The 613 Laws of the Old Testament

Tychicum · Nov 27, 2006

The Bible has much to say about salvation. The Bible is divided into different economies.

For more than 1500 years, from the day that Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the ten commandments from the Lord, until the day that the Lord Jesus died on the cross of Calvary, God kept His people under the reign of law.

During that Divine economy Gods people were kept under the law, shut unto the faith which should afterward be revealed. Galatians 3:23.

After centuries of waiting, the Lord Jesus came from heaven to live for some years with the Jews who were under the law.

Galatians 4:4. Then the Lord Jesus, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.

Hebrews 2:9. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4.

By His death on the cross the Lord Jesus abolished the Old Covenant. That has been done away. II Corinthians 3:12 to 16.

Concerning the Lords visit to earth, where He lived among His people, we read:

THOUGH HE WERE A SON, YET LEARNED HE OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS WHICH HE SUFFERED; AND BEING MADE PERFECT, HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM. Hebrews 5:8 and 9.

Beautiful expression! Wonderful truth! Blessed good news! Jesus Christ the Son of God became the Author of eternal salvation! Note how this glorious truth is stated in I Peter 3:18 and Hebrews 9:12:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. He was altogether perfect. He accomplished a perfect redemption. He provided perfect salvation for lost human beings, sinners. We are living in the day of grace, under Gods economy of grace. We are made saints by faith in Christ and His once-for-all sacrifice. Hebrews 10:10 and 14.

Note the grace good news.

FOR THE LAW WAS GIVEN BY MOSES, BUT GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST. John 1:17.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might GRACE REIGN THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO ETERNAL LIFE BY JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. Romans 5:20 and 21.

A note about the Law

Abram was an Eberite, a Hebrew, a descendant of Adam, Noah, and Shem. But Abram was neither an Israelite nor a Jew. Abram did not belong to the House of Israel because there was no House of Israel at the time he died. Judah was the son of Jacob (Israel). Judah was the great grandson of Abraham. The Jews, as to race, were Judahites. But all Israelites became Jews by religion.

Abram became Abraham when he was 99 years old. Genesis 17:7 to 17. Abram was justified in uncircumcision. Galatians 3:8 and Romans 4:8 to 11. But when Abram was declared righteous he was not baptized into the Body of Christ, as were Jews and Gentiles 1900 years later. I Corinthians 12:13.

Abram was not under the law, or under the Mosaic Covenant that became the Old Covenant after Christ died on the cross. II Corinthians 3:13 to 15. Hebrews 8:11.
Note carefully Galatians 3:19 and Romans 5:20 and 21:

THE LAW WAS ADDED.

WHEREFORE THEN SERVETH THE LAW? IT WAS ADDED BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE; AND IT WAS ORDAINED BY ANGELS IN THE HAND OF A MEDIATOR.

MOREOVER THE LAW ENTERED, THAT THE OFFENCE MIGHT ABOUND. BUT WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND: THAT AS SIN HATH REIGNED UNTO DEATH, EVEN SO MIGHT GRACE REIGN THROUGH RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO ETERNAL LIFE BY JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

Let us carefully compare these two verses of Scripture with Romans 5:13 and 14
UNTIL THE LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW. NEVERTHELESS DEATH REIGNED FROM ADAM TO MOSES.

The period from Adam to Moses was subdivided into other periods or dispensations. From Adam to Noah and the flood, about 1656 years. From Noah to the casting away of the Gentiles and the call and circumcision of Abraham, more than 400 years. From the call and justification of Abram to the adding of the law, the Old Testament and Israels religion (Hebrews 9:10), about 430 years.

