The Stigmata phenomenom

holeinone said:

Stalin and Lenin were also preserved.

Do all unexplained events or "miracles" come from God?

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preserved is the key word here. On the orders of Joseph Stalin, Lenin's body was preserved for posterity by using a secret embalming method. His internal organs were removed. His body was then injected with formalin and immersed in a formalin bath. His body was then dried and repeatedly immersed in a bath of glycerine, potassium acetate, water and quinine chloride. Lenin wears a waterproof suit under his uniform that holds in the embalming fluid, and his hands and head are bathed in fluid twice a week. His body is still on display in a specially constructed mausoleum. They have done the same with Stalin.

holeinone said:

Look at the face, her nose also looks different, and her nails are polished in the 2nd picture.

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Yes and the Nuns of her order put a fresh habit on her too as the original one turned to dust.

I have great difficulty in seeing how stigmata would be a blessing. Why God would want to put this pain on others when He sent His Son to be the one to suffer. I see it as an event that distracts from God and focuses on these people and also distracts from the good works that the faithful are doing everyday to express Christ to the world.

Trento said:

Yes and the Nuns of her order put a fresh habit on her too as the original one turned to dust.

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Ohh THAT explains why her nose is different and why she has nail polish on thanks

tryinghard said:

I have great difficulty in seeing how stigmata would be a blessing. Why God would want to put this pain on others when He sent His Son to be the one to suffer. I see it as an event that distracts from God and focuses on these people and also distracts from the good works that the faithful are doing everyday to express Christ to the world.

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Is this scripture missing in your bible?

Henceforth, let no man trouble me, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus." Why? Collosians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office..."

Paul speaks of redemptive suffering which is obvious in stigmatists.

tryinghard said:

I have great difficulty in seeing how stigmata would be a blessing. Why God would want to put this pain on others when He sent His Son to be the one to suffer. I see it as an event that distracts from God and focuses on these people and also distracts from the good works that the faithful are doing everyday to express Christ to the world.

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But if Satan desired men to believe that they needed to suffer for their own sins then this would make some sense. Theses people would be looked up to as special men that suffer like Christ.

Wait till good friday and see the men that crucify themselves.

My heart goes out to people that have not yet understood the grace and mercy of God .

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Trento said:

Is this scripture missing in your bible?

Henceforth, let no man trouble me, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus." Why? Collosians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office..."

Paul speaks of redemptive suffering which is obvious in stigmatists.

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Proof texting does not help you here.

Paul is speaking not of a stigmata but the suffering he was enduring as a prisoner for Christ and the suffering of the church for the gospel, not suffering for sins.



Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

holeinone said:

Proof texting does not help you here.

Paul is speaking not of a stigmata but the suffering he was enduring as a prisoner for Christ and the suffering of the church for the gospel, not suffering for sins.

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Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body,

Christ 's afflictions is suffering because of our sins. Paul says I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions which is because of sin.

Thank God Paul came along to finish a job too big for Jesus

drstevej said:

Thank God Paul came along to finish a job too big for Jesus

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Apparently Paul could not finish it Pastor because we have men like Padre Pio and others that have to finish up after Paul too ??

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

And don't forget that final trip through the Purgatorial Finishing School.

An extraordinary saint is Blessed Margaret of Metola. Margaret was a blind dwarf, hunchbacked and lame, but that didn’t stop her from living a life of heroic service to the poor. She died in 1330, but in 1558 her remains had to be transferred because her coffin was rotting away. At the exhumation, witnesses were amazed to find that like the coffin, the clothes had rotted, but Margaret’s crippled body hadn’t.

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Hate to sound smart here, but why would they dig and see if her coffin was rotting away? And if she is under the high altar, isn't that where you have your Lord's Table, and if this time is to think about the Lord's death, why are bodies under the table, it would be a bit of a distraction from the Table, don't ya think?

holeinone said:

That miracle OF GOD does not endorse relics as having any power.

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It's not about endorsing anything. The Scripture simply describes what is meant by a relic. BTW, it is not the relic that has the power, but God working through the relic. You understand it backwards.

God ordained that event for a purpose not as a seed for future superstition to grow from.

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God certainly used the event of the Old Covenant Saint for a purpose. Who is to say that God does not do the same in the New Covenant. Even the Apostles were able to heal by the power of God ordained upon them.

You do not continue to get water from a rock because God used that as a miracle sign

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Depends on what you mean. The figure of the rock and the wellspring could easily represent Christ, who is our rock and wellspring for salvation. Therefore, the miracle is still quite present in Christ.

This event served to confirm the faith of Joash in the predictions of the prophet concerning his victories; is a proof of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal life, and an emblem of our being quickened through the death of Christ.

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Indeed. Old Covenant Saints do point to the victory over sin and death that are fulfilled in Christ. This has not changed in the nature of Saints today though. The Saints since the New Covenant still serve that purpose of pointing towards Christ and the salvation that comes through him.

I love the way those that mock Sola Scriptura use it to isolate scripture to confirm relics as holy,Peter as pope, the bread as transubstantiated, confession to intermediaries for forgiveness and prayer to saints.

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Being able to use the Bible to supposrt one's faith is not sola scriptura. For us Catholics, Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition are closely related and upheld by the magesterium. We have personal views, but ultimately, our threefold authority is Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium. For the Sola Scripturist, they wing it by putting themselves in the place of Tradition and the Magesterium. Sola Scriptura may proclaim that the Bible is their final authority, but in truth, it is the individual that makes his own interpretation the final authority in his mind. The end result, then, of Sola Scriptura is bibliolatry, though not necessarily worshipping the Bible as much as worshiping one's own plattitudes and interpretation of the Bible. In this way bibliolatry essentially leads to worship of one's self authenticated opinion.

