Faith alone

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lostthenfound

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What I see in the replies from Catholics is that the Sacrifice by Christ was not enough. If you can lose your justification by committing a sin, and in order to regain that justification you have to perform penance, then your salvation is not of faith but of works. If this is so, then you can boast of what you did to regain your justification. Christ's sacrifice becomes meaningless.

If baptism is a requirment for salvation, then you are performing a WORK of which you can boast. Christ's sacrifice becomes meaningless.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Penance and baptism are WORKS, no matter how much it is stated that these are "misunderstood" by Protestants.

James said faith without works was meaningless because the faith is not real if we are not performing works. If we profess faith and then do nothing but sin and blaspheme, then our faith is untrue. Even demons know that Jesus is the Christ, but that "faith" does nothing to save them from eternal torment. I believe that not eating McDonald's hamburgers everyday will keep my arterys from clogging up. But if still eat a Big Mac everyday, then that "faith" is meaningless because I will still likely die of a heart attack by the time I am 40. The same is true with salvation. I can believe in God and believe that Christ died on a cross. But that is not a true faith if all I do is believe it and not live it. That is what James is saying.

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

James 2:19

The crux of the matter is that Christ died on the cross for our sins. If we continue to crucify Jesus every time we sin, then we are rendering His sacrifice useless. We are effectively saying that Christ died for nothing.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Paul said that the gospel he taught was the ONLY gospel.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:4

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 1:16-17
 
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VOW

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To LTF:

You're missing the boat here. Catholics do not EARN forgiveness through penance. Penance is an action to allow the Catholic to re-focus his or her life on God again.

Forgiveness is through the Sacrifice of Christ: first, last, and always. When a Catholic goes to Confession and the priest says, "Your sins are forgiven, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," he is merely REAFFIRMING the Cross. Nothing NEW is happening here.

This is a common misconception of Catholicism.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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KC Catholic

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Here is the way I see it....

1. Everyone does works.
2. If you live a life dedicated to Christ and his teachings - you are doing good works.

3. If you live a life dedicated to satisfying your personal needs, looking out for only YOU, loving money and material things and couldn't give a pud nickle for anyone else - you are doing BAD works.

4. If you take the blessing and grace of salvation and do nothing but sit around thinking you've got it made - you are a slug (and not doing ANY works). Kind of like taking the talents and burying them in the field - remember that parable?

We all do works - which do you choose to do?
 
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Originally posted by Wolseley
It's not that there is an "amount that is required", Jeff.


Wols,

I am aware of a teaching in the Roman Church called "supererogation".  The teaching states that those who are in heaven had "more merits" than needed to get into heaven, and that the overwheming merits that they had and didn't need have been transferred into a "treasury" of sorts that is administered by the Pontiff.

These overwhelming merits are earned through indulgences (see the Handbook of Indulgences, recently revised).  They aid the faithful in purgatory (though I am not flamiliar enough with the ins and outs of the teaching to know if they also help us who are living).

The central reason I would like to have this explained in more depth here is because, if there is no fixed amount of good works needed for salvation, how can there be an overwhelming merit from any saint that is bestowed upon anyone to get them into heaven faster?

Fr. Rob
 
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VOW

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To Fr Rob:

I'm going to take a flying leap at this one.

Apparently, these merits have no value to us poor souls still on earth. This "heavenly transaction" occurs only in Purgatory, am I correct?

I best understand Purgatory to be a cleansing process, not a detention classroom as was often explained to schoolchildren back in the cave days when my husband was a child.

If gratuitous merits from a martyr are applied to cleanse the soul in Purgatory, to me that just means another sponge in the bucket of soapy water. The fact a person has MADE it to Purgatory means their ticket has already been punched for final destination: Heaven. That bottom line is my focus. What occurs, or however LONG it takes to happen is very, very low on my priority list.

As for US here on earth offering prayers on behalf of the souls in Purgatory, I don't have a problem with that, either. Whether or not my personal prayers are "another sponge in the bucket of soapy water" is besides the point. Prayer is GOOD FOR ME. It forces me to think about something other than ME, and focuses my heart on God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by lostthenfound
If baptism is a requirment for salvation, then you are performing a WORK of which you can boast. Christ's sacrifice becomes meaningless.
Penance and baptism are WORKS, no matter how much it is stated that these are "misunderstood" by Protestants.

LTF:

Here is the key.  (This comes from my perspective, as a member of the Primitive Episcopal branch of the Catholic Church, so the RC statements may vary.)

1.  We are indeed saved by faith, and not of our own works.

 2.  Baptism is not a work we do.  It is a work that God does.  We have no power in and of ourselves to bless water, or to empower it to wash away sin. . . and yet as the Bible refers to baptism as the "washing of regeneration", through God's ordinary means (Baptism) the blood of Christ is applied to us, and we are regenerated:

<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Titus 3:5&nbsp; </SPAN>Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
</DIV>

<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Ephesians 5:26</SPAN>
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, </DIV>

<DIV class=SearchResults>(I encourage you to read the entire chapters in context, of course.)</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults>Baptism, and in fact all the Sacraments, are works of God, not works of Man.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults>Blessings,</DIV>

<DIV class=SearchResults>Fr. Rob</DIV>
 
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jukesk9

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Why is it when someone posts Ephesians 2:8-9 they ignore verse 10, which completes the context in which this verse talks about?

Verse 10:&nbsp; For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works to please God.&nbsp; The verse tells us that and that we should WALK in the good works.&nbsp;

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-10 let's us know that God gave us this gift.&nbsp; God gave it to US.&nbsp; We didn't make this gift nor did we do anything to deserve it.&nbsp; It's free.&nbsp; The first part is letting us know that our works didn't earn this gift.&nbsp; But then, the verse tells us that we are to walk in good works.&nbsp; So, God's telling us, "Here you go.&nbsp; Now it's free, but you must cooperate and put your faith into action."&nbsp; We could lose it if we reject God's commandments.
 
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