LET US LEARN THESE IMPORTANT LESSONS

First: That from Adam to Moses, about 2500 years, Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Eber, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Levi, Joseph, and other men of God were not under the law. They were not Old Testament saints. In fact Moses was 80 years old when God gave the law to Israel at Sinai. They lived when there was no law. So God has very definitely marked a period in the Bible, designated

FROM ADAM TO MOSES WHEN THERE IS NO LAW

Second: We learn in Galatians 3:8, Galatians 3:16, 17 and 19, that 430 years before God added the (Old) Testament at Sinai, God preached the gospel to uncircumcised Abram, and by faith Abram was declared righteous. Let us keep in mind that the covenant given to Israel at Sinai was entirely new to Israel at that time and it did not become Old until after Christ had died on the cross.

Abraham was circumcised at the age of 99. Genesis 17:7 to 17. With that covenant of circumcision (Acts 7:8) God cut off the Gentiles and began a new Divine movement. Romans 1:21 to 31.

God made a covenant with Abraham in which He guaranteed to Abrahams seed (Israel) the land of Canaan. He confirmed that covenant with an oath.

Third: We learn in Galatians 3:16 to 19 that God added the law to the gospel preached to Abraham, to the covenant of promise which God gave to Abraham 430 years before Moses was on Mount Sinai. God added the Law Covenant to the Abrahamic Covenant. The Law Covenant was abolished after Christ died on the cross. But the Abrahamic Covenant has not been annulled. Because of this Covenant Israel will yet be saved. Romans 11:26 to 29.

Fourth: We learn in Matthew 1:1, that Jesus Christ was the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. In Romans 15:8, we learn that Jesus Christ was the Minister of the circumcision to confirm promises which God made to Israel. In Galatians 4:4 we learn that Jesus Christ was born under the Old Testament to redeem them that were under the Old Covenant. In Luke 2:12 to 20 we learn that Jesus Christ was circumcised. In Hebrews 9:15, we learn that Jesus Christ was the Mediator of the New Covenant. Jesus Christ was sent only to the children of Abraham (Israel), while on earth. Matthew 15:24. Luke 13:16. Luke 19:9.

Fifth. We learn in Romans 11:15 that the glorified risen Christ sent Paul with the message of reconciliation to Gentiles when and because Israel was cast away. Then and there began the times of the Gentiles spiritually. Since that time we have been living in the times of the Gentiles in every sense of the word. It is so important that we see the times of the Gentiles began with Nebuchadnezzar, politically, and with Paul spiritually.

(produced with much help from Dispensational preacher J.C.O'hair ...)

Dispy · Nov 28, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
that is not biblically true, dispy.

Jesus blood covered the transgression of "Adam", which caused the first death for all Adam -we are all in Adam as his seed- , and by that covering, He opened the Way back to the Father for all who come through the Strait Gate -the "Acceptable" blood offering, sprinkled once for all on His Mercy Seat body; but no one in Adam can come through the Gate unless they are absolved of personal sins by identifying with Jesus as Scapegoat.

On the Yearly Day of Atonement, when the chosen Scapegoat had all the sins of the people confessed over him and was sent away into the wilderness bearing those sins,-under the Law of Moses- that only put those sins away until the next year, for the people were not made perfect by the blood of bulls and goats sprinkled on the Mercy Seat at that time, and the remembrance of sins remained for they had to continually come again a nd offer the same offering yearly -which only was a type and shadow of the heavenly truth given to them to copy as an oracle of the Final Acceptable sin offering on the True Mercy Seat.

When the True and final Scapegoat had all the sins and iniquities of each person in Adam laid on Him -which is the moment the Father turned from Him on the cross and He thereby tasted our spiritual death, first, and took our physical death, second- He departed His perfect sinless body and took those sins and iniquities to the wilderness -Sheol, below- rising again from there as the perfected Man after the three days and three nights, leaving those sins and iniquities in Sheol, below.

