Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

revduane said:

He doesn't want me praying to the dead, or any others besides Him. I can ask people to pray for me. But I ask righteous people, not dead people.

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There are no dead Christians.

There are Christians in this world, and there are Christians in the next. And, as has already been shown from Revelation, the Christians in eternity spend their time praising God, worshipping him, and interceding for the world.

But there are no dead ones.

St Luke:

The children of this world marry wives, and are married; but they which shall be made worthy to enjoy that world and the resurrection from death, neither marry wives, neither are married, nor yet can die any more. For they are equal unto the angels, and are the sons of God, inasmuch as they are the children of the resurrection. And that the dead shall rise again, even Moses signified besides the bush, when he said; the Lord God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not the God of the dead, but of them which live. For all live in him.

(Tyndale)

For the very early Church there is ALWAYS been a particular veneration for the Martyrs (=Saints)

There are huge of archeological proofes on that.
I have read a lot about the archeological building on the tombof St Peter in Rome, and it is scientifically that on about the 120-150 there was already an altar to honour St Peter.

The same can be found in lots of different places: in present Turkey and in Syria ad instance (to show that it was not an attitude only of Rome)

revduane said:

Elijah was not the righteousness of Christ. He had favor with God. Big difference between the OT, and the NT. You should know that.

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I thought Christ defeated death.......Does your bible say that? Mine does.

Scott_LaFrance said:

I thought Christ defeated death.......Does your bible say that? Mine does.

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And when is that victory over death declared for you and me?

1 Cr 15:52-55 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?



1 Cr 15:21-23 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ SHALL [Future tense] all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We are NOT made alive until the 2nd coming.

A man is only righteous when he is born-again, and lives on the earth.

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Really, where does Scripture say this, with these qualifiers ?

ThreeAM said:

And when is that victory over death declared for you and me?

1 Cr 15:52-55 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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And when did Christ achieve this victory?

Scott_LaFrance said:

And when did Christ achieve this victory?

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When he died on the cross and when he resuurected. And when is that victory applied to you and me. At our death or at our resurrection?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Lets look at some verses.

<H3>Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (New International Version)

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10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

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</H3>Praying to the Saints is not divination. Divination is trying to get knowledge of future events. Praying to the Saints is not sorcery. People who pray to the Saints are not mediums, spirisist. Nor do they consult the dead.

They ask Saints to pray with and for them. Also the Saints are not dead they are alive in Christ.


Peace

ThreeAM said:

When he died on the cross and when he resuurected. And when is that victory applied to you and me. At our death or at our resurrection?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

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You keep going on with the Old Covenant. I'll stick with the new one.

I am sure there are some born-again Christians who love the Lord dearly, yet have been deceived into thinking that their prayers are somehow not effective enough and that they need to pray to (or through) Mary or other dead people. I don't think that it will necessarily affect their salvation if they truly love the Lord and are saved and pray to God sometimes too. I am a bit concerned though because of the verses in the Bible like those in Matthew 7:13-23 - especially v. 23 where the Lord says "I never knew you." This was said to people who did works in His name, yet they were not known or approved by the Lord.
I think there are some similar verses elsewhere in the Bible, but can't remember right now.
But, I want to be one who contacts the Lord directly to ask Him His will and to pray to Him and know Him and have Him know me.
I worry that some people are deceived and praying to dead people and are distracted from the Lord by that and other things and when they do see the Lord, He will say He never knew them.
If we love the Lord, we should pray to Him, fellowship with Him, focus on Him and not worry about dead people. Even when the Lord Jesus was talking to the scribe in Matt. 8:19-22, He told Him "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead." He was not concerned with the dead, but with preaching the gospel to the living as we see in Luke 9:60.
Also, when the Lord was transfigured on the mount and Moses and Elijah were there, Peter wanted to make 3 tents for them thus putting Moses and Elijah on the same level with Christ and immediately the Lord overshadowed them and said "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him!"
We see clearly here that the Lord wanted people to focus on Christ - not on dead people or Saints or whatever you wish to say that Moses and Elijah were at that time.
Our focus, our goal, our heart's delight and everything should be Christ - not dead people. We don't need to pray to them and we should not because it causes us to put our attention on someone or something other than on Christ Himself.

Isaiah 8:19-22 (New International Version)

19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. 21 Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. 22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness.

