Is It True ? ? ?

ModernDaySpyridon · Oct 12, 2006

ETide said:
This is grossly incorrect in my estimation.. circumcision was a TOKEN (a sign) of what GOD does when He circumcizes the heart.. and this is through faith.. God purifies our hearts by faith.. when we trust in HIM.. in what HE DOES.. not in what we do..

Exactly.
It is in your "estimation" that this is an incorrect view of circumcision.

Look, circumcision, as it is referred to throughout the OT, is a sign of the covenenat that God made with the Israelites, and yet the Israelites continually broke covenant whith their God. That is why there is a continual call to the "circumcision of the heart".

Deut. 10:15-17
15 The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Click to expand...

Deut. 30:5-7
Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

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Jeremiah 4:3-5
3 This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem:
"Break up your unplowed ground
and do not sow among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD,
circumcise your hearts,
you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will break out and burn like fire
because of the evil you have done—
burn with no one to quench it.

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Jeremiah 9:20-26
23 This is what the LORD says:
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom
or the strong man boast of his strength
or the rich man boast of his riches,

24 but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD. 25 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh- 26 Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. [a] For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart."

Click to expand...

You will notice that the call to the circumcision of the heart is not because the original circumsion, the original entry into covenant, was invalid; it is because they had fallen away from that covenant, because they had not continued in the path of the covenant they were given.

You will also notice that the circumcision of eight-day-old males has nothing to do with the cognitive abilities of the child, or their ability to rationally grasp their need for God; it is based on them being welcomed into the people of God. It is a deposit of faith.

However, it is their choice to live in that, to hold to the deposit that was given to them, and that is what the circumcision of the heart is referring to; a return to covenant, not the creation of a new one.

How about Ephesians 4 where it speaks about not grieving the Holy Spirit by which we are sealed until the day of redemption.. Do you believe that..?

Of course we believe that! We are sealed at our chrismation, when the priest inscribes a cross on our bodies with the blessed oil, or Chrism, and intones "The Seal of the Holy Spirit..."

And our whole lives are a process of learning to please God, not greave him by our disobedience and distraction.

Shall not the judge of all the earth do justly..? I need not worry about the salvation of those that can not understand or who do not have the capacity to believe.. God is not unjust..

Neither do we...actually we are tought to not worry about/try and figure out the salvation of anyone but ourselves. We do not beleve that unbaptized babies who die are going to hell; we believe in a merciful God.

IT doesn't teach me that I throw out repentance and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.. is that what you think it should mean..?

Of course not!

Simply because we baptize infants in the EOC does not meanthat repentance and believing personally in the saving and healing work of Jesus Christ is less important; on the contrary, we would say that being brought up with that grace and relationship already in play (and guided by a family and church life that encourages it) leads to a greater depth of faith and repentance.

Look at it this way; when you are born, you don't have any say in the matter. You do not have a choice, it is not about you being able to see your need for parents; they love you , and want to raise you to love them as well. Nobody would advocate waiting until a child is 13 or 14 (this arbitrary "age of awareness" that is thrown around) or even 5 before a relationship with their parents should start.

Why should it be different with our heavenly father, who's love for us is without measure?

As far as households.. you can stretch that to mean infants or unbelieving all day long.. it doesn't make it true.. and don't you think that God would have made it perfectly clear in His word.. ? Why doesn't He give us one example of an infant being baptized in the scriptures.. ? Why..?

Probably for the same reason that it doesn't give exact details on what a service in church should look like.
Or how old St. John the Baptist was when he died.
Or what Jesus looked like.

All important things right?

The Bible does not contain everything about everything, or something about everything, or even everything about something. It contains selected things about certain people, practices, and events.

So saying "It's not in the Bible, therefore it's not true" doesn't make any sense. The Bible arose out of the writings of the early church and the apostles. The Bible didn't appear in it's finished form until the fourth century. During those four centuries, and after that as well, do you know wh at those people, those Saints, and teachers, those martyrs did?

They baptized their children.

The did this because it was the overwhelming practice of the men who wrote all of the epistles, the epistles that you quote to support a belief that is out of step with the practice of the men who wrote them.

