Evolution questions for the science people

Chalnoth

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You don't seem to have much respect for people who can believe things that they do not see.

I know I don't. I have much more respect for people who are willing to admit that they are wrong when presented evidence of such. Blind faith, that is, belief in something without evidence, is upheld as a virtue in the Bible. But I, and many other atheists, find it to be abhorrent, an insult to human dignity.

Strong belief without evidence leads to, "I'm right and you're wrong and nothing you could say or do could ever convince me wrong," mentality. Is it any surprise that we see so much violence surrounded by religion today?
 
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Aron-Ra

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You don't seem to have much respect for people who can believe things that they do not see.
Admittedly I don't, and I suppose I should apologize for that. But we're not talking about believing in something like air, which is invisible yet still demonstrably real. Nor are we talking about considering fanciful things that might be true, but that can't be qualified or quantified in any verifiable way. No, you're talking about actively maintaining a positive belief in something that is impossible according to everything we know about anything at all, and which would still be illogical even if it were possible, and which we're expected to believe for literally no defensible reason whatsoever, and solely on the word of the least credible people possible. Worse, we're expected to retain and defend that belief even when we know better on several levels. That's why I don't respect faith-based beliefs. Please understand though that my problem isn't with what you believe, but with why you believe it. I'm not against gods; I'm against faith.
I was speaking mainly from my own relationship with God. Also, from how people have told me that God has worked in their lives.
I was a big Beatles fan when I was a kid, and I read a lot of their lead guitarist's testimonials to his "personal relationship" with his god, Lord Krishna.


"If there's a God, I want to see Him. It's pointless to believe in something without proof, and Krishna Consciousness and meditation are methods where you can actually obtain GOD preception. You can actually see God, and Hear Him, play with Him. It might sound crazy, but He is actually there, actually with you."
--George Harrison

Now how can he and you each have a "personal relationship" with two different universe-creating gods which can't both exist at the same time?

Answer that in the apologetics forum, if you don't mind. Because this thread is for science, and I don't want to derail it.
 
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Chilldogg77

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Okay, thanks for the education on the word "theory," everyone, consider me among the educated in that respect.
And TooCurious, that is interesting about the fruit flies. So a new species that couldn't interbreed with the other fruit flies developed in a laboratory?

Rather, gradually over time, the shape of the bodies of birdlike creatures became more aerodynamic, their bones became lighter, and the muscles of their wings and shoulders became stronger.
Yes, this is what I find so hard to believe! Why did they become more aerodynamic, why did their bones become lighter, why did they develop large wings and feathers that let them fly? I'm not saying it's impossible, but just that it is very strange that these changes would happen for other reasons that have nothing to do with flight, but coincidentally allowed their descendants to fly.
Explain to me, then, the ostrich, the emu, the cassowary, the kiwi.
The fact that some birds can't fly can show that bird characteristics besides flying are good for survival, but I don't think that detracts much from the strangeness of birds developing in a way that eventually led to flight for reasons that had nothing to do with flight.
They probably started off by gliding.
Is there any fossil evidence of this? And once again, it is genetic mutations that led to a bird being able to glide, and more genetic mutations (how many?!) that led to a bird being able to fly. I can see how such mutations would help survival and passing on descendants if they did happen, but it just doesn't seem likely to me that they would happen without Help.
*shrug* When I step back and look at the whole process, it strikes me as so obvious as to be almost necessary, given the right conditions.
The right conditions don't lead to genetic mutations. I have a hard time with the concept of so many convenient/beneficial genetic mutations leading to amazing results, especially given their rarity in the observed world.
Numbers aren't everything. We exploit resources they cannot.
Okay, but can a 4 celled organism exploit resources that a one or two celled organism cannot? Mutations of these simple organisms allowed more and more exploitation of resources until there were complex organisms?

This has been educational, especially about speciation and the scientific use of the word theory. Now I seem to have moved on to birds and genetic mutations!
 
