Questions to the atheists

ApocryphaNow said:

I am not sure if I know what eternal bliss is, but I can think of two conditions for this. First, I could assume that eternal bliss exists, in which case it will be found instananeously (on this scale) and last infinitely. This begs the question: what would be the difference between any two blissful days... and would it matter?

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Instantaneous discovery is not a necessity from an infinite amount of time. The scale has no bearing on when the discovery is seemingly made if we are dealing with a lineal infinity. Events would still occur in sequence, and as such, it would still make sense to give names to the days, hours, and minutes.

Why do you believe the question is begged? The state of being, once achieved, can last for the rest of eternity or fade in and out. The absence of death does not preclude emotional distress. I am sure it would matter to the being in the pursuit.

The second is that eternal bliss does not exist. In this case, the search itself would be the supposed gain. Here we have the paradox of the impossible task over an unlimited amount of time that is so familiar to Greek religion/philosophy. Unfortunately, these things are more instructive for us, the mortal, than they are useful at solving the problem. In this sense, time may as well be "frozen" as "infinite."

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The problem will not be solved until we can experimentally examine it. Since eternal existence is beyond our means, I don't think we'll be getting any where any time soon.

Where does a flame go when you blow it out?

Burning is a process. When burning ends, there is no flame.

Life is a process. When life ends, there is no me.

copticorthodoxy said:

the most fact in this world is the death , all the humans will die , there is no exception

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And all humans will live too.

copticorthodoxy said:

what the atheists thoughts about death ?

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It is when life ends. I will no longer be alive.

copticorthodoxy said:

do you fear from death ?

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Before I was alive I felt no fear, after I am alive I will feel no fear.

As I am alive now I do not fear death.

copticorthodoxy said:

what you feel when you see any of your close friends or relatives died ?

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Sad, I miss them.

copticorthodoxy said:

what is your hope about the eternal life ??

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I have no hope about 'eternal life', it is fiction.

copticorthodoxy said:

What if God exists !!

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Which god ? Ganesh the elephant headed diety of Hinduism ?

What exactly is the question here ?

Danhalen said:

Instantaneous discovery is not a necessity from an infinite amount of time. The scale has no bearing on when the discovery is seemingly made if we are dealing with a lineal infinity. Events would still occur in sequence, and as such, it would still make sense to give names to the days, hours, and minutes.

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A linearity of time assumes a begining and an end with which to reference. An arbitrary point could, indeed, be picked on which to measure time in forward and reverse (infinite in both directions), but the positions of this point does not matter, and for all purposes "instananeously" would be the same as "a hundred billion trillion years later." Imagine the distance between the Earth and sun. Now, imagine a camera that capture the Earth on the left side of the screen and the Sun on the very edge of the right. Now the camera pulls back... a million miles... a billion miles... a googleplex of miles... a googleplex raised to the googleplex power miles. Can you distinguish between the Earth and the Sun?

Danhalen said:

Why do you believe the question is begged? The state of being, once achieved, can last for the rest of eternity or fade in and out. The absence of death does not preclude emotional distress. I am sure it would matter to the being in the pursuit.

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On an eternal "time scale" tomorrow and a trillion years later would be spurious notions. The amount of time in-between doesn't matter because there is no reference frame for time.

Danhalen said:

The problem will not be solved until we can experimentally examine it. Since eternal existence is beyond our means, I don't think we'll be getting any where any time soon.

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I doubt this problem is solvable and I do not thing I wish to see it solved. We are mortal and we must live and die with it. If you reach eternity when you die, and it is possible to comprend, please come back and tell me all about it.

David Gould said:

Where does a flame go when you blow it out?

Burning is a process. When burning ends, there is no flame.

Life is a process. When life ends, there is no me.

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Alas! If I only had the gift of stating complex things as simply! Good job.

ApocryphaNow said:

A linearity of time assumes a begining and an end with which to reference.

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The OP references our lives asthey are now, but without an end. Therefore there is a beginning point, which is all that is required for a lineal infinite sequence. There is no need for an end.

An arbitrary point could, indeed, be picked on which to measure time in forward and reverse (infinite in both directions), but the positions of this point does not matter, and for all purposes "instananeously" would be the same as "a hundred billion trillion years later."