So if St. Paul baptized infants, why are you saying that he told us not to?

Once again...

Although this is only indirect Scriptural evidence, the fact that the Bible mentions that entire "households" were baptized does make it seem probable that children and infants were included. "Now I did baptize the household of Stephanas . . . " (1 Corinthians 1:16) (An angel spoke to Cornelius saying) "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, and all your household " (Later, when Peter arrived at (Cornelius' household) "... he ordered them to be baptized."(Acts 11:13b, 14; Acts 10:48a) "And when she (Lydia of Thyatira) and her household had been baptized . . . " (Acts 16:15a) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household . . . and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. " (Acts 16:31, 33b) We know that the Greek word oikos, translated "house" or "household," has traditionally included infants and children in its meaning for several reasons. There is no evidence of this word being used either in secular Greek, Biblical Greek,or in the writing of Hellenistic Judaism in a way which would restrict its meaning only to adults. The Old Testament parallel for "house" carries the sense of the entire family. The Greek translation of the original Hebrew manuscripts (completed in 250 B.C.) uses this word when translating the Hebrew word meaning the complete family (men, women, children, infants). Similarly, we know that the phrase "he and his house" refers to the total family; the Old Testament use of this phrase clearly demonstrates this by specifically mentioning the presence of children and infants at times.

You are saying that the bible never specifically says that infants shoud be baptized...but it clearly states that whole households were baptized, in addition to the individuals who believed (the jailer, Lydia, Stephanas, Cornelius)

What else could this mean?

It's sheer nonsense.

No offense, but what is sheer nonsense is throwing out the clear teaching and practice of the Apostles, as well as 2000 years of unbroken church history, simply because of a modern reading of a few scripture passages, heavily influenced by Enlightenment views of the nature of man.

We all read scripture through a lens.

The question is...what lens do you use?

ETide · Oct 12, 2006

irishseventysix said:
So it wasn't also a sign of a covenant? It wasn't an identifier that one had entered into membership as one of God's chosen people? Odd.

The scriptures teach us that circumcision was a token.. which means that it is a sign.. it signifies something.. here's a reference from the OT..

[bible]Genesis 17:10-11[/bible]

Notice that it is a token between God and man.. and please notice that it happens to a man.. obviously a girl can not be circumcised in her flesh.. THAT IN ITSELF SHOULD SET OFF A FEW ALARMS..

Now, here is what it means spiritually..

[bible]Deuteronomy 30:6[/bible]

So, who is it that circumcises the heart..?

Obviously physical circumcision didn't save anyone.. I'm sure that Judas Iscariot was a circumcized Jew.. as were the Pharisees who delivered Him to Pilate.. did their cicumcision make them God's people.. no it didn't.. for not all Israel are Israel.. and circumcision is that of the heart, not of the flesh.

Then I guess the Jews misunderstood it, as do today's MJs.

The scriptures do reveal that many Jews missed it.. that they tried to establish their own righteousness, rather than submitting to the righteousness of God which is by FAITH..

So did the early Christians, the early Church fathers, and the last 2000 years of Sacramental Christendom when we apply the Sacrament of Baptism to a sign of entering the Church. We happen to think it's BOTH a sign of what needs to happen spiritually AND an outward symbol of entering the New Covenant. You seem to think it's only one of those.

It's not a sign of entering the church.. I was baptized as an infant and I was not a member of the church of God.. God made me a member of the church of God when He set me in place within His own body, after I trusted in Him, after I believed that He suffered and died for my sins..

I was baptized in water AFTER I repented and believed the gospel.. not before.. that doesn't make any sense.

And so I guess when Paul charges us to circumcise our hearts, he's really telling God to circumcise our hearts for us. If only that made any sense.

Could you please provide the scriptural reference where you're suggesting that Paul tells us to circumcise our hearts.. ?

Paul, in Ephesians, is talking to ADULT CONVERTS, reminding them of their situation. Show me evidence that what He is saying in this Scripture applies to everyone in the way you're interpreting it for all time.

Well, for starters.. there's no such thing as an infant convert.. and there are no scriptural references written concerning infants converting to Christ.. so what are you talking about here..?