Now that He is risen in perfection and ascended as Son of Man/Son of God/ Firstborn and High King and High Priest of earth in His New Man body of the second human being creation, we can also rise with Him as sons of God in Him -being joined to His One Living Spirit by adoption, which is the New Birth: but to identify with His taking of our own personal sins we must lay hands on Him, as our Scapegoat, as it were, confessing our personal sins and iniquities as those which He took away with Him to Sheol, to leave there -and the penalty of them was that departing to Sheol.

But He rose victorious over sin and death, for there was no sin in Him, and the payment for our ransom being paid, we cannot live with Him if we do not identify personally with His being our own Scapegoat and bearing our own sins and iniquities away -never to bring them up again against us.

If we will be human being sons of God in the NEw Man's image then we must enter into the Father's presence on high -into the Holy of Holies- through that "Strait Gate", the True Mercy Seat, itself, which is His New Man body of human flesh which received the once for all sin offering which was accepted, which put away forever the transgression of Adam [we are all Adam seed] and made it possible for us to be covered with New garments, called "Salvation" -to receive the glory of the Father indwelling, in.

If you have sinned, you must repent and confess them to Him, believing the Gospel of God that He took them away with Him to Sheol.
All in Adam will rise again because He covered the transgression of Adam, but those who have not identified personally with His bearing their own sins committed with understanding in their own bodies while they had their being will be cast aways, in the resurrected body- rejects of the harvests [there are two harvests of earth] when all the harvest of earth is gathered in at the end of this present creation: and to be a cast away and reject is to suffer the second death of total separation forever from not only the Fathers glory, but from the Light that lights every man that comes into the world [the Word] and from the Holy Spirit in whom we live and move and have our being in this present creation, since the beginning.
It is the Father we are separated from totally since the fall, and His glory indwelling us as sons of God in Adam [which was lost at the fall and cut us off from access to the Holy of Holies above, as sons of God in Adam [Luke 3:38].

And to be a cast away and reject is to be cast into the outer darkness, where the Light never shines, which is the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels; which all who take their part will have a share, in the end, forever, without remedy.

If I understand my Bible correctly, Jesus' death paid the sin debt for all mankind, the just and the unjust.

All members of the Body of Christ will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, in heaven, immediately after the rapture. There we will be judged, and rewarded, for our works that survive the trial of fire (1 Cor. 3:8-15). There is no mention of accounting for sins.

All the lost from the time of Adam will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. There, they to will be judged according to their works, prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Being Jesus paid for all the sins of ALL mankind, no one is left with an excuse for rejecting salvation, the free gift of God's grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Athaliamum · Nov 28, 2006

Dipsy I understand what yeshuasavedme is saying. Yes Yeshua did die for the sin of all mankind but in order for us to benefit from it we must acknowledge him and repent of our sin and die to sin and be alive in the Messiah as Paul said it. We as individuals must accept the sacrifice, if we reject it we are not covered by the substituory righteousness of the messiah.

If I understand my Bible correctly, Jesus' death paid the sin debt for all mankind, the just and the unjust.

We are all unjust and unworthy of the Glory of God, we all for short of it. That is why we need the Messiah. But before the Messiah the sacrific to absolve oneself from guilt was obedience, this is why the bible says "Abrahams obedience was counted as righteousness". Obedience was achieved by following God's commands which included sacrifice, so that is how those before Messiah will be judged on their acts.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 28, 2006

Dispy said:
If I understand my Bible correctly, Jesus' death paid the sin debt for all mankind, the just and the unjust.

All members of the Body of Christ will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, in heaven, immediately after the rapture. There we will be judged, and rewarded, for our works that survive the trial of fire (1 Cor. 3:8-15). There is no mention of accounting for sins.

All the lost from the time of Adam will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. There, they to will be judged according to their works, prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Being Jesus paid for all the sins of ALL mankind, no one is left with an excuse for rejecting salvation, the free gift of God's grace.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

What was the sin debt of all Adamkind?
What was required to pay the debt?
To whom was it owed?
Who could pay the debt?
How?

