CalgaryAB

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Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and Im wanting to discuss the 'ex gay' topic with anyone who has an opinion about it either for or against it.

I've had several years of experience in the ex gay movement (im no longer involved in it) and Im looking for others to talk about it with.

I will post more details about my thoughts and experience once i know if anyone here is actually interested in having the discussion.

Thanks
 

CalgaryAB

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I watched a video a few months back called "Its not gay". Seeing some of the anger that these 'ex gay' guys have towards the gay community and the gay rights movement made me think. I've never heard an ex-gay express any sort of appreciation for the freedom that gay activists have provided for them. If it werent for the gay rights movement these guys wouldnt have the freedom they do now to be as open about their pasts. All they ever seem to do is demonize other gay people and the advancement of gay rights.

I remember back a few years ago I used to be just like them. I had become so slanted in my view of homosexuality that I had a hate on for the gay community. I blamed homosexuality and the gay community for much of the unhappiness I was experiencing in life at the time.

For most of my 20s I lived a life filled with compulsive sexual behavior and I could never figure out why I was so unhappy in life. I blamed my unhappiness on being gay and not being a practicing christian anymore. After several years of trying to be a Christian again (even went to Bible college) and seeking professional help to "change" my sexual orientation, Ive come to realize that it wasnt my lack of faith or my sexuality that had led to my unhappiness. It was my addiction to sex and all the underlying character defects that led to my addiction.

Im a member of Sex Addicts Anonymous, and have been sober (with some relapses) for over a year now and life is completely different. Ive been in a stable, loving (same-sex) relationship for over a year, and I no longer experience the emptiness and unhappiness that plagued the first 7 years of my 20's.

My reason for giving all this personal background information is that Ive heard a lot of 'ex-gays' talk about the promiscuous sex they were involved in. I wonder how much of their drive to leave the "gay lifestyle" really just comes from the unhappiness they feel living a life of promiscuity. I know that other factors such as religious convictions also play a major role. I just dont hear a lot from 'ex gays' who were ever involved in long term, happy and loving same-sex relationships.
 
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scraparcs

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It does seem like all this is so polarized that it's hard to find a place somewhere in the middle. It's like you're demonized if you don't repudiate and attack everything gay or on the other hand be promiscuous and over the top.

Being openly gay is still a very difficult thing. There is still discrimination and dislike of those who are gay. There's then a supportive community that pushes back -- embraces all things that have to do with same-sex sex, but that makes it look like they are worshipping gay sex.

I think you have a very wise approach in trying to find a middle. I just don't see that there is much support by anyone for those who do try to find the middle ground. Those in the middle are selling out by those who worship gay sex, and they are destroying marriage by those on the other side.

I wonder how there could be more support for those in the middle who quietly live their lives.
 
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Spherical Time

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I don't support the ex-gay movement, but I've never been involved with it.

I don't know if I can say much more than that.

I wish there were better studies of reparitive therapy, but due to the heavily radicalized views on both sides I don't see much chance of that.
 
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I went to an ex-gay gathering once out of curiosity.

One thing I noticed was that everyboddy there kept repeating that they used to be gay but werent anymore. Almost like they were trying to convince themselves and each other.

I have never believed that the ex-gay movement had any point at all. You read the testimonials online and its like reading the same story over and over AND OVER just with a few different words here and there. None of it sounds genuine.

Your mind can convince you of many many things, but eventually reality smacks you upside the head and it isnt pretty when that happens
 
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Steezie

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I think that gender attraction can probably change over time for some people but not as a result of being forced.

I find it odd and rather telling that these ex-gay organizations need to consistently tell everyone how straight they are now and how evil being gay is.
I do find that rather interesting, Ive never had an ex-gay say "Its ok to be gay, I just didnt want to".

But to be fair, you usually dont try and change something unless you think its wrong.
 
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chalice_thunder

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I watched a video a few months back called "Its not gay". Seeing some of the anger that these 'ex gay' guys have towards the gay community and the gay rights movement made me think. I've never heard an ex-gay express any sort of appreciation for the freedom that gay activists have provided for them. If it werent for the gay rights movement these guys wouldnt have the freedom they do now to be as open about their pasts. All they ever seem to do is demonize other gay people and the advancement of gay rights.

I remember back a few years ago I used to be just like them. I had become so slanted in my view of homosexuality that I had a hate on for the gay community. I blamed homosexuality and the gay community for much of the unhappiness I was experiencing in life at the time.