And can you stretch the meaning of "entire households" to exclude infants? Because that doesn't make it true, either. However, when the Scriptures say everyone in their households, we take that to include the possibility of infants and young children. You, a priori, don't because of the way you interpret Scripture. If only your interpretation were backed up by 2,000 years of Christian history. I guess 99% of Christians throughout history were wrong about Baptism from the very beginning and you're right.

It's not a stretch at all when we consider the fact that there are ZERO accounts of infants being baptized in the scriptures.. that's ZERO.. not a one mentioned. There's not one time that the scriptures refer to an unbeliever being baptized either..

As for the last two thousand years.. consider that many Jews have been blinded by their religious minds for longer than that.. so it's nothing new.. in fact, it's even a precedent in scripture..

The Orthodox take the same stand on the salvation of everyone. I am not to judge whether or not someone is "saved". God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and His mercy is so thoroughly good. We don't baptize infants because we believe that the action will save them from the pit of hell.

No, but you DO declare that they are BORN AGAIN because of this act.. as if God is obligated to set them into place into His body because a priest dunks them in water..

No, we Baptize them so that they put on Christ, the New Covenant, just like Israel did with circumcision and the Old Covenant. And we affirm that our Baptism means little if, when we are accountable, we do not live a life of continual repentance and acceptance of Christ, daily.

So, if you think that this makes them members of the church of God, the body of Christ.. then you're as deceived as the Pharisees who believed that they were of the seed of Abraham because of their circumcision..

ETide · Oct 12, 2006

yeah.. perhaps it's time to get back to the primary topic.. if you folks would like, we can start another thread on infant baptism.. although it's not as though that horse hasn't been beaten to death..

irishseventysix · Oct 12, 2006

ETide said:
The scriptures teach us that circumcision was a token.. which means that it is a sign.. it signifies something.. here's a reference from the OT..

[bible]Genesis 17:10-11[/bible]

Notice that it is a token between God and man.. and please notice that it happens to a man.. obviously a girl can not be circumcised in her flesh.. THAT IN ITSELF SHOULD SET OFF A FEW ALARMS..

Now, here is what it means spiritually..

[bible]Deuteronomy 30:6[/bible]

So, who is it that circumcises the heart..?

Obviously physical circumcision didn't save anyone.. I'm sure that Judas Iscariot was a circumcized Jew.. as were the Pharisees who delivered Him to Pilate.. did their cicumcision make them God's people.. no it didn't.. for not all Israel are Israel.. and circumcision is that of the heart, not of the flesh.

The scriptures do reveal that many Jews missed it.. that they tried to establish their own righteousness, rather than submitting to the righteousness of God which is by FAITH..

It's not a sign of entering the church.. I was baptized as an infant and I was not a member of the church of God.. God made me a member of the church of God when He set me in place within His own body, after I trusted in Him, after I believed that He suffered and died for my sins..

I was baptized in water AFTER I repented and believed the gospel.. not before.. that doesn't make any sense.

Could you please provide the scriptural reference where you're suggesting that Paul tells us to circumcise our hearts.. ?

Well, for starters.. there's no such thing as an infant convert.. and there are no scriptural references written concerning infants converting to Christ.. so what are you talking about here..?

It's not a stretch at all when we consider the fact that there are ZERO accounts of infants being baptized in the scriptures.. that's ZERO.. not a one mentioned. There's not one time that the scriptures refer to an unbeliever being baptized either..

As for the last two thousand years.. consider that many Jews have been blinded by their religious minds for longer than that.. so it's nothing new.. in fact, it's even a precedent in scripture..

No, but you DO declare that they are BORN AGAIN because of this act.. as if God is obligated to set them into place into His body because a priest dunks them in water..

So, if you think that this makes them members of the church of God, the body of Christ.. then you're as deceived as the Pharisees who believed that they were of the seed of Abraham because of their circumcision..

Well, you got me there with Paul. He didn't tell us to circumcise our hearts.

But God, through Jeremiah, did in Jeremiah 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.

He may have been talking to the Jews, but it certainly seems to me that one is able to circumcise their heart.

I agree that circumcision was a sign. It was a sign that identified one as a Jew, as being in the line of Abraham.