Then, after the sin debt of all Adamkind was paid -what about the personal sins of each Adam person? How are those removed?
Who removes them, and where are they taken to?

Tychicum · Nov 29, 2006

Some good questions. Best handled with a whole book and not a bunch of one line answers. What you want to look into is studies of Hamartiology and Soteriology ... or better yet find a good Systematic Theology study.

yeshuasavedme said:
What was the sin debt of all Adamkind?

Death due to sin. Our inherited sin from Adam first and our own. Although Adams sin was sufficient to bring death on. From Adam to Abraham there was no law ... so sin was no imputed ... but they still all died.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Romans 5:12-14 KJV)

yeshuasavedme said:
What was required to pay the debt?

Death. God is Holy and Just. To satisfy His Infinite Justice and retain His Infinite Holiness the debt had to be paid by a perfect death ... an "infinite death".

Simple "mercy" wasn't sufficient. That was not Infinitely Just ...

yeshuasavedme said:
To whom was it owed?

God. At least that is to whom the Sacrifice was made. Theologians call it "Substitutionary". And certainly all of the Types of the Old Testament ... and then the anti-Type of Jesus in the New explain the Substitutionary nature of the Blood of God's Perfect Lamb.

Some modernest Churches find that offensive and have "watered down" the blood somewhat. It is gross. But it is Blood which is required.

yeshuasavedme said:
Who could pay the debt?

Everyone's capible of paying it in one way or another ... my has been paid on my behalf by Another. Look into "Kindsmen Reedemer" and the Book of Ruth for a very fitting Type ...

yeshuasavedme said:
Then, after the sin debt of all Adamkind was paid -what about the personal sins of each Adam person? How are those removed?

I do not subscribe wholly to the "every sin of every man" principle ... but to your other point ... each persons personal sin was paid at the same time on the same cross. Past, present and Future sins. When you stop and think of it all of our sins were 2,000 years future to the cross ... and each and every one paid for perfectly.

.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 29, 2006

Tychicum said:
Some good questions. Best handled with a whole book and not a bunch of one line answers. What you want to look into is studies of Hamartiology and Soteriology ... or better yet find a good Systematic Theology study.

Death due to sin. Our inherited sin from Adam first and our own. Although Adams sin was sufficient to bring death on. From Adam to Abraham there was no law ... so sin was no imputed ... but they still all died.

Death. God is Holy and Just. To satisfy His Infinite Justice and retain His Infinite Holiness the debt had to be paid by a perfect death ... an "infinite death".

Simple "mercy" wasn't sufficient. That was not Infinitely Just ...

God. At least that is to whom the Sacrifice was made. Theologians call it "Substitutionary". And certainly all of the Types of the Old Testament ... and then the anti-Type of Jesus in the New explain the Substitutionary nature of the Blood of God's Perfect Lamb.

Some modernest Churches find that offensive and have "watered down" the blood somewhat. It is gross. But it is Blood which is required.

Everyone's capible of paying it in one way or another ... my has been paid on my behalf by Another. Look into "Kindsmen Reedemer" and the Book of Ruth for a very fitting Type ...

I do not subscribe wholly to the "every sin of every man" principle ... but to your other point ... each persons personal sin was paid at the same time on the same cross. Past, present and Future sins. When you stop and think of it all of our sins were 2,000 years future to the cross ... and each and every one paid for perfectly.

.

I was asking to see Dispy's understanding of the matters at hand.

So okay, Tychicum:
What is death?
Why did Adam's death not pay the price owed?
And if God is the one to whom the debt is owed, then what kind of God is He who desires death as a "payment" -and what does the payment buy, from God?

Tychicum · Nov 29, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
I was asking to see Dispy's understanding of the matters at hand.

So okay, Tychicum:
What is death?
Why did Adam's death not pay the price owed?
And if God is the one to whom the debt is owed, then what kind of God is He who desires death as a "payment" -and what does the payment buy, from God?