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Chilldogg77

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I know I don't. I have much more respect for people who are willing to admit that they are wrong when presented evidence of such.
What evidence?
Nor are we talking about considering fanciful things that might be true, but that can't be qualified or quantified in any verifiable way. No, you're talking about actively maintaining a positive belief in something that is impossible according to everything we know about anything at all, and which would still be illogical even if it were possible, and which we're expected to believe for literally no defensible reason whatsoever, and solely on the word of the least credible people possible.
I think that statements needs a whole lot of backing up. Put it on the apologetics thread and let me know if you want to.
Please understand though that my problem isn't with what you believe, but with why you believe it. I'm not against gods; I'm against faith.
I believe it because of logic and what I have observed, learned, and experienced. Faith is not against reason. When I talk about faith in God, I mean it more like having faith in your best friend to come through for you.
Now how can he and you each have a "personal relationship" with two different universe-creating gods which can't both exist at the same time?
I didn't mention that as evidence that God exists, I was just trying to answer your question of whether I actually "assumed" that was the way God worked. What I meant was, that's been my experience.
 
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Tynan

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When I talk about faith in God, I mean it more like having faith in your best friend to come through for you.


Would this be better termed as 'hope' - 'I hope my friend comes through for me' - I cannot, with inerrancy, know future events, so I 'hope' he comes through - this would lead to 'I hope god exists' a view even an atheist like myself can understand and even subscribe to.
 
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TooCurious

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And TooCurious, that is interesting about the fruit flies. So a new species that couldn't interbreed with the other fruit flies developed in a laboratory?

Yup.

Chilldogg77 said:
Yes, this is what I find so hard to believe! Why did they become more aerodynamic, why did their bones become lighter, why did they develop large wings and feathers that let them fly?

Feathers are useful for insulation, to retain body heat. Birds are endothermic, where reptiles are exothermic. It makes a great deal of sense that birds would have developed some form of outer covering that would trap air close to the skin and help them retain heat. Lighter bones, and the ensuing decrease in weight, can help with running as well as flight. Consider the ostrich again--it's a fast runner. And if flight did start with gliding, as I suggested, powerful wing and shoulder muscles would be useful there.

Chilldogg77 said:
I'm not saying it's impossible, but just that it is very strange that these changes would happen for other reasons that have nothing to do with flight, but coincidentally allowed their descendants to fly.

There's no coincidence about it; flight simply wouldn't have happened without those previous adaptations, and we'd be debating right now about why birds are such good swimmers or something instead.

Chilldogg77 said:
The fact that some birds can't fly can show that bird characteristics besides flying are good for survival, but I don't think that detracts much from the strangeness of birds developing in a way that eventually led to flight for reasons that had nothing to do with flight.

The simple fact is, evolution doesn't know where it's going until it gets there. There was no "road to flight." After all, there's no one, single way to fly in nature. Birds fly one way, insects fly a completely different way, bats fly another way, and hummingbirds, while still a type of bird, fly in a way so different that I don't think we're entirely certain why it works.

Chilldogg77 said:
Is there any fossil evidence of this?

Honestly, I'm not an evolutionary biologist, or a paleontologist. I majored in English. If you want specific details of the progression, I think there are people here who can help you with that.

Off the top of my head, though, there is the Archaeopteryx (which is as fun to spell as it is to study! :D ), a reptile-like creature with feathers, and a body structure similar to a bird. Did it fly? Possibly. Remember: there were reptiles during the time of the dinosaurs that flew, as well. The pterodactyl (another fun word!), for instance.

Chilldogg77 said:
And once again, it is genetic mutations that led to a bird being able to glide, and more genetic mutations (how many?!) that led to a bird being able to fly. I can see how such mutations would help survival and passing on descendants if they did happen, but it just doesn't seem likely to me that they would happen without Help.

Bear in mind the time scale we're dealing with. Tens of millions of years stand between the modern day and the time of the dinosaurs, the ancestors of birds.

Chilldogg77 said:
The right conditions don't lead to genetic mutations.

Transcription errors lead to geneteic mutations. The right conditions select for those mutations.

