Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

revduane

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First of all the Bible does not say that we can.

There is not one place in the Bible that David, Paul, Peter, Daniel, or Abraham ever prayed to the dead. Jesus certainly didn't. When Jesus taught us how to pray. He never said to pray to dead people. He didn't say to ask dead people to pray for us. Nor did He ask dead people to join Him in Prayer.

The Bible DOES say that necromancy (praying to the dead for divination) is an abomination before God.

"There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: And because of these abominations, the Lord thy
God doth drive them out before thee." Deuteronomy. 18:10-12.

Also see. 1 Samuel. 28:3-20..Isaiah 8:19-22.

It is very clear in the Bible that the punishment for talking to the dead for divination is very severe, if not repented of.

Praying to the dead might not be full blown necromancy, but it could easily be the first step to it. Just think about all of the people that have said that a dead person from the Bible, and or a saint came to visit them. That IS a form of necromancy, and usually never recognized as one. And it is an abomination before God, the Bible is clear about it, and there is no arguement.

If a person says they were visited, or whatever by a dead person saint or otherwise. They will never rebuke that spirit, because in the persons mind it is the saint, or the dead person they were talking or praying to, so Satan dupes them into believing in post mortem divination. God would not set up a system that would open the door for this kind of abomination.

It could be said that too many people are praying to saints at once, and that is why it fails. I still will not believe that god would set up a true system built to fail. Without man messing it up and choosing to sin.
 
Hi Rev. Hope you are doing well.:wave:

First of all the Bible does not say that we can.
The Bible does not say that we can brush our teeth or drive cars either.

There is not one place in the Bible that David, Paul, Peter, Daniel, or Abraham ever prayed to the dead. Jesus certainly didn't. When Jesus taught us how to pray. He never said to pray to dead people. He didn't say to ask dead people to pray for us. Nor did He ask dead people to join Him in Prayer.
They never brush their teeth or drive cars either. Not once does it say that you should ever eat bar-b-que or light fireworks on the 4th of July.

The Bible DOES say that necromancy (praying to the dead for divination) is an abomination before God.
LOL! Rev. You have to be kidding. Necromancy is totally different.

"There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: And because of these abominations, the Lord thy
God doth drive them out before thee." Deuteronomy. 18:10-12.

Also see. 1 Samuel. 28:3-20..Isaiah 8:19-22.
Cool.

It is very clear in the Bible that the punishment for talking to the dead for divination is very severe, if not repented of.
For the purpose of divination.....

Praying to the dead might not be full blown necromancy, but it could easily be the first step to it. Just think about all of the people that have said that a dead person from the Bible, and or a saint came to visit them. That IS a form of necromancy, and usually never recognized as one. And it is an abomination before God, the Bible is clear about it, and there is no arguement.
So when Moses appeared to Christ....

If a person says they were visited, or whatever by a dead person saint or otherwise. They will never rebuke that spirit, because in the persons mind it is the saint, or the dead person they were talking or praying to, so Satan dupes them into believing in post mortem divination. God would not set up a system that would open the door for this kind of abomination.
Speculation - I would likely wet myself and run away screaming. You really can not say what someone would do. I do agree that most visitations are likely delusion / deception tho.

It could be said that too many people are praying to saints at once, and that is why it fails.
You are maing an assumption that it fails.
At any rate you are falling into a few errors that are common...

Error 1 - You state that those that have gone before us in faith of Christ and in hope of the resurrection are dead. This is a denial of the single most fundamental aspect of Christainity that there is:

Christ is risen from the dead. By death he has destroyed death and to those in the tombs he has bestowed life.

Sheol has been opened and death has no sting. There is no more death. Those that have gone before us are very much alive.

Error 2 - You assume that those with Christ are subject to time in the same way that we are. They are not. They are outside of time - it does not matter how many people talk at once - this is all a matter of God's grace.


May God grant you that which is beneficial to your soul.:crosseo:
 
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good4u

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Ah ha...here we have a fundamental difference between protestants and those that are not.

Praying to saints and those that do not. It will not be settled this side of heaven.

Don't go there...
 
