A Primitive Faith question.....

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nyj

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Originally posted by Fr. Rob
I have to say you are taking this verse out of context.

 

You can certainly say that, but I am afraid you are the one who is wrong (see more Scripture to follow).

Originally posted by Fr. Rob

1 Pet. 3: 7 refers to a husband or wife interefereing in the prayer-life of the mate.  To impede a prayer on this end does not constitute a refusal to answer. . . it constitutes a prayer that is interrupeted, impeded, etc.

1 Peter 3:7 is not referring to a husband or wife interferring in the prayer life of the other.  It is a warning specifically to husbands to be the spiritual head of their household, for if they are not... as they spiritually starve their famly, they too will find themselves cut off from God.


Originally posted by Fr. Rob
When a prayer gets to God, he may choose to answer it as requested, deny it outright, or anywhere in between.  Yes, No, or Wait.

To quote Scripture:

"When you spread out your hands, I close my eyes to you; Though you pray the more, I will not listen." - Isaiah 1:15

Hrm, ignored?  Sounds like it to me.  What about you?  Care to revise your answer?

"He hears the prayers of the righteous." - Proverbs 15:29
 
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Originally posted by VOW
If Mary had been the town tramp, the parentage of Jesus would have come into question. His miraculous conception HAD to be from a virgin. 

 

Ok, town tramp was a bad example, but it was the first one that came to mind.  Certinaly, Mary (or anyone else who whould have bore Christ) had to be a virgin.  Note, it is possible to be the town tramp and still be a virgin, just very difficult.

At any rate, the point remains, nothing requires Mary to be sinless. 

Fr. Rob

 
 
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Originally posted by nyj
 


To quote Scripture:

"When you spread out your hands, I close my eyes to you; Though you pray the more, I will not listen." - Isaiah 1:15

Hrm, ignored?  Sounds like it to me.  What about you?  Care to revise your answer?


No, I don't care to revise my answer.

A man comes and knocks on my car door while I am at a stoplight.  He smells of beer (my window is down) and he smells of pot.  He starts begging me for money.  I ignore him.  He says, "Give me $1.00 for a drink at the gas station."  I ignore him.  What, then, is my answer?  My answer would be no.  It would be an emphatic no, made all the more emphatic by my refusal to waste my breath on saying it.

Fr. Rob
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Fr. Rob
No, I don't care to revise my answer.

A man comes and knocks on my car door while I am at a stoplight.  He smells of beer (my window is down) and he smells of pot.  He starts begging me for money.  I ignore him.  He says, "Give me $1.00 for a drink at the gas station."  I ignore him.  What, then, is my answer?  My answer would be no.  It would be an emphatic no, made all the more emphatic by my refusal to waste my breath on saying it.

Nice try, but no go. In your example, the man's requests went unanswered. You ignored him. You did not answer the man in the negative, you did not turn to him and say "No." You denied him any answer. There is, Rob, a difference.
 
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Originally posted by nyj
 
1 Peter 3:7 is not referring to a husband or wife interferring in the prayer life of the other.  It is a warning specifically to husbands to be the spiritual head of their household, for if they are not... as they spiritually starve their famly, they too will find themselves cut off from God.

Well, actually, we are both right and both wrong according to the NAB bible footnotes in my Oxford Study Edition of the NAB.

"3,7:  Husbands who do not respect their wives will have as little success in prayer as those who, according to Paul, have no love:  their prayers will be "a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal."  Consideration for others is shown as a prerequisite for effective prayer. . . After all, whatever the social position of women in the world and in the family, they are equal recipients of the gift of God's salvation."

Husbands must respect their wives, no matter what position or secular dignity they may hold.  That extends to matters of the home, heart, and the spirit.  Husbands must love and respect their wives so that they will not intrefere in the mutual life of prayer that each enjoys.  Husbands who muck it up will find themselves being ingored by God, as their prayers will not resound as anything but empty and hollow.  And, as we know, God rejects the empty and hollow prayers of our world.  (In other words, in rejecting them, he says NO.)

Fr. Rob

 

 
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Fr. Rob
Well, actually, we are both right and both wrong according to the NAB bible footnotes in my Oxford Study Edition of the NAB.

"3,7:  Husbands who do not respect their wives will have as little success in prayer as those who, according to Paul, have no love:  their prayers will be "a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal."  Consideration for others is shown as a prerequisite for effective prayer. . . After all, whatever the social position of women in the world and in the family, they are equal recipients of the gift of God's salvation."

How does that make me wrong? That's exactly what I said.
 
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Originally posted by nyj


Nice try, but no go. In your example, the man's requests went unanswered. You ignored him. You did not answer the man in the negative, you did not turn to him and say "No." You denied him any answer. There is, Rob, a difference.

When is the last time God turned over, leaned down, and whispered NO in your ear?  I venture to say never.

The answers to our prayers are found, not in words but in the actions and circumstances of our lives.  I ask God to help me pay the rent.  I never hear a divine, booming voice say yes. . . I receive (or don't receive) some money from relative A or friend B.  God answers the prayer through oblique means. . . he inspires the means to be generous, or charitable, or loving, or the like. . . but I will have to say that I have never heard God's booming voice lean out the window and say NO to me.

Fr. Rob
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Fr. Rob
Husbands who muck it up will find themselves being ingored by God, as their prayers will not resound as anything but empty and hollow.

Exactly. Glad you see things my way.

Originally posted by Fr. Rob
And, as we know, God rejects the empty and hollow prayers of our world.  (In other words, in rejecting them, he says NO.)

Oh! So close but yet... still so far. Rob, ignoring someone is not saying "No". Ignoring is ignoring, it is leaving something unanswered.

Main Entry: ig·nore
Pronunciation: ig-'nOr, -'nor
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1801
1 : to refuse to take notice of
 
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Originally posted by nyj


Umm, what?

