Help Understanding Haggai 2:10-14

Boanerge · Apr 26, 2006

I was studying the topic of Holiness and I came across these verses from Haggai:

Haggai Chapter 2 (The Complete Jewish Bible Version) said:
10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month in the second year of Daryavesh, this word of ADONAI came through Hagai the prophet:
11 "Here is what ADONAI-Tzva'ot says: 'Ask the cohanim what the Torah says about this: 12 if someone carries meat that has been set aside as holy in a fold of his cloak; and then he lets his cloak touch bread, stew, wine, olive oil or any other food; does that food become holy too?'" The cohanim answered, "No." 13 Then Hagai asked, "If someone who is unclean from having had contact with a corpse touches any of these [food items], will they become unclean?" The cohanim answered, "They become unclean." 14 Hagai then said, "'That is the condition of this people, that is the condition of this nation before me,' says ADONAI, 'and that is the condition of everything their hands produce; so that anything they offer there is unclean.

From what I understand, the cohanim/priests believed that holiness was not contagious (didnt spread to other things) while unholiness did. Since Haggai didnt correct them, I guess he agreed with them.

However, I also found these verses in Exodus that seem to conflict with the idea that holiness doesnt spread:

Exodus 29:37 said:
Seven days you will make atonement on the altar and consecrate it; thus the altar will be especially holy, and whatever touches the altar will become holy.

Exodus 30:27-29 said:
27 the table and all its utensils, the menorah and all its utensils, the incense altar, 28 the altar for burnt offerings and all its utensils, and the basin with its base. 29 You are to consecrate them - they will be especially holy, and whatever touches them will be holy.

also

Leviticus 6:18 said:
18 Every male descendant of Aharon may eat from it; it is his share of the offerings for ADONAI made by fire forever through all your generations. Whatever touches those offerings will become holy.

And how about what Jesus Christ said about uncleanliness:

Matthew 15:15-20 said:
15 Kefa said to him, "Explain the parable to us." 16 So he said, "Don't you under stand even now? 17 Don't you see that anything that enters the mouth goes into the stomach and passes out into the latrine? 18 But what comes out of your mouth is actually coming from your heart, and that is what makes a person unclean. 19 For out of the heart come forth wicked thoughts, murder, adultery and other kinds of sexual immorality, theft, lies, slanders. . . . 20 These are what really make a person unclean, but eating without doing n'tilat-dayim does not make a person unclean."

Here I believe Jesus Christ is saying that eating something defiled will not defile the person. Compared to what is said in Haggai, and throughout the five books, which says that touching something defiled will defile a person, there seems to be a big difference.What exactly is going on here?

As far as I can comprehend, holiness can spread to the immediate thing touching that which is sanctified as holy (for example the cloak holding the sacrificed meat). Any other thing that touches indirectly does not become holy, (For example the bread touched by the cloak but not the meat.)

As for what Jesus Christ says about unclean things, I dont quite understand, since exodus and leviticus say that things on the outside can defile a person, like eating food that is not kosher, or touching a dead body.

Can anyone explain this more clearly?thnx

Tishri1 · Apr 26, 2006

Boanerge said:
I was studying the topic of Holiness and I came across these verses from Haggai:

From what I understand, the cohanim/priests believed that holiness was not contagious (didnt spread to other things) while unholiness did. Since Haggai didnt correct them, I guess he agreed with them.

However, I also found these verses in Exodus that seem to conflict with the idea that holiness doesnt spread:

also

And how about what Jesus Christ said about uncleanliness:

Here I believe Jesus Christ is saying that eating something defiled will not defile the person. Compared to what is said in Haggai, and throughout the five books, which says that touching something defiled will defile a person, there seems to be a big difference.What exactly is going on here?

As far as I can comprehend, holiness can spread to the immediate thing touching that which is sanctified as holy (for example the cloak holding the sacrificed meat). Any other thing that touches indirectly does not become holy, (For example the bread touched by the cloak but not the meat.)