Chilldogg77 said:
I have a hard time with the concept of so many convenient/beneficial genetic mutations leading to amazing results, especially given their rarity in the observed world.

A mutation is only beneficial in the right environmental context. Pure white fur is a huge advantage in a snowy climate, but much less so in a verdant forest. And, mutations are rare?

Chilldogg77 said:
Okay, but can a 4 celled organism exploit resources that a one or two celled organism cannot? Mutations of these simple organisms allowed more and more exploitation of resources until there were complex organisms?

Multicellular organisms can certainly exploit resources that single-celled organisms can't; this is especially true when you reach a level of complexity where different groups of cells form different tissues that perform different functions.

Chilldogg77 said:
This has been educational, especially about speciation and the scientific use of the word theory. Now I seem to have moved on to birds and genetic mutations!

Fun! :)
 
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Aron-Ra

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Yes, this is what I find so hard to believe! Why did they become more aerodynamic, why did their bones become lighter,
Hollow bones also allowed some dinos to acheive enormous size without sacrificing support strength. Smaller ones got more speed the same way, these are the ones which beget birds.
why did they develop large wings and feathers that let them fly?
The feathers were for insulation, and evolved from something similar to down.
Oviraptor_nest.jpg

Initially, their wings were small, and used for incubating larger broods. This is a much greater advantage in terms of selection than flight itself.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but just that it is very strange that these changes would happen for other reasons that have nothing to do with flight, but coincidentally allowed their descendants to fly.
The entire sequence has been traced now, from light hair-like down and grasping 'maniraptor' hands to asymetric flight feathers and flight strokes.
The fact that some birds can't fly can show that bird characteristics besides flying are good for survival, but I don't think that detracts much from the strangeness of birds developing in a way that eventually led to flight for reasons that had nothing to do with flight.
They probably started off by gliding.
Is there any fossil evidence of this?
Yes, Microraptor gui, a remarkeable four-winged dinosaur which could only have glided.
microraptor.gif

As the forward wings became more adept, the landing wings were no longer needed, and true flight was possible.
And once again, it is genetic mutations that led to a bird being able to glide, and more genetic mutations (how many?!) that led to a bird being able to fly.
We humans have an average of 156 mutations per zygote. Now add that up in a series of short-lived generations over say eighty million years.
I can see how such mutations would help survival and passing on descendants if they did happen, but it just doesn't seem likely to me that they would happen without Help.
There evidently wasn't any help needed.
The right conditions don't lead to genetic mutations. I have a hard time with the concept of so many convenient/beneficial genetic mutations leading to amazing results, especially given their rarity in the observed world.
Bare in mind that the much larger proportion of mutations are neutral or detrimental. Over time, the odd one with an advantage will become dominant. Its an inescapable law of population genetics.
Okay, but can a 4 celled organism exploit resources that a one or two celled organism cannot?
The move to multicellular forms wasn't like that. It apparently began as communal forms of independant cells becoming dependant on each other. Some slime moulds like Dictyostelium discoideum live as millions of jointly-cooperative amaobic foms which amass themselves to function as a single entity.
http://cosmos.bot.kyoto-u.ac.jp/csm/movies2/Dpoly_agg_1_s.avi
Mutations of these simple organisms allowed more and more exploitation of resources until there were complex organisms?
Inevitably.
 
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Hydra009

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If what you're saying is correct, okay. But the idea that the Earth orbits the sun is still a theory?
Yes. A scientific theory, no matter how well supported, never becomes anything other than a scientific theory. Germ theory is another good example of that. You can look in a microscope and see bacteria affect human cells in a way that would cause disease in a human but germ theory is still germ theory - it never graduates to germ fact or germ law. You can take a photo of an atom (not a regular photo though, atoms are too small - you'd need an electron microscope or similarly sensitive imaging method) and atomic theory would remain a theory. You could track continental plate movement via GPS and plate tectonics would still be a theory.