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This is talking about those that consult mediums and spiritist. The CC and EOC probihit consulting mediums and spirists. This has nothing to do with praying to the Saints.

Peace

christianmomof3 said:

I am sure there are some born-again Christians who love the Lord dearly, yet have been deceived into thinking that their prayers are somehow not effective enough and that they need to pray to (or through) Mary or other dead people. I don't think that it will necessarily affect their salvation if they truly love the Lord and are saved and pray to God sometimes too. I am a bit concerned though because of the verses in the Bible like those in Matthew 7:13-23 - especially v. 23 where the Lord says "I never knew you." This was said to people who did works in His name, yet they were not known or approved by the Lord.
I think there are some similar verses elsewhere in the Bible, but can't remember right now.
But, I want to be one who contacts the Lord directly to ask Him His will and to pray to Him and know Him and have Him know me.
I worry that some people are deceived and praying to dead people and are distracted from the Lord by that and other things and when they do see the Lord, He will say He never knew them.
If we love the Lord, we should pray to Him, fellowship with Him, focus on Him and not worry about dead people. Even when the Lord Jesus was talking to the scribe in Matt. 8:19-22, He told Him "Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead." He was not concerned with the dead, but with preaching the gospel to the living as we see in Luke 9:60.
Also, when the Lord was transfigured on the mount and Moses and Elijah were there, Peter wanted to make 3 tents for them thus putting Moses and Elijah on the same level with Christ and immediately the Lord overshadowed them and said "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him!"
We see clearly here that the Lord wanted people to focus on Christ - not on dead people or Saints or whatever you wish to say that Moses and Elijah were at that time.
Our focus, our goal, our heart's delight and everything should be Christ - not dead people. We don't need to pray to them and we should not because it causes us to put our attention on someone or something other than on Christ Himself.

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Do you ask other people to pray for you?

Warrior4ChristAL said:

But how do you know that is what they are commissioned to do in Heaven for eternity is pray for you?

Does the Bible say so? NOPE!!

They are too busy worshipping God and spending time with Christ that they are not concerned with your every day life and trials. That is between you and the Lord and no other.

Sorry, but your ideas just don't come from the Bible but through church doctrine, which is totally different.

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What about the story of the man who see's his brother being tourtured by the flames of hell and wants to send a messager to his relatives on earth to warn them? It shows that there is concern by those in God's presence for us here. So all we are doing is asking those looking upon us here who went before us (as this story clearly depicts) to worship and pray for us still on earth.

[they] have been deceived into thinking that their prayers are somehow not effective enough and that they need to pray to (or through) Mary or other dead people.

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This is what is commonly refered to as a Strawman.

1 Samuel 28:3-20 (New International Version)

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.
4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all the Israelites and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."

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There is one in Endor," they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." 9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

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10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"

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14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

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16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

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What did Samuel do? He went to a medium and spirisist to talk with Saul fo rthe purpose of divination.

Nothing to do with praying to the Saints.

Peace

revduane said:

...I don't assume a thing. I read God's Word, and I don't play around with it. I don't take myself into the middle roads of abomination. Yes we need to be balanced as Christians, but if God says to not do something, then I will not do it, and take the chance of bringing a spirit into my midst, or my family's midst, by thinking I can be super technical, or by trying to fit God's Word into a doctrine of the micro management of Scripture....

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1 Tim. 2:11-15 – “Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.” Paul is emphasizing the woman’s primary role as the giver of natural life, just as a man’s primary role is the giver of supernatural life. Again, Paul bases his teaching on God’s order of creation.

1 Cor. 14:34-35 – “the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” Notice that Paul says women should be silent in churches “as even the law says.” In verse 37, he reiterates “what I am writing you is a command of the Lord.” Paul is explaining that forbidding women to speak in church is a divine command from Almighty God (and not sexist or culturally motivated).

So are you still insistant to take the literal word? You need to be consistent then and follow these simple two examples. Need more? Hehehe

Oblio said:

This is what is commonly refered to as a Strawman.

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Why? I don't understand that term. It is a scarecrow correct? I see that term thrown around on this board usually when there is something said that someone disagrees with, and they apparantly have no way to express why they think it is wrong and so they just use that term. Is that correct? If not, then please explain what is wrong with my statement instead of just calling it a straw man.

Here is a straw man I found.