What is this ... 20 questions?

You haven't paid me for the last bunch.

Tychicum · Nov 29, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
And if God is the one to whom the debt is owed, then what kind of God is He who desires death as a "payment" -and what does the payment buy, from God?

Hmmm ... next you will say you don't know anything about predestination and what kind of a God is He ... if He chooses who He has mercy on and whom He will harden ...

Isn't this all covered in the Book of Enoch?

The word you want to research is "Propitiation". Here the ISBE does a reasonable job ... and saves my poor fingers.

Propitiation

pro-pish-i-ā´shun:

1. Terms and Meaning:

The word is Latin and brings into its English use the atmosphere of heathen rites for winning the favor, or averting the anger, of the gods. In the Old Testament it represents a number of Hebrew words - ten, including derivatives - which are sufficiently discussed under ATONEMENT (which see), of which propitiation is one aspect. It represents in Septuagint the Greek stems ἰλασκ-, hilask- (ἱλε-, hile-), and καταλλαγ-, katallag-, with derivatives; in the New Testament only the latter, and is rarely used.

Propitiation needs to be studied in connection with reconciliation, which is used frequently in some of the most strategic sentences of the New Testament, especially in the newer versions In Heb_2:17, the English Revised Version and the American Standard Revised Version have both changed “reconciliation” of the King James Version to “propitiation,” to make it correspond with the Old Testament use in connection with the sacrifice on the DAY OF ATONEMENT (which see). Luk_18:13 (“God, be thou merciful (margin “be propitiated&#8221 to me the sinner” (the American Standard Revised Version margin)); Heb_8:12 (quoted from the Septuagint); and Mat_16:22 (an idiomatic asseveration like English “mercy on us&#8221 will help in getting at the usage in the New Testament.

In Septuagint hilastḗrion is the term for the “mercy-seat” or “lid of the ark” of the covenant which was sprinkled with blood on the Day of Atonement. It is employed in exactly this sense in Heb_9:5, where later versions have in the margin “the propitiatory.”

Elsewhere in the New Testament this form is found only in Rom_3:25, and it is here that difficulty and difference are found extensively in interpreting. Greek fathers generally and prominent modern scholars understand Paul here to say that God appointed Christ Jesus to be the “mercy-seat” for sinners.

The reference, while primarily to the Jewish ceremonial in tabernacle and temple, would not depend upon this reference for its comprehension, for the idea was general in religious thought, that some place and means had to be provided for securing friendly meeting with the Deity, offended by man's sin. In Hebrews particularly, as elsewhere generally, Jesus Christ is presented as priest and sacrifice. Many modern writers (compare Sanday and Headlam), therefore, object that to make Him the “mercy-seat” here complicates the figure still further, and so would understand hilastērion as “expiatory sacrifice.”

While this is not impossible, it is better to take the word in the usual sense of “mercy-seat.” It is not necessary to complicate the illustration by bringing in the idea of priest at all here, since Paul does not do so; mercy-seat and sacrifice are both in Christ. ἱλασμός, hilasmós, is found in the New Testament only in 1Jo_2:2; 1Jo_4:10.

Here the idea is active grace, or mercy, or friendliness. The teaching corresponds exactly with that in Romans. “Jesus Christ the righteous” is our “Advocate (margin “Helper&#8221 with the Father,” because He is active mercy concerning (περί, peri&#769 our sins and those of the whole world. Or (Rom_4:10), God “loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for (active mercy concerning) our sins.” This last passage is parallel with Rom_3:25, the one dealing with the abstract theory, and so Christ is set forward as a “mercy-seat,” the other dealing with experience of grace, and so Christ is the mercy of God in concrete expression.

2. Theological Implication:

The basal idea in Hebrew terms is that of covering what is offensive, so restoring friendship, or causing to be kindly disposed. The Greek terms lack the physical reference to covering but introduce the idea of friendliness where antagonism would be natural; hence, graciousness.