Isn't it a fact that started off as a theory?
I suppose you could say that the heliocentric model is factual in the sense that it is so well supported that it would be absurd to say that the Earth does not orbit the sun, but it is still a theory. The same thing is true of the theory of evolution - you can get bacteria to evolve novel flagella via selection pressure, yet evolution is still a theory. One can support darwinian evolution with evidence to the point that it's absurd to withhold acceptance, but it is still a theory.
 
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Tiberius

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Are there any living species that scientists believe are the direct ancestors of other living species? Macro-evolution works by a beneficial genetic mutation that gets passed along to the offspring, right? But I would think that in at least some cases the original species would not be wiped out by the species with the genetic mutation. If no living species is the direct ancestor of another living species, I see this as a big problem, because when you consider the great number of species, mathematically, not every single original species would die out. Can scientists prove with genetic testing if one species is the ancestor of another?

I may be covering what other people have said, as I have not read through this thread before replying...

Animals evolve to adapt to their environment. If the environment doesn't chage, then the animal will not evolve. After all, if the animal is well suited to the environment it lives in, then it doesn't need to change.

To specify, the change is caused by evironmental pressure. For example, a wolly mammoth in a tropical rainforest will be under pressure because the environment is different to that which the mammoth is adapted for. Thus variations in the mammoth population will be either well suited or not suited to the environment. Over time (if we could live long enough) we would see the mammoths lose their wolly coat and become adapted to life in the tropics. A tropical mammoth, if you will. This is a very simplified version of how evolution works to change one species into another.

To use this analofgy to answer your question, it is very rare to find an animal and a species that evolved from it both alive today. This is because of the environmental changes that caused the animal to change. We wouldn't see the wolly mammoth of the above example living with the adapted tropical mammoth, because the tropical mammoth (being better adapted to survive in the tropical environment) has competed with the wooly mammoth and driven it to extinction.

This happens in nature very often. When we look at a single environment, we don't really see different species of animals that compete for the same resources. One species will usually compete with the other and drive them to extinction. We can see similar species in similar environments, but they do not live near each other. An example of this is the emu and the ostrich. Both are very similar looking large flightless birds that live in arid areas, but the ostrich is native to Africa while the emu is native to Australia.

Regarding your question about whether species alive today are related from species that lived in the past and are now extinct, the fossil record certainly does show how animal species have developed. A good example is the evolution of the horse. The Wiki article on it explains it in much better detail than I can in this post.

Another problem I have is that we have never seen a beneficial macro genetic mutation. How many years should we wait without seeing this before we start to seriously doubt the theory? When we consider the rate of change from single celled organisms to humans and lions, when would statistically expect to see this? Let's give a starting date on when our observation of the environment was sufficient to expect to see this and count from then. Are we talking 200 more years? 500? I don't know, I'm looking for someone to tell me.

The changes that occur in evolution may take a small amount of time geologically speaking, but it is still many centuries at the very least. However, we have seen some examples of evolution, such as bacteria which have developed the ability to break down and gain nutrients from compounds which only apeared due to industrial activity by man.

That brings me to my next question. Is evolution falsifiable or verifiable as a theory? Newton's theories are now laws, relativity is not a law instead of a theory, so what findings would make evolution make that leap? And what findings would make scientists reject the theory?

yes, evolution, like any good scientific theory is easily falsifiable. A 600 million year old fossil rabbit would do the job quite nicely.

What do you think about the Pre-Cambian (I think that's the right term) explosion?

You are refering to the Cambrian Explosion. This was a sudden appearance in the fossil record of a large number of different animal types where there had previously been very few. it is easy to interpret this as the sudden appearance of a large amount of life on the planet, but an examination of the fossil record will show a different story.

When we look at the fossils found before the explosion, we see they are invertebrates such as jellyfish and other animals which are not fossilised easily. This means that there will be less fossils of these animals, even though they may have been quite common. After the explosion, animals had developed body structures that were more easily fossilised, meaning it was easier for them to become fossilised, thus fossils of them are more common, even though the actual populations of animals at the time may not have changed dramatically.


In short, the Cambrian explosion doesn't reflect an increase in the amount of life present, it reflects an increase in the amount of life that could be easily fossilised.
 
