temple destroyed??

Originally posted by Acts6:5
I'd be interested in hearing from some of you concerning this question I asked on my #56 post:

So my question is, now that salvation has been offered to all people, what exactly is this "purpose" for fleshly Jews many of you think hasn't been fulfilled yet?

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I don't pretend to know God's motivations, so I can't tell you what "purpose" God has. But I can tell you that God made promises to the Jews that He hasn't yet fulfilled. So whatever His purpose may be, God is not done with the Jews as a people. The regathering of Jews to Israel is a prophecy that is currently being fulfilled. Perhaps that is setting the stage for delivering on some of those promises.

Finally, I consider the Jews to be special because God considers the line of Abraham to be special, and even warns that He will curse those who treat the Jews otherwise. Genesis 12:

The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

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Hi all!

Hmmm...Well we (DW, myself & DaBoyz) had a very nice Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath, which for us, runs from sundown on Friday to nightfall on Saturday). We went to synagogue, slept , ate , etc.

Now lessee here...Acts6:5, as one of those "fleshy Jews" (Hmm, I do have a few extra pounds 'round my midsection which qualify me as "fleshy" ) you referred to, I would respectfully submit that our purpose is what is has always been: to be a light unto the nations by virtue of our being a kingdom of priests & a holy nation (running a few Tanakh verses together there) which we will be if we adhere to the Torah which God gave to Moses our Teacher. We must sanctify the Name of God in the world. Our "purpose" is not "fulfilled" nor will it ever be even after the Messiah comes.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

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Hi SSV, thanks for the reply. I'm working on that midsection myself (working on losing it, that is). I'm glad you didn't take the term "fleshly Jews" in a derogatory fashion, for it wasn't meant to be. I was just trying to use Paul's distinction between what he viewed as a Jew in the "flesh", and a Jew in the "spirit".

As you confirmed, the purpose for the nation of God's people was (although you say "is" ) to be a "light unto the nations by virtue of being a kingdom of priests & a holy nation". That was the purpose for which they were "chosen".

Now, from a Christian perspective, that purpose (to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation) was then given to the Body of Christ, made up of both Jews and Gentiles (1Peter 2:9). The vineyard was given to others (Mark 12:9). So when I hear fellow Christians declare that a nation of Jews, who will restart the sacrificial system, is necessary to satisfy some sort of unfulfilled prophetic purpose, I don't know what to make of it.

And your right; the purpose of sanctifying God's name is not "fulfilled", at least not in the sense of completion. But as a Christian, I see the purpose fulfilled in the Church; and that certainly means the mission is continuing.

Again, thanks for your insight. Take care of yourself over there.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I don't pretend to know God's motivations, so I can't tell you what "purpose" God has. But I can tell you that God made promises to the Jews that He hasn't yet fulfilled. So whatever His purpose may be, God is not done with the Jews as a people. The regathering of Jews to Israel is a prophecy that is currently being fulfilled. Perhaps that is setting the stage for delivering on some of those promises.

Finally, I consider the Jews to be special because God considers the line of Abraham to be special, and even warns that He will curse those who treat the Jews otherwise. Genesis 12

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Hi Npetreley, good to hear from you.

I'd be interested in finding out from you what some of those unfulfilled promises are, so if you could post the scripture references I'd appreciate it.

God does consider the line of Abraham to be special. But Paul considered the line of Abraham to be made up of the children of the “promise”(both Jews and Gentiles), rather then just the children of the “seed”, or flesh of Abraham. In fact, he even stated that the children of Abraham’s flesh were not the children of the promise (but of course they could become them).

And I’m not talking about the "treatment" of the Jews. I’m talking about their purpose as a nation and a people. That purpose was given to the Body of Christ, to be the “royal priesthood and holy nation” (1Peter 2:9), to be the light of Christ to the world.

So is it your belief that there must be two priesthoods and two nations simultaneously coexisting at once in order to fulfill God's promises; one nation being a literal country made up of physical Jews and physical priests, and yet another made up of spiritual Jews and spiritual priests that cover the entire earth?

“If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the Promise.”(Gal 3:29)

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hi all!

Acts, I thank you for your insightful comments.