As for what Jesus Christ says about unclean things, I dont quite understand, since exodus and leviticus say that things on the outside can defile a person, like eating food that is not kosher, or touching a dead body.

Can anyone explain this more clearly?thnx

read the begining of the chapter for the context and the subject.....it's not about food at all but about ritual hand washing....which was a fence the Rabbi's put up to put a burden on the people....something Yeshua was correcting on the spot it looks like...get it spot , unclean,washing hehehe ^_^

oh well I tried :sorry:

Torah · Apr 26, 2006

Greetings Boanerge :wave:

Boanerge when ever the word FOOD appears in the Bible whether old or New Testament it is always referring to Lev 11: 1-47 in other words what animals did God create to be used as food?God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may
eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food. Its not food. Just animals.

SO! In light of what is FOOD?. The issue becomes clear of what this disagreement was about.

Mark 7: 1-3
The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and
Saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed.
(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. (They believe demons hang onto peoples hands. This is a man-made tradition and not in Torah.)
18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean'?
Jesus was talking to Jews. What they were eating was not the issue. It was the ceremonial unclean hands that made the kosher food unclean. According to there man made tradition.
19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."

The fact is All FOOD is clean. He was speaking to Jews after all. The issue was hand washing. [But even if he was talking to Gentiles FOOD is still FOOD. And "FOOD will not make one unclean.]
Shalom

shmuel · Apr 26, 2006

Boanerge when ever the word “FOOD” appears in the Bible whether old or New Testament it is always referring to Lev 11: 1-47 in other words what animals did God create to be used as food?God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said… 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may
eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food. I

This is simply not true. Biblical Hebrew uses several words that are translated by the English word "food". They have semantic ranges similar to the English word. They are not restricted to that which is kosher, but can refer to that which is eaten by man or beast or even figuratively.

The word used in Lev 11:34 is 'okhel (alef-kaf-lamed). The same word is used in Ps 104:21 and Job 9:29, 38:41, 39:29 to refer to that eaten by wild animals, eagles, and ravens. I doubt that these creatures keep kosher.

stone · Apr 26, 2006

Tishri1 said:
read the begining of the chapter for the context and the subject.....it's not about food at all but about ritual hand washing....which was a fence the Rabbi's put up to put a burden on the people....something Yeshua was correcting on the spot it looks like...get it spot , unclean,washing heheheoh well I tried

hey, made me laugh. :wave:

stone · Apr 26, 2006

shmuel said:
This is simply not true. Biblical Hebrew uses several words that are translated by the English word "food". They have semantic ranges similar to the English word. They are not restricted to that which is kosher, but can refer to that which is eaten by man or beast or even figuratively.

The word used in Lev 11:34 is 'okhel (alef-kaf-lamed). The same word is used in Ps 104:21 and Job 9:29, 38:41, 39:29 to refer to that eaten by wild animals, eagles, and ravens. I doubt that these creatures keep kosher.

but wouldn't the word in its context clearly demonstrate that it is speaking of what a animals food is? Since it was Y-shua speaking to men, then, in the context it would be what men call food, jewish men. right?

shmuel · Apr 26, 2006

but wouldn't the word in its context clearly demonstrate that it is speaking of what a animals food is? Since it was Y-shua speaking to men, then, in the context it would be what men call food, jewish men. right?

I would say so, but Torah made the statement that implies that whenever the word food appears in the Bible it is referring to that which is kosher. That is the point that I am addressing. I believe that Torah makes the blanket statement about food to get around statements like Gen 9:3, which is a problem for his theology. BTW the word in Gen 9:3 is 'okhlah meaning more generally "eating". It appears in the expression "every moving (creeping) thing that lives will be to you for eating".

Torah · Apr 26, 2006

In the context of what I was saying it is true.

As I was speaking of what Human, people, man & Woman eat, it is fit for food for Human. If it is not on the list it is not fit for food by human. In other words its NOT food [for Human]. As I was not speaking of what animals eat or what there prey is.