Naturally, therefore, the idea of expiation entered into the concept. It is especially to be noted that all provisions for this friendly relation as between God and offending man find their initiation and provision in God and are under His direction, but involve the active response of man. All heathen and unworthy conceptions are removed from the Christian notion of propitiation by the fact that God Himself proposed, or “set forth,” Christ as the “mercy-seat,” and that this is the supreme expression of ultimate love. God had all the while been merciful, friendly, “passing over” man's sins with no apparently adequate, or just, ground for doing so. Now in the blood of Christ sin is condemned and expiated, and God is able to establish and maintain His character for righteousness, while He continues and extends His dealing in gracious love with sinners who exercise faith in Jesus. The propitiation originates with God, not to appease Himself, but to justify Himself in His uniform kindness to men deserving harshness. Compare also as to reconciliation, as in Rom_5:1-11; 2Co_5:18 ff. See also JOHANNINE THEOLOGY, V., 2.

yeshuasavedme · Nov 29, 2006

Tychicum said:
What is this ... 20 questions?

You haven't paid me for the last bunch.

Think about it. If God required death as a debt payment, then why was everyone taking their payment to hell instead of to heaven? -H-M-M-

-and why did Adam's death not pay God the debt -if God required the death as payment?

yeshuasavedme · Nov 29, 2006

Tychicum said:
Hmmm ... next you will say you don't know anything about predestination and what kind of a God is He ... if He chooses who He has mercy on and whom He will harden ...

Isn't this all covered in the Book of Enoch?

The word you want to research is "Propitiation". Here the ISBE does a reasonable job ... and saves my poor fingers.

Don't put words in my mouth Tychicum -be honest and either reply with reason or admit you cannot refute what I say.

Why don't you go read the book of 1 Enoch and see the folly of MAD in line with that book which Jesus read and used in His teaching? you can find it online at many sites -www.ccel.org has it.

You seem to be one who reads and promotes many books -so try the oldest one [I believe it is the oldest, nevertheless, it predates the New Testament and was read by the LORD and His Apostles] instead of keeping your head in the sand, as it were, and denying there is something out there which has been there for thousands of years -which totally refutes MAD doctrine.
-You'll find it online at CCEL.org

And when Paul and John use the word translated propitiation in the verses below, the word is Mercy Seat and the offering sprinkled upon it -look it up for yourself in the Concordance online.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Tychicum · Nov 30, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Don't put words in my mouth Tychicum -be honest and either reply with reason or admit you cannot refute what I say.

The hope was not to "refute" you ... you look silly enough without my help with your reliance on the Book of Enoch.

The hope was to get you thinking .. studying other than your Enoch.

So with that.

Good day ...

yeshuasavedme · Nov 30, 2006

Tychicum said:
...
Note the “grace” good news.

“FOR THE LAW WAS GIVEN BY MOSES, BUT GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS CHRIST.” John 1:17.
...
A note about the Law …

THE LAW WAS ADDED.

“WHEREFORE THEN SERVETH THE LAW? IT WAS ADDED BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS, TILL THE SEED SHOULD COME TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE; AND IT WAS ORDAINED BY ANGELS IN THE HAND OF A MEDIATOR.”

LET US LEARN THESE IMPORTANT LESSONS...
...)

Tychicum,
I gave you a challenge -you refuse the challenge, relying instead on the many books you post from and paste from -by your own words- yet, the book which refutes your MAD dcotrine you refuse to read and compare Scripture to -and make derogatory comments about and question without having read it -that's a no-no!

Nevertheless, the Truth stands and has stood before MAD doctrine came about and refutes MAD thousands of years before that doctrine was brought into 'being' -so to speak.

I isolated your comments above, with this Scripture,

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

to show you that Paul used Enoch in his teachings -in fact, Paul is nothing if not Enochian in his doctrine: being a student of Enoch, Paul oozes the doctrines first taught in Enoch -and quotes from there often -which is reason enough for the Judaisers to hate him.