"So when I hear fellow Christians declare that a nation of Jews, who will restart the sacrificial
system, is necessary to satisfy some sort of unfulfilled prophetic purpose, I don't know what to make of it."

I don't know what my Nazarene cousins think about all this, bUt we (orthodox) Jews are eagerly awaiting and anticipating the restoration of the system of offerings that the Messiah will usher in.

"The regathering of Jews to Israel is a prophecy that is currently being fulfilled. Perhaps that is setting the stage for delivering on some of those promises."

As a Jew who has personally been "regathered" (I had an epiphany 15.5 years ago that led me to actively embrace the faith that I had been born into but which up until then meant very little to me & to move to Israel), I find this whole process/event both marvelous & mystifying. God is, in His goodness, gathering our scattered people back home from the four corners of the world (see Deuteronomy 30:1-20 and Zephaniah 3:14-20).

As to your question of our purpose as a nation, see Zechariah 8:23, "Thus says the Lord of Hosts: 'In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the garment of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

Be well!

ssv

Hi SSV. I too am grateful for your comments. I'd like to ask you about the restoration of the system of offerings; will a new temple be unable to be built while the Dome of the Rock is still standing, or can it be built nearby? I've never been quite sure on that.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Hi Acts!

The Dome is a problem. "Nearby" is not good enough; the Temple has to be on the EXACT spot. We'll have to leave this one to the Messiah to deal with. (He & the duly reconstituted & reestablished Sanhedrin will have to deal with a bunch of other practical issues vis-a-vis Jewish law before work can begin.)

Be well!

ssv

still waiting? BTW, will Judaism still sacrifice to God after the coming of the Messiah? Why also will the Messiah need a Sanhedrin? I've always wanted to hear from a Jew, their feelings on what the Messiah is to come for. Also, how their interpretation of scripture disregards the true Messiah(in my opinion, given by the Father) Jesus of Nazereth...?

Such a pretty story it is - Christ said that the destruction of the temple would signal his return (except that he said no such thing.) He simply stated that the temple would be destroyed and Jerusalem crushed. This particular prophecy is in no way associated with his return.
Matthew 24:3 makes this clear -

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

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Three different subjects. When shall the things you have told us about happen? Those things include the comments about the temple.
What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the signs of the end of the world? If Jesus had referred to the destruction of the temple in his response, there might be an outside chance that it was connected with his return. He made no such reference.

Whoever said the Bible was the living word of God? The living word of God is the Messiah ... the Bible is the written word. Two different things entirely.

it's age, not world...

sure does seem the disciple's connected His coming to "these things"...why else would they ask it in succession like that...doesn't make sense to ask about one thing that would happen so soon, then without explanaition or delay ask about something altogether separate from the original question...It is evident in my mind that His "coming" was something connected to the destruction of the temple...(thought: wonder if the O.T. connects His "coming" to the destruction of the temple, because that would be THEIR scripture's they could reference?...why else ask a question like that when discussing the destruction of the temple?...)...and in turn His "coming" is likewise connected to the end of the "AGE"...not world...

Hi jenlu!

This thread (started by me) from a different discussion board on this forum should help you:

<http://www.christianforums.com/foru...readid=13505&perpage=10&display=&pagenumber=1>

Yes, we fully expect to reestablish the whole system of offerings in the rebuilt Temple when the Messiah comes & long after he is gone.

The Sanhedrin will be necessary to rule on a whole range of questions vis-a-vis Jewish law. Such matters are its bailiwick, not the Messiah's.

Is this helpful?

ssv

Originally posted by stillsmallvoice


Yes, we fully expect to reestablish the whole system of offerings in the rebuilt Temple when the Messiah comes & long after he is gone .

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Could you elaborate on this notion?
I have never heard this aspect about how Jews today envision their coming messiah.

He comes, then he leaves?
Then what?

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Such a pretty story it is - Christ said that the destruction of the temple would signal his return (except that he said no such thing.) He simply stated that the temple would be destroyed and Jerusalem crushed. This particular prophecy is in no way associated with his return.
Matthew 24:3 makes this clear -
Three different subjects. When shall the things you have told us about happen? Those things include the comments about the temple.
What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the signs of the end of the world? If Jesus had referred to the destruction of the temple in his response, there might be an outside chance that it was connected with his return. He made no such reference.