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Chalnoth

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Animals evolve to adapt to their environment. If the environment doesn't chage, then the animal will not evolve. After all, if the animal is well suited to the environment it lives in, then it doesn't need to change.
Well, no, that's actually not the case. Populations evolve regardless. But that evolution does not occur at the same rate at all times. Sometimes it is slow, but it never stops.
 
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Split Rock

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There are examples of speciation in progress called Ring species. Ring Species are made up of adjacent populations that form a ring are able to interbreed with the one next to them. however, the two species meeting at the ends of the "ring" cannot interbreed.

Examples include the Greenish Warbler and the Ensatina salamander

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.html

That's interesting! That's been proven with genetics? But they can still breed with each other. Any examples of species that can't?

If they can interbreed, they are separate species. How would you describe a Ring species in that case? non-adjacent populations cannot interbreed, but adjacent ones can. Those at the very end cannot, but by applying the definition to adjacent populations, you will expand the "species" out to the two end populations, which cannot be species, since they cannot interbred. Yet, they are connected in ability to interbred via the intermediate populations. The only explaination is that are all decended from an ancesteral population that was made up of memebers that could all interbred.
 
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Loudmouth

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Okay, I'll try to explain what I mean a little better. Some of you have told me that all species are always evolving at about the same rate. But I thought that cockroaches, and crocodiles, for example, have existed in basically the same form for longer than other species. And why would all species evolve at the same rate? If some have always thrived, why would they evolve?

Change may happen at a different rate, but all are subject to the same mechanisms of mutation and selection. If a species is well adapted to the environment they find themselves in then they will be subject to stabilizing selection. This is why we still have bacteria around. They are perhaps the most highly adapted group of organisms on the planet.

Here's an example of what I mean. A crocodile has a genetic mutation, breeds and the genetic mutation is passed on, the mutation is continually passed on through generations (is that how it works?), that population leaves and goes to a different environment, there are more genetic mutations that are succesfully passed on in the new population, so they become a different species in a different location than the crocodiles. But the crocodiles haven't evolved much because they continued to thrive in the same environment they were in. Thus crocodiles would be the direct ancestor of the new species. Has that scenario ever happened? If it did, wouldn't that prove evolution?

One would not be the direct ancestor of another. They would be "cousins" as it were. Each population shares a common ancestor just as you and your cousins share grandparents, your common ancestor. The amount of change that happens in each lineage does not erase the fact that they are equidistant from the common ancestor.

Ok, macro and micro. I understand that micro refers to say breeds of dogs, bacteria, what Darwin observed, changes within the same species. And macro refers to changes that have resulted in different species. I understand it's always a very gradual process. I guess I mean something that looks like it could lead to a new species.

Macroevolution is the amount of change that occurs above the level of species. Microevolution is change or variation that occurs within a species. For all intents and purposes, macroevolution is the accumulated differences seen in two lineages that share common ancestry. A good example is the crocodile example you gave above. The changes that accumulate within the transported species is microevolution while the differences between the two species is considered macroevolution.

I understand that there is a whole lot of evidence, and that most scientists who know a lot more than I do believe in it. But when I step back from it and try to look at it without any bias, as if I'd never heard anything about it, the idea that enough beneficial genetic mutations has occurred to go from one celled organisms to all the life on this planet seems rediculous.

You seem to forget that you started life as a single cell.

Especially when the simple organisms we have are doing better in terms of numbers than the more complex organisms.

Each has their niche, and both strategies work.



I acknowledge there is a lot of evidence for evolution, but when I think about it without God in the picture it makes no sense. With God, birds could evolve with flight in mind, and all the things I find so unlikely could happen. And this would explain all the genetic and archeological evidence for it. I find God likes to work gradually in people's lives, but he also likes to let them know it is Him. So I think it would make sense that he would create using evolution, but in such a way that if you look closely, you can tell it was Him.

That is intriguing from a philosophical perspective, but it falls short of scientific rigor.
 
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