For most of my 20s I lived a life filled with compulsive sexual behavior and I could never figure out why I was so unhappy in life. I blamed my unhappiness on being gay and not being a practicing christian anymore. After several years of trying to be a Christian again (even went to Bible college) and seeking professional help to "change" my sexual orientation, Ive come to realize that it wasnt my lack of faith or my sexuality that had led to my unhappiness. It was my addiction to sex and all the underlying character defects that led to my addiction.

Im a member of Sex Addicts Anonymous, and have been sober (with some relapses) for over a year now and life is completely different. Ive been in a stable, loving (same-sex) relationship for over a year, and I no longer experience the emptiness and unhappiness that plagued the first 7 years of my 20's.

My reason for giving all this personal background information is that Ive heard a lot of 'ex-gays' talk about the promiscuous sex they were involved in. I wonder how much of their drive to leave the "gay lifestyle" really just comes from the unhappiness they feel living a life of promiscuity. I know that other factors such as religious convictions also play a major role. I just dont hear a lot from 'ex gays' who were ever involved in long term, happy and loving same-sex relationships.

First - thank you for sharing your story. You've been through a lot, and you have come through it stronger, it appears. :thumbsup:

Second - congratulations on finding a stable relationship. May you both find deep blessing in each other's company. :hug:

Third - happy belated birthday! :clap:
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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I think 'ex-gay' prgrammes are a form of psychological abuse, and would like to see moves towards banning them, at least for minors. It sickens me that some parents send their children to such groups, and I think it is tantamount to serious and criminal child abuse. I would, quite frankly, question their fitness to raise children if they would consier putting their kids in the hands of such 'ministries'.

I do not think there exist any 'ex-gays' whatsoever. They are, on the whole, victims of being lied to and mentally tortured to the point that they so effectively lie to themselves that they actually believe the trash they speak.

That these groups prey on the vulnerable only makes it all the more appalling. As you said, those that are taken in by the 'ex-gay' 'ministries' are not people that have found happy and stable same-sex relationships. Those that propogate these lies would not have us believe that such a thing exists. So they prey on people who are not secure with their sexuality and have not found happiness within it.

The 'ex-gays' hate gay people so much partly because they have been lied to about who gay people are (promiscuous, diseased perverts) as opposed to being given the reality of a diverse group, most of whom are decent individuals looking for serious relationships. Also, they know that they are still gay and have to overcompensate for their own homosexuality by denigrating others for the same.

:mad: [/rant]

I'm sorry to hear you had to go through all of that, and I'm glad that you've overcome it all and found happiness. :hug:

peace
 
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CalgaryAB

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Thanks everyone for your replies and your kind words and support.

I really dont know what to make of the ex gay thing anymore. When I first started reparative therapy I thought that I would experience a complete transformation. As time has gone on and I've learned more about ex gays I no longer believe that complete transformation is possible, or at least its not very common.

One of the leaders of my living waters program (a group therapy program to help people "heal" their sexual orientation) had said that his sexual orientation had changed, but another time he said that he couldnt go to the mall during the stampede (our rodeo) because of all the guys in wranglers.

I do think that some gay people over react to the whole idea of change. In my experience their knee jerk reation has more to do with fear of undermining their 'gay identity' and the gay rights movement then it has to do with truth.

Growing up I had the reparative therapists textbook case of a homosexuals childhood. A distant father and a dominant mother. So when I first started reading ex gay books a lot of it really hit home for me. But Ive also come to know other gay people who didnt have childhoods like mine and whos family dynamic doesnt fit the reparative therapy model.

One of the pillars of reparative therapy is that a person seeking change has to develop non sexual, same sex relationships. They say that part of the reason why people are gay is that they dont identify properly with the same sex, they have no internalized sense of security in their own gender. I wonder about this point.

Growing up I did play dolls with my sister, but I was always the one who 'drove' the corvette because I was the boy (i guess i was a little sexist back then, sorry ladies), and when we played 'my little ponnies' my ponnies were always 'boy' ponnies....or so I would pretend. However my favorite toys were Transformers and GI Joe. I loved playing guns and riding bikes with the other boys in the neighborhood. I played football in Jr High. All throughout my childhood all of my best friends were other boys, I had a few female friends, but the vast amount of my time was spent with my male buddies.

I dont know what Im supposed to experience now as an adult that I didnt experience as a child.

I know of guys who were professional football players in the NFL, and I think if these guys can spend their whole lives commited to a very masculine team sport like football and still be gay...what hope is there for me?

Maybe Im not looking at the bigger picture here. Perhaps its possible to be a player in the NFL and still lack some sort of internal sense of your masculinity and be attracted to the same sex. Who knows?