And yes, the Pharisees COULD claim that they were of the literal, physical line of Abraham because they weren't physically disconnected from it. However, indeed, their hearts were not circumcised with faith in God, as Abraham had.

As Orthodox, we allow children to enter into the Church through Baptism and Chrismation. However, they are still responsible to live out that Baptism with faith as they grow. And in the meantime, they get to experience that grace of God to help in time of need as they grow in the life of the Church and experience God in the Sacraments.

I am not denying your experience. Not at all. I'm just saying that we have to participate with God in this process.

Do you declare yourself to be "born again"? Are you saying that God is now obligated to set you into His Holy Church?

We don't believe that infants are a part of the Church because a priest dunks them in water. Baptism is a grace-filled Sacrament. It's more than just a priest and water...it is His grace.

There are also ZERO accounts of the Apostles having been baptized, specifically, in the Scriptures. Are we to believe that the only people who were actually Baptized back then were the ones that the Scriptures explicity call out by name?

We're saying that Scripute INDICATES that children were baptized when the phrase "and their whole household" is used. How on earth would it NOT?

Oblio · Oct 12, 2006

I understand that you believe that it is the act of God.. although that doesn't make it true..

The strawman is that you are arguing against something we don't believe. Coming from a confession that stresses belief as the path to salvation, I find this a bit odd.

Well, imo.. 2 fits the situation.. deception founded on a mistaken impression.. and who knows.. perhaps even 1 is accurate as well.. there are many false teachers out there..

Except #2 didn't say that, it said:

a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression

And even if it did say that, you are accusing us of 'deception', whether or not it is based on a mistaken impression is irrelevant.

And if you hold to #1 in your previous discourses with EO/OO/RC/Anglican/Methodists/Lutherans et. al. members here, you are guilty of slander and false witness.

eoe · Oct 12, 2006

Quite the topic jungle in here...

Where to next ETide?

ModernDaySpyridon · Oct 12, 2006

The fact that the Bible mentions that entire "households" were baptized does make it seem probable that children and infants were included. "Now I did baptize the household of Stephanas . . . " (1 Corinthians 1:16) (An angel spoke to Cornelius saying) "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, and all your household " (Later, when Peter arrived at (Cornelius' household) "... he ordered them to be baptized."(Acts 11:13b, 14; Acts 10:48a) "And when she (Lydia of Thyatira) and her household had been baptized . . . " (Acts 16:15a) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household . . . and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. " (Acts 16:31, 33b) We know that the Greek word oikos, translated "house" or "household," has traditionally included infants and children in its meaning for several reasons. There is no evidence of this word being used either in secular Greek, Biblical Greek,or in the writing of Hellenistic Judaism in a way which would restrict its meaning only to adults. The Old Testament parallel for "house" carries the sense of the entire family. The Greek translation of the original Hebrew manuscripts (completed in 250 B.C.) uses this word when translating the Hebrew word meaning the complete family (men, women, children, infants). Similarly, we know that the phrase "he and his house" refers to the total family; the Old Testament use of this phrase clearly demonstrates this by specifically mentioning the presence of children and infants at times.

Acts 16:14-16
14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

Acts 16: 32-34
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Etide.

In all the scripture passages we have referenced above, by your interpretation, what is the meaning of "whole households" ?

ETide · Oct 12, 2006

eoe said:
Quite the topic jungle in here...

Where to next ETide?

I agree that this has gone way off course.. how did we get onto the topic of baptism..?

So, let's get back to the topic discussed in the OP.. because let's face it.. people have been baptizing infants for a long time now (myself included) and have been declaring that they're born again because of it.. this thread or multitudes of other threads are not going to change that.

So, back to our regularly scheduled program.. ;-)

ModernDaySpyridon · Oct 12, 2006

I just started a new thread in General Theology on Infant Baptism, so we can continue the fun.

Alchemist · Oct 12, 2006

Hi ETide

,

ETide said:
So, let's get back to the topic discussed in the OP.. because let's face it.. people have been baptizing infants for a long time now (myself included) and have been declaring that they're born again because of it.. this thread or multitudes of other threads are not going to change that.