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What makes you think time would be irrelevent to a being that lives forever? If I knew I would live forever, I would still recognize the difference between one minute and one billion years. They would only be trivial in reference to the amount of time I will persist, but not trivial to the division of time.

Imagine the distance between the Earth and sun. Now, imagine a camera that capture the Earth on the left side of the screen and the Sun on the very edge of the right. Now the camera pulls back... a million miles... a billion miles... a googleplex of miles... a googleplex raised to the googleplex power miles. Can you distinguish between the Earth and the Sun?

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The flaw in this analogy is time cannot be viewed in the same manner as an expanse in space. Time can only be observed in the sequence in which it passes.

On an eternal "time scale" tomorrow and a trillion years later would be spurious notions. The amount of time in-between doesn't matter because there is no reference frame for time.

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Why do you keep saying this? If I begin to exist now, and never cease to exist henceforth, the reference is from the beginning point.

I doubt this problem is solvable and I do not thing I wish to see it solved. We are mortal and we must live and die with it. If you reach eternity when you die, and it is possible to comprend, please come back and tell me all about it.

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I don't think it is a real problem. I think it's a mind game made up for the sake of mental masturbation. I don't want to go blind.

copticorthodoxy said:

what the atheists thoughts about death ? do you fear from death ? what you feel when you see any of your close friends or relatives died ? what is your hope about the eternal life ?? What if God exists !!

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It might be nice if a God existed to give us eternal life, but I don't believe that one (or more) does exist. Wishing something to be so doesn't make it so. It would be nice if I had superpowers like Superman, but I don't.

As to "thoughts about death", my thoughts are mainly about life! It is life that matters, not death. Life, as I see it, is an end-in-itself, not merely a means to death. Life is worth something in itself, regardless of death. Life is something to be cherished, and is perhaps all the more precious because it is finite.

I do not fear death. I do not want to die soon because I love my life, but I do not fear being nonexistent. There is nothing to fear there.

My mother died about eight years ago. This was quite a shock to me, however, I faced her death and nonexistence squarely. I did not lie to myself that she had found some afterlife. I found that this helped with the grieving process. There was a cleanness and honesty to this approach that allowed me to glide through the grieving and regain my emotional balance.

My thoughts of her are mainly about her life -- what she did and what she meant to me -- and not about the fact that she is dead. Again, it is life that matters, however brief it may be.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Danhalen said:

The OP references our lives asthey are now, but without an end. Therefore there is a beginning point, which is all that is required for a lineal infinite sequence. There is no need for an end.

What makes you think time would be irrelevent to a being that lives forever? If I knew I would live forever, I would still recognize the difference between one minute and one billion years. They would only be trivial in reference to the amount of time I will persist, but not trivial to the division of time.

The flaw in this analogy is time cannot be viewed in the same manner as an expanse in space. Time can only be observed in the sequence in which it passes.

Why do you keep saying this? If I begin to exist now, and never cease to exist henceforth, the reference is from the beginning point.

I don't think it is a real problem. I think it's a mind game made up for the sake of mental masturbation. I don't want to go blind.

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Danhalen, you are a thinking man, and I enjoy encountering that among people. I am glad that you are willing to argue with me; you are as I was once. Unfortunately, Bacchus is upon me at the moment, so I am of no further use in this discussion. I will, however, gladly continue it in the 'morrow.




I think that you will find, as I have, that eternity is a thing best left to speculation. Much can be said on it, but little gained. Such a grand farse is this universe!

copticorthodoxy said:

why you worry about the death of those you love ?? if you have a hope of the eternal life you will not worry about them ...

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If you had a relative who was an atheist, would you worry?

there is an old story from the Coptic ( Egyptian )Orthodox Christian traditions . it is a story about a monk and atheist , once an atheist saw a christian monk living a poor life , spend his time in praying and fasting and help others . the atheist told him " you are wasting your life in this things and at the end there is no God to repay all that for you , go and enjoy your life " ... the monk answered him i am enjoying my spirtual life like this and if there is no God i will not lose anything , but tell me what you will do if after your death you discovered that there is a God !!

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The problem with this and any other form of Pascal's Wager is that it ignores the issue of integrity.

What is the right thing for both the atheist and the monk to do? Live with integrity, each in the way authentic to him. The atheist and the monk should both do what they honestly believe to be the correct thing to do, not waste time telling each other how to live in a way inauthentic to their deepest beliefs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

If you had a relative who was an atheist, would you worry?