Pax Tecum,

John

Diane_Windsor said:

I just watched a fascinating episode of Histories Mysteries on The History Channel. I learned some interesting things about the stigmata:

1. There are no known cases of stigmata before the 13th century. Interesting tidbit about this era is that church art depicting the Crucifixion became more realistic and gruesome. Some believe that power of suggestion is a valid explanation why the phenomenom first occurred during the 13th century.

2. This phenomenom occurs in other religions very rarely. For instance, Islam has its own version of stigmata. It has been recorded that some Muslims have borne the war wounds of the Prophet Muhammad.

3. In one study a woman was hypnotized, and was told that she was wearing a crown of thorns. Welts began to develop on her forhead and before too long she was bleeding.

4. Padre Pio's wounds disappeared after his death. This lead some to believe that his wounds were psychosomatic.

5. The stigmata happens to more women than it does men.

Do you believe that the Stigmata is genuine or are you skeptical?

I am highly skeptical myself for a variety of reasons.

Skeptic article on the phenomenom.
What's the deal with stigmata?

Poll is open to all, and everyone on this site is free to discuss.

DIANE

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Well, we all know the History Channel is a good, unbiased source of information on religious subjects.

Ethan_Fetch said:

I think it's psychosomatic.

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It certainly can be. Not sure it can be proved either direction.

Iollain said:

Hate to sound smart here, but why would they dig and see if her coffin was rotting away? And if she is under the high altar, isn't that where you have your Lord's Table, and if this time is to think about the Lord's death, why are bodies under the table, it would be a bit of a distraction from the Table, don't ya think?

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To begin with in the Catacombs of the first christians the euchristic sacrifice of the mass was offered on altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs.



Paragraph 302 of G.I.R.M. reads as follows:
"The practice of placing under the altar to be dedicated relics of saints, even of non-martyrs, is to be maintained. Care must be taken to have solid evidence of the authenticity of such relics."
Church law prescribes an altar of stone for the Holy Sacrifice. If the altar be made of wood or of materials other than stone then the Holy Sacrifice must be offered on an altar-stone set therein. The little rectangle in the front center of the Altar Stone is the sepulcher or tomb, a hollowed part in which are contained the relics of Saints and Martyrs. During the Mass the priest often kisses the middle of the altar. In this spot is a stone become, by the consecration of the bishop, a figure of Jesus Christ. Like the Word of God, it has received the same unction; like Him, it bears the mark of five wounds (five crosses are cut in the stone), and these are also made by the hammer and iron; like the Lamb of God, or Whom 'not one of the bones was broken,' the sacred stone is entire, cut from a single piece. He who loves Our Lord will understand these kisses so often repeated; the Church wishes to make reparation during the Holy Sacrifice for all the outrages of the passion
"In his marvelous vision, St. John saw 'under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God' (Apoc. 6, 9). The Church militant, heir of their holy relics, has placed them under the altar of sacrifice. This custom, observed from the earliest days of Christianity, teaches us how we should receive Jesus Christ in holy communion. Our heart becomes an altar where Our Lord consummates his sacrifice, and upon this living altar He wishes to see the blessed wounds of a martyr. The saints have tasted in communion ineffable sweetness; recompense, we may be sure, of the immolation which they made of themselves each day.
This is how they found St. Peters bones under the Altar of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

Before a Saint is beatified there must be a verification of the identy of that body so it has to be exhumed.

drstevej said:

Thank God Paul came along to finish a job too big for Jesus

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. he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake (Acts 9:15-16).
Were Paul’s sufferings redemptive? Our own salvation may well attest to it. The salvation of others may one day attest to our willingness as well to suffer so as to fill up the sufferings lacking in the Body of Christ.
If Paul had a share of suffering to fulfill, we all have a share to fulfill. With a greater call to suffering comes a greater grace to endure. So it will be at the end of the age when the extent of suffering will be exceeded only by the grace to endure.
The mystery of the wisdom of the cross will be demonstrated by a Church who lives the beatitudes rather than just recites them. God will be glorified and Satan will be crushed underfoot.



We glorify God by rejoicing in our sufferings.
So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name (Acts 5:41).

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation (1 Peter 4:12-13).

The question of whether Stigmata is real (gift from God vs psychological) or not is besides the point.

The only thing that matters is that the people who experience it, genuinely feel closer to God and indulge in their spirituality.

tryinghard said:

I have great difficulty in seeing how stigmata would be a blessing. Why God would want to put this pain on others when He sent His Son to be the one to suffer. I see it as an event that distracts from God and focuses on these people and also distracts from the good works that the faithful are doing everyday to express Christ to the world.

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Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering (2 Thessalonians 1:2-5).

In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ . . . (1 Peter 1:6-7).

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings (Hebrews 2:10).
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation (1 Peter 4:12-13).
And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you (1 Peter 5:10).

so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this. For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a man bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps . . . (1 Peter 2:19-21).

For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong (1 Peter 3:17).

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose . . . (1 Peter 4:1).

salt_of_the_earth said:

The question of whether Stigmata is real (gift from God vs psychological) or not is besides the point.

The only thing that matters is that the people who experience it, genuinely feel closer to God and indulge in their spirituality.

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Where did you hear that ? If one feels closer to God kneeling before Buddha is their feelings all that counts?

The people that danced around the golden calf naked felt happy and spiritual until God slay them.


Does what God might think matter?