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Warrior4ChristAL

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Asinner said:
I don't ask the dead to pray for me. I ask those who are alive in Christ. As far as I'm concerned, those that have gone on before me and are with Christ are way more alive than those here in the flesh.

God Bless :)


But how do you know that is what they are commissioned to do in Heaven for eternity is pray for you?

Does the Bible say so? NOPE!!

They are too busy worshipping God and spending time with Christ that they are not concerned with your every day life and trials. That is between you and the Lord and no other.

Sorry, but your ideas just don't come from the Bible but through church doctrine, which is totally different.
 
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Sorry, but your ideas just don't come from the Bible but through church doctrine, which is totally different.
Your wild speculation on the habits of the Saints is founded in what exactly?

(Revelation 8:3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

(Revelation 8:4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
 
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Asinner

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Warrior4ChristAL said:
They are too busy worshipping God and spending time with Christ that they are not concerned with your every day life and trials. That is between you and the Lord and no other.

Sorry, but your ideas just don't come from the Bible but through church doctrine, which is totally different.

Please show me in the bible where it says that the saints are too busy and unconcerned with my salvation. Thank you. :)
 
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Warrior4ChristAL

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Asinner said:
Please show me in the bible where it says that the saints are too busy and unconcerned with my salvation. Thank you. :)


Right back at you.

Show me in the Bible where saints are sitting around heaven writing your prayers down and interceeding for you.

YOU CAN'T EITHER!!

However, I do know that saints are NOT ALL KNOWING.

Only God is that!
 
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Trento

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revduane said:
First of all the Bible does not say that we can.

There is not one place in the Bible that David, Paul, Peter, Daniel, or Abraham ever prayed to the dead. Jesus certainly didn't. When Jesus taught us how to pray. He never said to pray to dead people. He didn't say to ask dead people to pray for us. Nor did He ask dead people to join Him in Prayer.

The Bible DOES say that necromancy (praying to the dead for divination) is an abomination before God.

"There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: And because of these abominations, the Lord thy
God doth drive them out before thee." Deuteronomy. 18:10-12.

Also see. 1 Samuel. 28:3-20..Isaiah 8:19-22.

It is very clear in the Bible that the punishment for talking to the dead for divination is very severe, if not repented of.

Praying to the dead might not be full blown necromancy, but it could easily be the first step to it. Just think about all of the people that have said that a dead person from the Bible, and or a saint came to visit them. That IS a form of necromancy, and usually never recognized as one. And it is an abomination before God, the Bible is clear about it, and there is no arguement.

If a person says they were visited, or whatever by a dead person saint or otherwise. They will never rebuke that spirit, because in the persons mind it is the saint, or the dead person they were talking or praying to, so Satan dupes them into believing in post mortem divination. God would not set up a system that would open the door for this kind of abomination.

It could be said that too many people are praying to saints at once, and that is why it fails. I still will not believe that god would set up a true system built to fail. Without man messing it up and choosing to sin.

When the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach the same thing (as they often do) and Protestants teach something else, the Protestant doctrine is thereby known to be false. For example that the Blessed Virgin Mary bore no children other than the Lord Jesus is a doctrine contantly taught by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches from the beginning.
The united Catholic and Orthodox witness to this truth casts Protestant revisionism on Mary’s perpetual virginity into the outer darkness.
In other words, the fatuous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture against the united witness of Christian anitquity and the constant teaching of the ancient Churches is shown to be a deformation of the Gospel. This includes that there are seven sacraments (not two) given by the Lord Jesus to His Church; that Apostolic Succession in the historic episcopate is essential to the Church’s life and the faithful transmission of the Gospel; that an adequate Mariology is essential to the defense of a complete Christology; that the grace-filled reality of the Communion of Saints leads us to venerate those who stand now at the Throne of Grace and that the refusal to do this leads to a defective ecclesiology; that sacred images of Our Lord, His holy Mother, and all the saints are not only permitted but required by the Mystery of the Incarnation; that the Real Presence of Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist is a truth revealed in Holy Scripture.
Your problem is that then one is obliged to trust his own knowlege and wisdom above the unaminous testimony of the Church from the beginning, and so we are back to the quicksand under the feet of Protestants everywhere: the problem of many authorities
 
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Warrior4ChristAL said:
Show me in the Bible where saints are sitting around heaven writing your prayers down and interceeding for you.