The problem with this and any other form of Pascal's Wager is that it ignores the issue of integrity.

What is the right thing for both the atheist and the monk to do? Live with integrity, each in the way authentic to him. The atheist and the monk should both do what they honestly believe to be the correct thing to do, not waste time telling each other how to live in a way inauthentic to their deepest beliefs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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Yeah I agree with this in all but one aspect, and that is that in religion you are told that you are supposed to convert (or save) others, not something I agree with personally, but still a part of many religious belifes, so by saying the monk should not waste his time telling people how to live you already effectivly are telling him not to belive what he does.

DeepThinker said:

Yeah I agree with this in all but one aspect, and that is that in religion you are told that you are supposed to convert (or save) others, not something I agree with personally, but still a part of many religious belifes, so by saying the monk should not waste his time telling people how to live you already effectivly are telling him not to belive what he does.

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On a further not I should add that as a Christian I do think people should learn the truths about what Christians belive but after this I think it is up to them, to badger someone into beliving does not work anyway

DeepThinker said:

Yeah I agree with this in all but one aspect, and that is that in religion you are told that you are supposed to convert (or save) others, not something I agree with personally, but still a part of many religious belifes, so by saying the monk should not waste his time telling people how to live you already effectivly are telling him not to belive what he does.

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Good point.


eudaimonia,

Mark

copticorthodoxy said:

SO what is the diffrence between the human and the animal ?? both of them live and die and nothing else !!!

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What is your point in writing this?


eudaimonia,

Mark

ApocryphaNow said:

Danhalen, you are a thinking man, and I enjoy encountering that among people. I am glad that you are willing to argue with me; you are as I was once.

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You mean, you just argued for the sake of argument?

Unfortunately, Bacchus is upon me at the moment, so I am of no further use in this discussion. I will, however, gladly continue it in the 'morrow.

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How is getting tanked an unfortunate thing? I just hope your binge doesn't end like the Bacchanalia. It would be difficult for you to respond without the use of your limbs.

I think that you will find, as I have, that eternity is a thing best left to speculation. Much can be said on it, but little gained. Such a grand farse is this universe!

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I was never under the impression eternity was a real thing. I was merely arguing under the pretext of the OP. It's good table talk, but that's about it.

If there was an afterlife that lasted for eternity what would be the point?

You would go out day after day talking to others living in some kind of paradise? Well, even paradise can get boring sooner or later. My question to you beleivers is how do you exactly see the afterlife/eterntiy?

I asked myself that same question just before i became christian and i still find myself asking it again even though i have a rough idea of what there is to come - and you find yourself saying. Is it worth it to live the way God wants me to for my whole life for that?
Assuming what our church preaches is right [it isnt always] heaven isn't so much as a place but a state of being with God. There is so boredom, sadness, depression or pain in heaven. So all that you feel is positive. Which is hard enough to imagine - but your entire eternal life is spend in awe of God and praising him etc.
But the ideas around this are pretty stetchy, theres not alot of biblical truths in it and yet it's the most commonly believed.

copticorthodoxy said:

the most fact in this world is the death , all the humans will die , there is no exception
what the atheists thoughts about death ? do you fear from death ? what you feel when you see any of your close friends or relatives died ? what is your hope about the eternal life ?? What if God exists !!

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I do not fear death it is natural

When my close friends and relatives die i feel the same way as anybody else would but i have extra comfort in knowing there is no afterlife.

There is no reason to believe that god exists.

I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in any kind of post death experience, and I don't fear death. Due in part to my hate of myself and my fellow man, and my negative life outlook. Meh, both are subject to change, I suppose.

EDIT- Oh yeah, I don't feel bad when other people die, because I see it as them being "released" from a life of (primarily) suffering.

Mistadobalina said:

I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in any kind of post death experience, and I don't fear death. Due in part to my hate of myself and my fellow man, and my negative life outlook. Meh, both are subject to change, I suppose.

EDIT- Oh yeah, I don't feel bad when other people die, because I see it as them being "released" from a life of (primarily) suffering.

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Geeze man your life must realy suck!

Mabey you should find something to belive in even if its just to help your emotional well being, you can argue with me till the cows come come but those who are religious do "tend" to like themselves a bit more.