If we aren't born this way, then my best guess at this point is that something goes 'wrong' during our development as children where we fail to secure some sort of internalized sense of our gender. Perhaps we view members of the same sex as being different in some way then ourselves. Or perhaps on some deep level we dont feel masculine or feminine, and somehow we erotisize our own gender in order compensate.

I think this is possible, but I think that reparative therapists place to much emphasis on the relationship with the same-sex parent. A lot of boys grow up with lousy fathers and they arent gay. My partner has a very kind, loving and affectionate father...not like mine was at all.

Anyways this is all just food for thought. I look forward to hearing your replies :)

Thanks

CalgaryAB
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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One of the leaders of my living waters program (a group therapy program to help people "heal" their sexual orientation) had said that his sexual orientation had changed, but another time he said that he couldnt go to the mall during the stampede (our rodeo) because of all the guys in wranglers.

Exactly. And I hardly think that sort of supression is healthy. Surely if he had accepted his sexuality and had loving relationships his attitude would have been much healthier. It seems to me that such supression is not only deeply harmful but leads to something much worse than that which it tries to stop: obsession. If he accepts his sexuality then he can be himself, a guy who likes all sorts of different things and happens to be gay. Otherwise, the normal and natural thing he forbids himself can become the obsession around which his life revolves, and that type of sexuality, gay, straight or bisexual is harmful.

I do think that some gay people over react to the whole idea of change. In my experience their knee jerk reation has more to do with fear of undermining their 'gay identity' and the gay rights movement then it has to do with truth.

I do agree that that might be a factor, but I think it's actually good that gay people want to protect their sexual identity. Personally, I genuinely believe that the 'therapy' can be very pscyhologically harmful. That is why I am against it. If I thought there was any truth in 'ex-gay' 'therapy' then I would probably take part in it myself. But there isn't. There is no way to change sexuality, and in light of that I am just happy with who I am.

I think for many gay people, the 'ex-gay' ministry represents the extreme of a sort of psychological self-mutilation that they suffered themselves for a time. Many will have gone through some psychological distress when they realised they were gay, because of society's denigration of the gay community. And so it deeply disturbs and upsets them that others are going through the same but to a greater extent.

I know of guys who were professional football players in the NFL, and I think if these guys can spend their whole lives commited to a very masculine team sport like football and still be gay...what hope is there for me?

Well, I don't think it is at all fair to say that masculinity and heterosexuality are synonymous, or even significantly more related than masculinity and homosexuality. If we're going to talk about masculinity in terms of testosterone, then studies done in, IIRC, the 70s, where gay men were given extra testosterone found that this simply increased their sex drive and they were even more attracted to other men. There are a lot of 'masculine' gay men, and a lot of 'effeminate' straight men.

Maybe Im not looking at the bigger picture here. Perhaps its possible to be a player in the NFL and still lack some sort of internal sense of your masculinity and be attracted to the same sex. Who knows?

Why can't you have an internal sense of your masculinity and be gay?

If we aren't born this way, then my best guess at this point is that something goes 'wrong' during our development as children where we fail to secure some sort of internalized sense of our gender.

Sorry to keep flogging the horse, but why on earth is something necessarily 'wrong'? Aside from the fact that some studies suggest conditions in the uterus can increase chances of homosexuality anyway, if it is due to psychosexual development then that doesn't mean it is some sort of mental illness or defect.

peace
 
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Thanks everyone for your replies and your kind words and support.

I really dont know what to make of the ex gay thing anymore. When I first started reparative therapy I thought that I would experience a complete transformation. As time has gone on and I've learned more about ex gays I no longer believe that complete transformation is possible, or at least its not very common.

One of the leaders of my living waters program (a group therapy program to help people "heal" their sexual orientation) had said that his sexual orientation had changed, but another time he said that he couldnt go to the mall during the stampede (our rodeo) because of all the guys in wranglers.

I do think that some gay people over react to the whole idea of change. In my experience their knee jerk reation has more to do with fear of undermining their 'gay identity' and the gay rights movement then it has to do with truth.

Growing up I had the reparative therapists textbook case of a homosexuals childhood. A distant father and a dominant mother. So when I first started reading ex gay books a lot of it really hit home for me. But Ive also come to know other gay people who didnt have childhoods like mine and whos family dynamic doesnt fit the reparative therapy model.

One of the pillars of reparative therapy is that a person seeking change has to develop non sexual, same sex relationships. They say that part of the reason why people are gay is that they dont identify properly with the same sex, they have no internalized sense of security in their own gender. I wonder about this point.