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So, are you saying that the apostles asked 3 distinct questions, but Christ refused to answer 1 of them? Ignoring, or perhaps avoiding, the "only" question (as you see it) that had direct relevance and practical application to the disciples?


Jesus just told them the temple was going to fall.
Their first question was WHEN LORD?

You expect to convince me that Jesus refused to answer that question, opting instead to tell them about a time 2000 years later?

I don't buy it.
Jesus answered "All" their questions.

Hi parousia70!

Lessee, you asked:

"Could you elaborate on this notion? I have never heard this aspect about how Jews today envision their coming messiah. He comes, then he leaves? Then what?"

It's simple. In our view, the messiah will be a mortal, flesh-and-blood human being (see my posts in that thread I gave a link to). He will reestablish the Davidic monarchy. When he dies, he will be succeeded by his son, who will be the new king. Thus, the rebuilt Temple 7 the offerings therein will be around long after the Messiah is dead & buried (we DON'T cremate).

Howzat?

ssv

Originally posted by stillsmallvoice
"Could you elaborate on this notion? I have never heard this aspect about how Jews today envision their coming messiah. He comes, then he leaves? Then what?"

It's simple. In our view, the messiah will be a mortal, flesh-and-blood human being (see my posts in that thread I gave a link to). He will reestablish the Davidic monarchy. When he dies, he will be succeeded by his son, who will be the new king. Thus, the rebuilt Temple 7 the offerings therein will be around long after the Messiah is dead &amp; buried (we DON'T cremate).

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For those dispensational futurists out there who hanker after a physical Messiah in a physical [rebuilt] Temple with reinstituted blood sacrifices through a reinstituted priesthood -how does all this sit with you?

davo

PS: thankyou stillsmallvoice -interesting.

Reply to Thunderchild,

Mark 13 : 4, Luke 21 : 7.

Of the three writers who reported on this conversation, two of them NEVER asked three questions.
I know of only one way that the three writers can all be correct.

All three 'things' asked about in Matthew 24 : 3 happened somewhere about the same time.

Can you explain another way?

Justme

Originally posted by stillsmallvoice
Hi parousia70!

Lessee, you asked:

"Could you elaborate on this notion? I have never heard this aspect about how Jews today envision their coming messiah. He comes, then he leaves? Then what?"

It's simple. In our view, the messiah will be a mortal, flesh-and-blood human being (see my posts in that thread I gave a link to). He will reestablish the Davidic monarchy. When he dies, he will be succeeded by his son, who will be the new king. Thus, the rebuilt Temple 7 the offerings therein will be around long after the Messiah is dead &amp; buried (we DON'T cremate).

Howzat?

ssv

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&nbsp;

Thanks stillsmallvoice, that was fascinating. So, what makes messiah any different than say, Ariel Sharon?(sp?) Could He be the Messiah you are waiting For?&nbsp; Will the Messiah claim to be the messiah? Is that how you'll know it's him?

Have there been any "Flase Messiah's" come along in modern times in Israel and claim messiahship?

In what way will Messiah be diferent from David?, or any other King in the line? What will he be able to do that nobody but him could do?

And what of the resurrection? How long after Messiah dies is the resurrection?

I aplolgise for the barrage of questions but as I said, this is new and fascinating to me, I'm sure I'll have more...thanks for your understanding!

P70

If you'll dare to look here, your notions of where the Temple Mount actually stood might be shaken with the latest information and findings, especially when you look at the diagram of the the Roman temple to Jupiter layed upon an aerial view of the Temple Mount as it is today--a perfect fit. There are actually 3 theories and therefore, by no means a foregone conclusion. http://www.templemount.org/theories.html

It's a book about the history of redemption that has living, spiritual applications for our lives today. A great deal of the OT and NT is a record of history (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1&2Samuel, 1&2Kings, 1&2Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts). But regardless whether or not it is history, it is still lifechanging for us today, just as it was thousands of years ago.

In Christ,

Acts6:5