XCII, XCI.1-10, 18-19. Enoch's Book of Admonition for his Children.
92
1 The book written by Enoch -[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.

3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep [death]
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
5 And sin shall perish in darkness for ever,
And shall no more be seen from that day for evermore.

[note, Tychicum, that sin is put away forever -perished in darkness- made an end of by that Righteous One -who rises from death]

…
93
1,2 And after that Enoch both gave and began to recount from the books. And Enoch said:
'Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world,
And concerning the plant of uprightness, I will speak these things,
Yea, I Enoch will declare (them) unto you, my sons:
According to that which appeared to me in the heavenly vision,
And which I have known through the word of the holy angels,
And have learnt from the heavenly tablets.'
3 And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:
'I was born the seventh in the first week,
While judgement and righteousness still endured.
4 And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,
And deceit shall have sprung up;
And in it there shall be the first end.
And in it a man shall be saved;
And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up,
And a law shall be made for the sinners.

[note, Tychicum, that the law was made for sinners! -after the "second week", after Noah -the man- was saved, in the second week]

yeshuasavedme · Dec 1, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Tychicum,
I gave you a challenge -you refuse the challenge, relying instead on the many books you post from and paste from -by your own words- yet, the book which refutes your MAD dcotrine you refuse to read and compare Scripture to -and make derogatory comments about and question without having read it -that's a no-no!

Nevertheless, the Truth stands and has stood before MAD doctrine came about and refutes MAD thousands of years before that doctrine was brought into 'being' -so to speak.

I isolated your comments above, with this Scripture,

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

to show you that Paul used Enoch in his teachings -in fact, Paul is nothing if not Enochian in his doctrine: being a student of Enoch, Paul oozes the doctrines first taught in Enoch -and quotes from there often -which is reason enough for the Judaisers to hate him.

XCII, XCI.1-10, 18-19. Enoch's Book of Admonition for his Children.
92
1 The book written by Enoch -[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.

3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep [death]
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
5 And sin shall perish in darkness for ever,
And shall no more be seen from that day for evermore.

[note, Tychicum, that sin is put away forever -perished in darkness- made an end of by that Righteous One -who rises from death]

…
93
1,2 And after that Enoch both gave and began to recount from the books. And Enoch said:
'Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world,
And concerning the plant of uprightness, I will speak these things,
Yea, I Enoch will declare (them) unto you, my sons:
According to that which appeared to me in the heavenly vision,
And which I have known through the word of the holy angels,
And have learnt from the heavenly tablets.'
3 And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:
'I was born the seventh in the first week,
While judgement and righteousness still endured.
4 And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,
And deceit shall have sprung up;
And in it there shall be the first end.
And in it a man shall be saved;
And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up,
And a law shall be made for the sinners.

[note, Tychicum, that the law was made for sinners! -after the "second week", after Noah -the man- was saved, in the second week]

Tychicum,
Where was what Gabriel showed Daniel, in Daniel chapters 11-12 written before Gabriel showed it to Daniel? -where is that Scripture of Truth to be found and read which Gabriel read, and knew what was to come, and knew what to uphold [and only Michael and he did it, as pertained to Israel] -can you point anyone to it?

Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is written***[noted] in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Tychicum · Dec 5, 2006

You really don't see it do you ...

Tychicum · Dec 5, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Tychicum,
I gave you a challenge -you refuse the challenge

I don't do challanges. It isn't Christianlike ... I prefer peace.

Maybe you should talk it over at home?

For God is not of confusion, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints. Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them question their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in an assembly. Or did the Word of God go out from you? Or did it reach only to you? If anyone thinks to be a prophet, or a spiritual one, let him recognize the things I write to you, that they are a command of the Lord. But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
(1Co 14:33-38)

.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 6, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Tychicum,
Where was what Gabriel showed Daniel, in Daniel chapters 11-12 written before Gabriel showed it to Daniel? -where is that Scripture of Truth to be found and read which Gabriel read, and knew what was to come, and knew what to uphold [and only Michael and he did it, as pertained to Israel] -can you point anyone to it?

Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is written***[noted] in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Do you do Scripture?
Can you tell where the Scripture of Truth was written that the angel read and upheld and made known to Daniel?

eph3Nine · Dec 7, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Do you do Scripture?
Can you tell where the Scripture of Truth was written that the angel read and upheld and made known to Daniel?

"Doing scripture" and understanding what it MEANS are two different things. You put up loads of scripture but clearly have NO idea what you are talking about. Religion and superstition and unbiblical sources and operating in a program God set aside two thousand years ago...clearly NOT marks of one who has "spiritual understanding"...but of one who is "RELIGIOUS and POMPOUS and sadly LOST"

yeshuasavedme · Dec 8, 2006

eph3Nine said:
"Doing scripture" and understanding what it MEANS are two different things. You put up loads of scripture but clearly have NO idea what you are talking about. Religion and superstition and unbiblical sources and operating in a program God set aside two thousand years ago...clearly NOT marks of one who has "spiritual understanding"...but of one who is "RELIGIOUS and POMPOUS and sadly LOST"

So you believe I am sadly lost-

-because I do not agree with you and refute the doctrine of MAD and prove it unblilical by not only the writings of the Old and New Testament -which many others here have done well, also- but by pointing out that the book of Enoch pre-dates the doctrines of MAD by thousands of years and is quoted in the New Testament by Jesus, Peter, John, James, Jude, and Paul, giving it validity? -for that, you believe I am sadly lost!

But I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against "that day".

biblebeliever123 · Dec 8, 2006

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

NOT after man....Enoch was a man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
NEITHER received it of MAN...Enoch was a man.

BUT by THE REVELATION of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Enoch = flesh and blood

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
The dispensation of the grace of God was given to Paul, not to Enoch.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
He(Christ) made known unto Paul the mystery...not Enoch made known unto Paul the mystery.

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
It was given to Paul to fulfil the word of God...doesn't say Enoch.

Hmm...book of Enoch or God's Word?
Well, I know what book I trust...I'm a Bible believer not an Enoch believer. Everyone makes choices, praise the Lord for that privilege.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 8, 2006

biblebeliever123 said:
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

NOT after man....Enoch was a man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
NEITHER received it of MAN...Enoch was a man.

BUT by THE REVELATION of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Enoch = flesh and blood

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
The dispensation of the grace of God was given to Paul, not to Enoch.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
He(Christ) made known unto Paul the mystery...not Enoch made known unto Paul the mystery.

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
It was given to Paul to fulfil the word of God...doesn't say Enoch.

Hmm...book of Enoch or God's Word?
Well, I know what book I trust...I'm a Bible believer not an Enoch believer. Everyone makes choices, praise the Lord for that privilege.

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.2Pe 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Enoch was a holy man of God who did not speak his own private interpretation, but was moved by the Holy Ghost to speak that which he was commanded to speak which he was shown in heaven to report for all his descendents -we are all his descendents and he said he left the record for us -and Paul read what he wrote and got a lot for us from that, by the opening of his understanding by the Holy Spirit, to also speak of, for our learning.

private: 1) pertaining to one's self, one's own, belonging to one's self
interpretation: 1) a loosening, unloosing...

Paul saw the Son of Man in His glory and was called by Him and sent: but those who ministered to Paul and made known to him the LORD's will were Anannais, first; the Council at Jerusalem, and the Chruch at Antioch.

-And as to the books you trust: care to tell us what men wrote the books you get the doctrine of MAD from? you did not receive that doctrine from the LORD, as it contradicts His revealed word, my friend, and that Word was established thousands of years before MAD doctrine.

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