Growing up I did play dolls with my sister, but I was always the one who 'drove' the corvette because I was the boy (i guess i was a little sexist back then, sorry ladies), and when we played 'my little ponnies' my ponnies were always 'boy' ponnies....or so I would pretend. However my favorite toys were Transformers and GI Joe. I loved playing guns and riding bikes with the other boys in the neighborhood. I played football in Jr High. All throughout my childhood all of my best friends were other boys, I had a few female friends, but the vast amount of my time was spent with my male buddies.

I dont know what Im supposed to experience now as an adult that I didnt experience as a child.

I know of guys who were professional football players in the NFL, and I think if these guys can spend their whole lives commited to a very masculine team sport like football and still be gay...what hope is there for me?

Maybe Im not looking at the bigger picture here. Perhaps its possible to be a player in the NFL and still lack some sort of internal sense of your masculinity and be attracted to the same sex. Who knows?

If we aren't born this way, then my best guess at this point is that something goes 'wrong' during our development as children where we fail to secure some sort of internalized sense of our gender. Perhaps we view members of the same sex as being different in some way then ourselves. Or perhaps on some deep level we dont feel masculine or feminine, and somehow we erotisize our own gender in order compensate.

I think this is possible, but I think that reparative therapists place to much emphasis on the relationship with the same-sex parent. A lot of boys grow up with lousy fathers and they arent gay. My partner has a very kind, loving and affectionate father...not like mine was at all.

Anyways this is all just food for thought. I look forward to hearing your replies :)

Thanks

CalgaryAB
I'm really glad you are out of the ex-gay movement, Calgary.

I guess my take on the ex-gay movement is a little unique. I'm heterosexual, but one of my therapists was a conversion therapist. You might have heard of him (Warren Throckmorton of Grove City College). Throckmorton treated me for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Then, mysteriously, my mental health records ended up in the hands of the school administration, which they then used to force me out of Grove City College. Now, I'm not saying Throckmorton did that, but it does frankly look awfully suspicious . . .
(Coincidentally, part of the reason I got kicked out of GCC was for supporting gay rights. Hmmm . . . )

I've done a lot of research on reparative therapy since then. It sounds incredibly nutty to me. More to the point, it sounds useless. Even if we were to assume homosexuality was totally environmental (the famous 'choice' argument), there is no reason why it should then be considered immoral or in need of treatment. What I'm scared about is the new biotech revolution, where many people are promising to 'heal' homosexuals through genetic engineering, or by screening for embryos most likely to exhibit SSA and then aborting them. That is scary.:sigh:
 
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I don't support organizations like Exodus because what their programs can be harmful and don't help many people. I don't have a problem with people wanting to direct their own lives and change stuff about themselves they don't like, but there are other, less pernicious, routes to take than ex-gay orgs.
 
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What I'm hearing, beneath it all, is something of a longing still to find the X factor that makes people gay and fix it so you can be straight. What if there is nothing that makes someone gay and it's not able to be "fixed?" Maybe people being intolerant of same-sex relationships is their problem, not yours.
 
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What bothers me the most about ex-gay therapies and ministries isn't so much the move for someone to alter their sexuality, as the inherent shame that seems to drive the ex-gay movement.

I don't know if it's possible not to be gay anymore. I figure that sexuality just is what it is, there are a number of flavors of it, and, hey, maybe it can change, who knows? I don't have a problem with the idea of a certain flexibility of sexual drive among humans. Neither do I have any issues with an individual's seeking to shape whatever drive they have, really. Whether that's just a matter of experimentation, or whether it's something more long-term, or if it just happens, who cares?

But I think it's one thing to have a shift in one's desires just from, say, a desire to experiment or the effects of aging (for instance), and entirely another to try to force a change because you and others around you believe there's something deeply, terribly, shamefully wrong with the sexual orientation you currently have.

Shame is just a bad reason to try to change anything. It's also a very, very powerful motivator, and I suspect ex-gay ministries know that.

Welcome to the boards, by the way, CalgaryAB, and thanks for sharing your story. Sounds like you've got some interesting things to say about what you've experienced. I look forward to hearing more. :)
 
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As a gay man, going to ex-gay therapy is a bit like the opposite of the kid that used to harrass you in high school, and always call you a, um, word that rhymes with brag, but then see him in a gay bar 4 years later, and have him say, "Hey! Remember me? From high school?" (They've done studies that actually show how those who have the most animosity towards homosexuals have same sex attractions.)

Only, with exgays, it seems to go the opposite direction - they go back into the closet, then direct their self hatred at anger toward other gays, to take the focus off of themselves.

