Vis!

What I always consider is that the year is determined by the first month, which is Nissan, but called Aviv in the Torah. Aviv means green ear, which was meant that the barley was green, and it was ready for harvest and could be brought to the Temple for the first fruits offering. Now you can't use last years, so it has to be fresh and that is determined by HaShem himself, as he is the provider of rain, and the rain prayed for in the winter is what grows the barley.

If rain is held back, then it doesn't grow properly. The first day of the first month is determined by the state of the barley. Thus all the months following it. So the seventh month in some years may just not be the seventh month if this determination is not used.

THAT may be the reason Yeshua said no MAN knows the time, just as the start of a new month isn't determined until two witnesses see the new moon, this also is set by the barley harvest. So there could be two factors determining when this ultimate Yom Teruah happens.

brachah · Jun 16, 2007

are u sure u r not talking abt 2 things?

1) 1 cor 15;52 - rapture into the air
2) jesus comes to earth: resurrection

What do we really know about the rapture theology?[open]

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