30They also include geckos, monitor lizards, wall lizards, skinks and chameleons. 31Those are the animals that move around on the ground that are not "clean" for you. [Are not food for you]
Lev 11:33" 'Suppose one of those animals falls into a clay pot. Then everything that is in the pot will be "unclean." [no longer fit for human to eat,] You must break the pot. 34Any food that could be eaten but has water on it that came from that pot is not "clean." And any liquid that could be drunk from it is not "clean." It is no longer Food for human.
I will Edit for you shmuel .
when ever the word FOOD[for humans] appears in the Bible whether old or New Testament it is always referring to Lev 11: 1-47 in other words what animals did God create to be used as food?God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may
eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food. I
Shalom shmuel

Torah · Apr 26, 2006

I would say so, but Torah made the statement that implies that whenever the word food appears in the Bible it is referring to that which is kosher.

And this is true. And you just proved it by putting the word Kosher in there. The fact that G-d set up what we can or can eat, that all Animals, things, creates what ever you want to call them indicate that they are food for us and if it is not on the list it is not food for us. So! when ever the wordFOOD[ appears in the Bible whether old or New Testament it is always referring to Lev 11: 1-47 in other words what animals did God create to be used as food?God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may
eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food.
Shalom

Boanerge · Apr 27, 2006

Ok, I'm sorry if I misdirected anyone, This thread was not about kosher food, it was about holiness and unholiness and whether or not both of these can spread.

First of all I would like to say I'm sorry I haven't been participating, I work in the mornings and go to school in the evenings. But whether I'm busy or not, I always find myself with questions here and there.

Boanerge · Apr 27, 2006

Now that we HAVE mentioned the word FOOD, I have some wondering questions, they dont have to be answered:

What happens to animals who are cloned? what happens to animals who are injected with growth hormones or animals who are genetically tampered with? will they be kosher or not?

What happens to animals that become extinct? What happens when supposively "new species" show up? Or current animals go through enough change to be renamed? What about the animals that are not mentioned in Torah?

This may be far-fetched but what if a pig begins to "chew the cud", would it then be kosher? what if a pig is psychologically hypnotized to chew the cud and it's stomach was genetically altered to properly digest the cud? hmmm (OK maybe Im over my head there!)

Enough digressing, now back to the real world.

Considering the kind of world we live in, I believe it is not going to be easy to distinguish between clean and unclean animals.

Leviticus 11 said:
11:29 "'Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard,
11:30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon.
11:31 Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening.

“Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you.” In other words everything else is edible?

Leviticus 11 said:
11:41 "'Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten.
11:42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable.
11:43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them.

At face value this seems to say that no animal is good for food. But we know better

Maybe these verses mean it is detestable to eat an animal while it is still alive? That makes more sense.

Now, I have heard of some newly discovered species that may fit the catagory of unclean animals in verse 30, but because they are not mentioned, how would one know whether this newly discovered animal is clean or not? (How do we apply Leviticus 11:47)

Torah · Apr 28, 2006

Now that we HAVE mentioned the word FOOD, I have some wondering questions, they dont have to be answered:

What happens to animals who are cloned? what happens to animals who are injected with growth hormones or animals who are genetically tampered with? will they be kosher or not?

What happens to animals that become extinct? What happens when supposively "new species" show up? Or current animals go through enough change to be renamed? What about the animals that are not mentioned in Torah?

This may be far-fetched but what if a pig begins to "chew the cud", would it then be kosher? what if a pig is psychologically hypnotized to chew the cud and it's stomach was genetically altered to properly digest the cud? hmmm (OK maybe Im over my head there!)

[ I had to LOL on this one. I have seen a cartoon where this Jewish guy (during Moses time) is trying to teach a pig to chew his cud.

Considering the kind of world we live in, I believe it is not going to be easy to distinguish between clean and unclean animals.