I don't know if I have ever met an "ex-gay". I'm met people that have gone through repartive therapy, but they were ex-exgays if anything.

Sexuality is more complicated than we want to admit.
I don't think anyone is 100% straight or gay, and we all fall on a different continuum, like a bell curve.

Unfortunately, people, and often, christian groups, will look at it over simplistically. "I'm not attracted to the same sex, most people aren't, so it must be a conscious choice." (I like chocolate, most people do, but not everyone likes chocolate. Is that a choice?)
Or "The bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin."
(That is debated even by theologians, and both sides will usually agree that it isn't "clear" because of the context, the words used that suggest "temple prostitute", etc.
"God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
If there was a God that made two people "as his plan", then incest was part of his plan, because that's what two people's offspring would have to do to continue the line - inbred hillbillies.
They will say, "It's not natural. Animals don't do that." You show them that animals do have homosexual sex, and of those animals that are monogamous, homosexual mates, and are told, "well, we aren't animals," negating their own argument.
Or the theory that "there was an absent father, a dominant mother." yes, that was my case, but I have 2 brothers and 2 sisters, and I'm the only one who's gay.
My brother said that when he was in a seminar, a man spoke about the groups relationships with their father. He said, "Can I see a show of hands for anyone that experiences this: Happy Father's Day, Dad!" "Why, thank you.....Do you want to talk to your mother?" Almost the whole room laughed and raised their hand. Most fathers werer like that - so afraid that their boys will turn out gay, that they never show them any affection, didn't talk about emotions or feelings, just showed you how to do things, and had little verbal skills.
Fortunately things have changed, but even when I would babysit in highschool, I would play superheroes with the kids, and Johnny was Superman, but Mike wanted to be Isis (a female), and would do it with such commitment.
I remember being in kindergarten, and most of the boys were drawing dragcars, fighter planes, monsters .I was drawing a house with a smiling sun, and flowers in the garden - and yet, because I was drawing something peaceful, and not a implement of destruction, they worried that there might be something "wrong" with me. Yes, there was - i didn't think starting fights made sense, I didn't think it was ok to pick on other kids, especially ones smaller, didn't like to make people cry... Get me to a therapist!!!


What's the most interesting about your story is that you talk about being a sex addict.
However, if you watch almost any kind of TV, you will see similar heterosexual activity. The show "Keys to the VIP" is all about proving what a man you are by picking up women. Men brag about how many women they sleep with, go to strip joints, and encourage women to kiss each other (if not more).

My opinion of it is that it's deceitful. It's a lie of hope to someone who is desparate to be something they are, something socially accepted. But it's not unlike a black person in the 50s relaxing their hair, dressing white, changing their speech, etc. They are still looked at as black, and an exgay person will still be seen as someone who is either gay, or exgay, but never heterosexual.

But I suppose that we all have to go through the process of self loathing, self actualization, questioning "what does it mean to be a man", questioning the church, praying to God, etc.

As a Christian, I prayed to God often about it. I had a difficult time admitting I was gay to God, myself, and could never admit it to others. And I agonized over it in countless prayers, until God finally told me, though thought, through the words of others, that I'm perfect just the way God made me.

And I found that my understanding of God was suddenly opened up. God didn't find me "disgusting" or "an abomination." That, too, was a lie.

But that is what most gay people are up against. The non-christians will beat you up, harrass you, call you a sick pervert. The church will say that you are not only a sinner, but even hated by God.

So, you feel alone, isolated. Some turn to drinking, some to drugs, some to anonymous sex, all which allow temporary relief (not unlike their heterosexual counterparts, except that they are not only accepted in their partying actions, they are congratulated).

But what you really want is to be loved, to be loved for who you are, to be held when you watch TV or fall asleep, someone to talk to when you are upset, someone who encourages you.

So, similar to heterosexuals, you may go from total abstinance to swinging to excess the other way, but eventually, you will end in the middle of the swing, feeling content, and watching others go through the same thing you did.
 
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What I'm hearing, beneath it all, is something of a longing still to find the X factor that makes people gay and fix it so you can be straight. What if there is nothing that makes someone gay and it's not able to be "fixed?" Maybe people being intolerant of same-sex relationships is their problem, not yours.

That would not be possible, something MUST be the cause of homosexuality. It could be a choice (I highly doubt this, but it might be), it could be a gene, a chemical imbalance, a psychological factor, perhaps even an altered soul or a demon in your head, but it must be something. Most likely its a mix of a few of those. (though the soul and demon are highly doubtful as well.)
 
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