I believe that "love never faileth" (I Cor. 13:8). For those with Christ, how much more is their love for their brethren than when they were in the flesh? Their love is now perfect.

God Bless :)
 
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revduane

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eoe said:
Hi Rev. Hope you are doing well.:wave:


The Bible does not say that we can brush our teeth or drive cars either.


They never brush their teeth or drive cars either. Not once does it say that you should ever eat bar-b-que or light fireworks on the 4th of July.


LOL! Rev. You have to be kidding. Necromancy is totally different.


Cool.


For the purpose of divination.....


So when Moses appeared to Christ....


Speculation - I would likely wet myself and run away screaming. You really can not say what someone would do. I do agree that most visitations are likely delusion / deception tho.


You are maing an assumption that it fails.
At any rate you are falling into a few errors that are common...

Error 1 - You state that those that have gone before us in faith of Christ and in hope of the resurrection are dead. This is a denial of the single most fundamental aspect of Christainity that there is:

Christ is risen from the dead. By death he has destroyed death and to those in the tombs he has bestowed life.

Sheol has been opened and death has no sting. There is no more death. Those that have gone before us are very much alive.

Error 2 - You assume that those with Christ are subject to time in the same way that we are. They are not. They are outside of time - it does not matter how many people talk at once - this is all a matter of God's grace.


May God grant you that which is beneficial to your soul.:crosseo:

Jesus died for the second death, not the first.

I don't assume a thing. I read God's Word, and I don't play around with it. I don't take myself into the middle roads of abomination. Yes we need to be balanced as Christians, but if God says to not do something, then I will not do it, and take the chance of bringing a spirit into my midst, or my family's midst, by thinking I can be super technical, or by trying to fit God's Word into a doctrine of the micro management of Scripture.

There are exceptions. God says thou shall not kill. I don't kill. But if an intruder comes into my house without my permission to do bad things to my family or me, he will meet Mr. 44 mag.

Ghosts to not inhabit the earth. Only spirits of creation. Angels, or demons take your pick. Angels must do the bidding of God, they have no choice. Satan is also an angel. He has to flee when we rebuke him, and resist him. Such is our authority in Jesus Name.

It is written that ferverent prayers of a righteous man avails much. A man is only righteous when he is born-again, and lives on the earth. When he goes through the first death, and is with God, he is no longer righteous, he is perfect, and has passed into perfection.

As far as Moses is concerned. It was written the Jesus was also bright, and spectacular. Moses is His, and He spent some time with Moses. Jesus' business not mine. I don't know or pretend to know all of God's intentions, and desires for His will. But it is up to me to read, understand, and obey His Word. Also to seek His will for my life. My purpose is not to please people. But to please God. And as I please God, I please people, by being obedient to love my neighbor.

I will not be moved from my position on the Word of God. My whole terrible past was worked out, by the Word of God, and I know what he wants from me.

He doesn't want me praying to the dead, or any others besides Him. I can ask people to pray for me. But I ask righteous people, not dead people.
 
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revduane

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Trento said:
When the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach the same thing (as they often do) and Protestants teach something else, the Protestant doctrine is thereby known to be false. For example that the Blessed Virgin Mary bore no children other than the Lord Jesus is a doctrine contantly taught by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches from the beginning.
The united Catholic and Orthodox witness to this truth casts Protestant revisionism on Mary’s perpetual virginity into the outer darkness.
In other words, the fatuous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture against the united witness of Christian anitquity and the constant teaching of the ancient Churches is shown to be a deformation of the Gospel. This includes that there are seven sacraments (not two) given by the Lord Jesus to His Church; that Apostolic Succession in the historic episcopate is essential to the Church’s life and the faithful transmission of the Gospel; that an adequate Mariology is essential to the defense of a complete Christology; that the grace-filled reality of the Communion of Saints leads us to venerate those who stand now at the Throne of Grace and that the refusal to do this leads to a defective ecclesiology; that sacred images of Our Lord, His holy Mother, and all the saints are not only permitted but required by the Mystery of the Incarnation; that the Real Presence of Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist is a truth revealed in Holy Scripture.
Your problem is that then one is obliged to trust his own knowlege and wisdom above the unaminous testimony of the Church from the beginning, and so we are back to the quicksand under the feet of Protestants everywhere: the problem of many authorities

Islam teaches that they are the true believers. They are many millions strong. How do you know they are wrong?
 