Sheesh, the lengths some people will go to to avoid being proven wrong.

 :sigh: Perhaps THIS will explain it.

When I was thirteen, I had a neighbor who was about 18 or 19.  She was engaged to be married.  She was also addicted to, of all things, cough syrup (ya know, Robitussin. . . the stuff that's full of alcohol).  She made it clear to all the boys in the neighborhood that she'd do virtually anything for a bottle of Robitussin. . . everything except engage in sexual intercourse.

So, living next door, I would see my schoolmates and chums venture down the street to the Grocery or the Drug Store, and return with a bottle of "the good stuff".  Enter her house while her aunt and uncle were away, and leave an hour or so later with Big fat grins on their faces.

Several years later, she converted to Christ, and we had a conversation.  She told me she was terribly ashamed for what she had did, but was so thankful that God gave her at least the grace to keep her virginity.

She was the neighborhood tramp.  For a bottle of cough syurp you could get almost any sexual favour out of her that you wanted.

Thus, it's hard, but not impossible, for you to be the town tramp and still be a virgin.

I'm not going to great lengths, NYJ.  I just had to look next-door.

Fr. Rob

 
 
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Originally posted by nyj
Oh! So close but yet... still so far. Rob, ignoring someone is not saying "No". Ignoring is ignoring, it is leaving something unanswered. 

 :sigh: I am not going to bother any further.  I can type my way into carpal tunnel, and it's obvious you won't listen.  I have said my piece, and I stick by what I said.

Poly, This discussion isn't fish bait. . . it's chum.  Bloody, "Jaws"-quality chum.

Fr. Rob // going to beat self over head with 2x4 for expecting people to be logical.

 
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Polycarp
NYJ - How is ignoring not an answer?

I think I smell fish bait?

Ok, let me see if I can make this any easier for you two to understand.

Let us say I own a store, it is in a "not so wealthy" part of town and word has gotten out that I have a charitable nature and often help people out with food and forgiving "tabs" if a family is especially desperate. People appreciate this gesture of good will, and therefore do not abuse it.

Answer in the affirmative:
An old lady comes into the store and has not eaten in two days. She says that she has heard about my store and asks if there is anything I can spare. I tell her of course there is and I fix her a sandwich, give her a bottle of juice and a couple of pieces of fruit. She leaves the store. As she is crossing the street she is harassed by a young man who takes her food and throws it on the floor. She gathers it up and moves along, the young man laughs and hangs out in front of the store.

Answer in the negative:
Another guy comes into the store and asks me if I can spare him any money. It is not my policy to give out money but rather give out sustenance so I tell him I can fix him some food, but money is out of the question. He leaves the store.

Ignoring, leaving a request unanswered:
Flash back to the young man who terrorized the old lady up above. He hits hard times but continues to be a punk. He is very hungry and remembers the old lady with the free food. He comes into my store, I recognize him. He asks me for some food. I tune him out. His request falls on deaf ears. I don't know if he's asking me for food or money or if he's even telling me he's about to get a knife and stab me. I refuse to acknowledge his existance. Eventually he turns away and leaves.

Now, tell me... did I give the man an answer? No, I did not. I didn't tell him yes, I didn't tell him no. I ignored him, to the point where I did not even hear what he was saying. As far as I cared, he did not exist. Perhaps he may have even been better had a millstone been tied around his neck.

And that is the way it is with the wicked man. So departed from God's presence that God refuses to acknowledge him. God won't give an answer because God is not listening. Until that man seeks Jesus Christ and asks Jesus Christ to intercede for him, on his behalf to the Father, to first and foremost forgive him of his sins, he should fear death for death will bring hell. For Hell is without God. It is to be forever ignored, forever denied life and love.

I'd rather be told "No".
 
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Originally posted by KC Catholic
OK.....I feel like we're lowering ourselves here to make a point.

Let's not intermingle sordid stories as a comparison with Our Holy Mother....its making me uncomfortable.

There was a challenge that I was streching it to have the town tramp be a virgin.  I merely proved it was possible.  You don't have to believe my story if you don't want to.

I don't see why it makes you uncomfortable, KC, unless you are afraid that a child might read it and get ideas.  Sadly, we cannot successfully insulate our children from all of life, and it's best for them to learn right from wrong on a site like this.

To all the girls out there, I am not endorsing you to go and ask boys and girls in your neighborhood to do what was done it mine. . . it's an example.  Please take it as such.

I see no other reason to be uncomfortable...

Fr. Rob
 
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nyj

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Rob,

Sex is more than just sexual intercourse. Virginity is more than physical, it is spiritual. In the case you mentioned, she didn't "keep her virginity" she lost it the first time she gave a "sexual favor".

And this is why morality has reached new lows. When a pastor can say that giving sexual favors, while abstaining from sexual intercourse, preserves virginity, and can say it with a straight face, things are seriously skewed.

Lord have mercy.

PS: Wasn't this Clinton's defense for the Lewinsky scandal?
 
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NYJ,

Non sequitor. That does not compute. I have never met ANYONE who would be able to tune out the words "I have a knife and I am going to kill you."

You still answered him. Making the conscious decision to ignore someone is a way of saying, NO, go away, you are not doing this through appropriate means. Try again. Do not pass go, or collect $200.

:sigh: And here I promised to keep my mouth shut.

NYJ, it's becoming more and more apparent that you and I are not going to agree on this. I will not admit you are right, because I know what goes through my mind when I ignore someone. You will not admit that I am right for. . . well. . . God knows what reason.

Let's just drop it. We aren't going to agree. . . and I can see this turning into yet another flame-war which I, for one, would prefer to avoid.

Fr. Rob // trying his best to drop it.
 
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