This is very true, and in fact there are problems that you have not mention. Such as Is the blood drained from the animal, did the animal have cancer, infection from a wound, sores on its body. My son was a meat cuter and he tell me that the blood is still in the meat, he cuts out of the meat cancer, wound, & sores. This is where the Kosher symbols come into play. Many will blow off the Kosher symbols as the rabbi’s just say a blessing over the “Food”. This is just not true.
They [Rabbis] are our eyes where “food” is prepared and packaged. This is why I buy my meat at kosher meat markets. We do not eat meat much, because the price is high. when we do eat meat it is mostly on the feast days. Such as Passover. We had Lamb & a beef brisket. We had not had Lamb since last Passover. And beef since Sukkot. Check out this site for Kosher symbols.
http://www.mazornet.com/jewishcl/Kosher/kosherorgs.htm

“Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you.” In other words everything else is edible?

There is an old saying that goes like this. “If in doute leave it out” this works very well in this case.

Now, I have heard of some newly discovered species that may fit the catagory of unclean animals in verse 30, but because they are not mentioned, how would one know whether this newly discovered animal is clean or not? (How do we apply Leviticus 11:47)

47 You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.' "

It is very simple to distinguish between unclean [not food for human], & clean [food for human]. Read “ALL” of Leviticus 11 and if it’s on the can do list, then it’s OK. And Forget about, what is not on the can do list. You know this thought just cone to me. If Adam & Eve had just focus on what they could eat instead of what they cant eat things would have been different.
Shalom.

visionary · Apr 28, 2006

If Adam & Eve had just focus on what they could eat instead of what they cant eat things would have been different.

Amen...

Boanerge · Apr 28, 2006

Torah said:
If Adam & Eve had just focus on what they could eat instead of what they cant eat things would have been different.

True I see what you mean, if we were to simply do what is right, more importantly if we were to do what G-d says is right, we would not have to be concerned with focusing so much on the wrong. G-d guides the path of the righteous (I can't remember where that verse is) so that we wouldn't have to focus so much on the negative.

Sephania · Apr 28, 2006

This may be far-fetched but what if a pig begins to "chew the cud", would it then be kosher? what if a pig is psychologically hypnotized to chew the cud and it's stomach was genetically altered to properly digest the cud? hmmm (OK maybe Im over my head there!)

I would like to address this since no one has. Unless someone invents a pig ( and you will have to check with Monsanto because I heard recently that they had filed a patten or copyright, I forget which, on the pig . :rolleye: ) that can actually have a totally different stomach ( that of a rumanant) , you will not have a pig that chews the cud.

The cud is the regerjitated already chewed grasses and grains, and is brought back into the mouth for a second breakdown with more chewing and saliva. Cows have a four compartment stomach that this process goes through.

The pig is quite different, It's whole body is full of toxins, so much that they have a drain in their feet that drains off the toxins, but by no means all. The Pig is a toxic waste dump on four legs, it's whole internal structure would have to change to make it fit for human consumption.

As far as cloned 'material' I look at it this way, if G-d didn't create it, it doesn't even make the list, clean or unclean. I don't eat genetically engineered food either for the same reason.

Tishri1 · Apr 28, 2006

My friend in Hawaii said she knows someone who skinned the carcuses of pigs for her family as a teen....when you get the skin off you have to scape a thick coating of worms off the carcus till you can see the meat underneath and then that parasite mush is sold also to make the ever popular "pork rinds" :sick:

Sephania · Apr 28, 2006

And isn't that the favorite snack of our President?

:o:o:o

Torah · Apr 28, 2006

Yall stop it, You guys are sick. :sick:

“Barf” Sorry about that, I’ll clean it up.

stone · Apr 28, 2006

Zayit said:
And isn't that the favorite snack of our President?

:o:o:o

o yuk, i used to eat those things too.

Tishri1 · Apr 28, 2006

Torah said:
Yall stop it, You guys are sick. Barf Sorry about that, Ill clean it up.

Help Understanding Haggai 2:10-14

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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