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revduane

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Scott_LaFrance said:
Can we keep debating this topic? Yes.

Should we keep debating this topic......

I wrote it as a bible study. It was taken into debate from there.

I don't assume that anyone that would debate this topic with me, would see it differently tommorrow. I can't change hearts. That is up to God.

I will continue to post things that go against doctrines that teach contrary to the Word of God, just to give new christians a good chance to grow mature without murky doctrine, and tradition.
 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch

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revduane said:
I will continue to post things that go against doctrines that teach contrary to the Word of God, just to give new christians a good chance to grow mature without murky doctrine, and tradition.

The ancient Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters who the bibles says are alive in Christ (the saints) for their intercession has come under attack recently. The practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Protestant denominations such as the Anglicans; therefore it is shared by the vast majority the Christians.

The Bible, when properly understood, directs the Faithful to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. In Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). In Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

John also shows that those in heaven offer to God our prayers. John sees that "the twenty-four elders the leaders of the people of God in heaven fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Yours in Christ.
 
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Trento

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revduane said:
Islam teaches that they are the true believers. They are many millions strong. How do you know they are wrong?
strawman.jpg
 
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Asinner

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The Kingdom of God is eternal, as Christ is eternal; therefore, all who are members of His Body are eternal as well. Those who are in heaven are a part of His Kingdom, just as we, in the flesh ,are a part of It also. We are ONE. Death does not separate us from each other, for we are united in Christ. The death of our flesh gives life to our prayer, for without the hindrances of this world and the flesh, those alive in Christ are free to pray unceasingly for their brethren who are still in the flesh. This duty of prayer begins here on earth and is fulfilled in the monastics who pray day and night for the salvation of the world. How much more then, would those who are with Christ, pray for us who are in the flesh?


Patristic and Scriptural Testimony said:
Righteous Job the Long-Suffering (1000 &#8211; 300 BC)

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).
Book of Tobit (~ 200 &#8211; 100 BC)

When thou didst pray with tears&#8230; I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit xii, 12)
St. John the Evangelist (+101)

And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc., viii, 3, 4)
St. Cyprian of Carthage (+258), writing to Pope Cornelius of Rome

Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father.[iv]
St. Hilary of Poitiers (+368)

To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting.[v]
St. Ephraim the Syrian (+373)

Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day.[vi]
Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him.[vii]
St. Athanasius the Great, Patriarch of Alexandria (+373)

Christ became man that men might become gods[viii]
&#8220;In one of his letters, St. Basil [the Great] explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers. (Chapter 8)
&#8220;St. Gregory of Nyssa asks St. Theodore the Martyr &#8230;to fervently pray to our Common King, our God, for the country and the people (Encomium to Martyr Theodore).
&#8220;The same language is used by St. Gregory the Theologian in his encomium to St. Cyprian. St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).&#8221;[ix]
St. Basil the Great, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)

According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.[x]
We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love him.[xi]
O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors![xii]
Liturgy of St. Basil the Great

By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us.[xiii]
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (+386)

We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv]
St. Gregory the Theologian, Patriarch of Constantinople; of Nazianzus in Asia Minor (+389)

Mayest thou [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before Which thou standest.[xv]
St. Gregory of Nyssa in Lower Armenia (+395-400)

...I wish to commemorate one person who spoke of their noble testimony because I am close to Ibora, the village and resting place of these forty martyrs' remains. Here the Romans keep a register of soldiers, one of whom was a guard ordered by his commander to protect against invasions, a practice common to soldiers in such remote areas. This man suffered from an injured foot which was later amputated. Being in the martyrs' resting place, he earnestly beseeched God and the intercession of the saints. One night there appeared a man of venerable appearance in the company of others who said, "Oh soldier, do you want to be healed [J.167] of your infirmity? Give me your foot that I may touch it." When he awoke from the dream, his foot was completely healed. Once he awoke from this vision, his foot was restored to health. He roused the other sleeping men because he was immediately cured and made whole. This men then began to proclaim the miracle performed by the martyrs and acknowledged the kindness bestowed by these fellow soldiers&#8230;. We who freely and boldly enter paradise are strengthened by the [martyrs'] intercession through a noble confession in our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.[xvii]
Do thou, [St. Ephraim the Syrian] that art standing at the Divine altar, and art ministering with angels to the life-giving and most Holy Trinity, bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom.[xviii]
St. Ambrose of Milan (+397)