So, back to our regularly scheduled program.. ;-)

Sure! Well then let me say that though Orthodox believe baptism to be a Holy Sacrament, which should be performed for both infants and new believers, and even for infants have a profound and real spiritual impact in their life, we too believe that anyone saying that infants are "born again" (if, by "born again", you mean "saved") at the moment of water baptism are indeed in error.

Our only point of disagreement is that you equate being baptised with the Holy Spirit with being saved; Orthodox reject this and believe that though one can receive the Holy Spirit, repenting fully of their sin, they can later turn their back on God and not be "saved", as you would define it. Well, and we believe that Bible explicitly tells us to baptise infants, as the Church has for 2000 years, but I guess that is (or at least, was) a separate issue

.

Peace,
Nick

WarriorAngel · Oct 13, 2006

Asinner said:
It is my perspective, that knowledge of God, firstly, yet not always, begins with a fear of Him and is continued through prayer, fasting, attaining of the Virtues, especially, purity of heart, Grace, attending divine services, the Sacraments, and edification through Holy Scripture. It is also my perspective, that if the truth of Him is revealed only through the scriptures, then not only is that limiting one's knowledge (since the eternal God transcends that which is written), but it then becomes an educated man's religion and thusly, neglects children, the unlearned, uneducated, and mentally impaired.

God Bless

I agree very much...for if we are NOT intelligent enough nor literate enough to read the written then what becomes of us??

DID He not come to save all??

Thus the Apostles taught road to road, town to town. Christ said to dust the feet off their sandals ......not to snatch the writings off of them.

.

AND now the question begs....for 1500 years without Bibles.....WHO did the Christians rely on??

Does this mean millions of faithful believers are in hell because they didnt read the Bible?

Asinner · Oct 13, 2006

Exactly.

God's Grace is not dependent upon my intelligence (praise His Holy Name

).

God Bless :liturgy:

ETide · Oct 13, 2006

Yeah really.. faith, repentance.. who needs that nonsense.. just dunk 'em and declare that they're Christians.. members of the body of Christ..

Hey.. if that's your testimony.. then that's your testimony..

Asinner · Oct 13, 2006

ETide said:
Yeah really.. faith, repentance.. who needs that nonsense.. just dunk 'em and declare that they're Christians.. members of the body of Christ..

Hey.. if that's your testimony.. then that's your testimony..

The difference is, Etide, that you put man's actions before God's. You claim one must first have faith and then God will add them to His Body. The Church, however, knows that God loves us before we can ever love Him. Baptism is a perfect expression of His Great Love. It is a Gift. Faith comes after He has extended His Grace to us and then through much toil and tears, repentance.

God Bless you!

ETide · Oct 13, 2006

Like I said.. if that's your testimony.. then that's your testimony.. dunk 'em and declare that they're members of the body of Christ..

Oblio · Oct 13, 2006

So your children are not part of your church ? Are they are not Christians ? Are they pagans ? Atheists ? They are either part of, or not part of the Body of Christ.

Oblio · Oct 13, 2006

dunk 'em and declare that they're members of the body of Christ..

BTW, it is God that declares them and makes them part of His Church.

ETide · Oct 13, 2006

Oblio said:
BTW, it is God that declares them and makes them part of His Church.

Well if you say so..

Orthodoxy runs on dunkin..

Oblio · Oct 13, 2006

ETide said:
Well if you say so..

Orthodoxy runs on dunkin..

Well you keep claiming what we believe, I'm just setting the record straight. Keep on claiming and misrepresenting, and we'll keep on correcting.

Alchemist · Oct 14, 2006

ETide said:
Yeah really.. faith, repentance.. who needs that nonsense.. just dunk 'em and declare that they're Christians.. members of the body of Christ..

Hey.. if that's your testimony.. then that's your testimony..

ETide,

Orthodox believe faith and repentance to be of vital importance to our relationship with God; indeed, the aim of every Orthodox person is to in love repent of our sin, and in faith accept God's forgiveness, in order to glorify Him. It makes me sad that due to our practise of infant baptism you have come to believe otherwise.

Peace,
Nick

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