May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benignant countenance.[xix]
St. Jerome, b. Dalmatia, d. Palestine (+419)

If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses, obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion?[xx]
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria (+407)

When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[xxi]
He that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead.[xxii]
St. Augustine of Hippo, in North Africa (+430)

At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.[xxiii]

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx

God Bless :)
 
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Jesus died for the second death, not the first.
How old is this doctrine?

I don't assume a thing. I read God's Word, and I don't play around with it. I don't take myself into the middle roads of abomination. Yes we need to be balanced as Christians, but if God says to not do something, then I will not do it, and take the chance of bringing a spirit into my midst, or my family's midst, by thinking I can be super technical, or by trying to fit God's Word into a doctrine of the micro management of Scripture.
Cool. Don't do it then.

There are exceptions. God says thou shall not kill. I don't kill. But if an intruder comes into my house without my permission to do bad things to my family or me, he will meet Mr. 44 mag.
So your morality is relative?

Ghosts to not inhabit the earth. Only spirits of creation. Angels, or demons take your pick. Angels must do the bidding of God, they have no choice.
Huh?

Satan is also an angel. He has to flee when we rebuke him, and resist him. Such is our authority in Jesus Name.
Um. There were several lesser demons that did not flee until Christ sent them away through prayer and fasting. You are outside of the realm of hard core bible doctrine that you stated so boldly in the beginning.

It is written that ferverent prayers of a righteous man avails much.

AMEN! You are absolutely right. It says that right after it says that we are supposed to confess our sins to one another. Of course you do confess to one another right? You would not want to apply one side of the vese without the other would you?
A man is only righteous when he is born-again, and lives on the earth.
Make sure that you tell Elijah that please.
When he goes through the first death, and is with God, he is no longer righteous, he is perfect, and has passed into perfection.
Where are you Rev? Earth to Rev....


As far as Moses is concerned. It was written the Jesus was also bright, and spectacular. Moses is His, and He spent some time with Moses. Jesus' business not mine. I don't know or pretend to know all of God's intentions, and desires for His will. But it is up to me to read, understand, and obey His Word.
Good. How about this?
(2 Thessalonians 2:15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


Also to seek His will for my life. My purpose is not to please people. But to please God. And as I please God, I please people, by being obedient to love my neighbor.
Cool. Offtopic but cool.

I will not be moved from my position on the Word of God. My whole terrible past was worked out, by the Word of God, and I know what he wants from me.
He wants you raise dissent on some internet forum? He wants you to kick dead horses? What is it that you are trying to accomplish here with this thread? Convince people that their 2000 year old practices are wrong?

I will not be moved from my standpoint that there is no death.
 
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revduane

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IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
The ancient Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters who the bibles says are alive in Christ (the saints) for their intercession has come under attack recently. The practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Protestant denominations such as the Anglicans; therefore it is shared by the vast majority the Christians.

The Bible, when properly understood, directs the Faithful to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. In Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). In Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

John also shows that those in heaven offer to God our prayers. John sees that "the twenty-four elders the leaders of the people of God in heaven fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Yours in Christ.

When you use a web-site to help you quote your views, try not to write it word for word. It is tacky and planned.


http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1631/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#

See Post number 2.
 
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ScottBot

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revduane said:
I wrote it as a bible study. It was taken into debate from there.

I don't assume that anyone that would debate this topic with me, would see it differently tommorrow. I can't change hearts. That is up to God.

I will continue to post things that go against doctrines that teach contrary to the Word of God, just to give new christians a good chance to grow mature without murky doctrine, and tradition.
Correction... that they go against the Word of God, in your own interpretation.
 
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