Human Scarifice?

Shadowkiller

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Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible
The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord".

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

Even though he didn't kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone's prison-*****. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God's love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.

Even more peculiar is God's obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.

However, in Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." I must admit that I am a bit confused by this contradiction, but it might only apply to slaves in your possession. Not that it makes any difference. A human sacrifice is a human sacrifice, and it is just sick.


Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)


God Commands Burning Humans

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)


Josiah and Human Sacrifice

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

Human Sacrifice

Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)


Child Sacrifice

And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.


Humans are Fuel for Fire

As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)


Burn Nonbelievers

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

This scares me alittle.Would anybody like to explain?
 

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Shadowkiller said:
Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible
The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are "pleasing to the Lord".
Yes, God wanted a sacrifice that was burned. That meant it was completely destroyed and completely sacrificed to Him. It was no longer useful to the person sacrificing.

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. "Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

Even though he didn't kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone's prison-*****. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God's love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.
Okay, this was a "test" (for lack of a better word) of Abraham's devotion. The question was never (in God's mind) if Abraham would sacrifice his son. In God's eyes, the question was "Has Abraham started 'worshipping' his son Isaac, whom I gave him, whom I promised him instead of Me?" Abraham's sad willingness to do this was his proof to God that this had not occured.
Why is this a test of God's love? That is difficult. Here's the thing, though: There were many peoples whose "gods" required them to sacrifice their children and had them burned alive or fed to crocodiles or some other hideous death. The fact that God asked this of Abraham may not have surprised him (though it grieved him). The fact that God stopped him: that's the act of love.

The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.
Yes, the Israelites supplied the Priesthood with all its needs. Some of the food was for those who kept the Temple (or Tabernacle) and directed worship there. However, there were rules for how and who could consume this, too. The object was to allow these people (less than a 13th of the population) to fully devote themselves to God w/o having to otherwise provide for their families.

Even more peculiar is God's obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.
First, let me say you seem to think the priests came up with all these rules to "get over on" the Israelites. I know you won't buy this, but this wasn't their rules, but those of the God they worshipped.
Okay, I can see why you read the situation this way. But the fact of the matter is that the firstborn was not to be a "dead sacrifice", but a "living sacrifice" . . . that is the firstborn was to live his life in service to God in the Tabernacle or Temple. Most families would "redeem" their firstborn sons to allow them to follow in their father's footsteps instead of going into service at the Temple.

However, in Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." I must admit that I am a bit confused by this contradiction, but it might only apply to slaves in your possession. Not that it makes any difference. A human sacrifice is a human sacrifice, and it is just sick.
Once again speaking of "living sacrifice". But this also brings up the point that once a person had vowed or promised something to God, they really needed to follow through with it. This is the rule under which the couple were killed in Acts 5:1-11.


Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
There's no proof that he killed her and burnt her, but she, too may have become a living sacrifice. As the only child of her father, it was a great sacrifice that she not have any children. Her father's line died out with her. This was a great disgrace and sorrow in that culture at that time. (Notice I don't say this is what happened, but simply offer another reading of the text that would line up with the rest of Scripture.)


God Commands Burning Humans

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
This speaks, not of sacrifice, but of capital punishment. The evil was not allowed to remain, but was taken out. You'll also see this with hanging and stoning.


Josiah and Human Sacrifice

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

Human Sacrifice

Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
I'm not familiar enough with this book to comment.


Child Sacrifice

And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.


Humans are Fuel for Fire

As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)
This is a judgement against a specific country. This is not a command, but a prophecy. This happens during a battle, not just going against whomever a person wishes.


Burn Nonbelievers

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
This is, once again, to root out evil. The corruption of religious practice was forbidden. It was something so abhorent to God that he wanted nothing left of this apostacy. Therefore, He says to "kill everything and burn it" so nothing could possibly be left. This also keeps demons away (often the cause of such heresy) from the rest of the people.
Also, this was meant as a deterrent as much as possible. Yes, the obedience of the others is pleasing to Him.


This scares me alittle.Would anybody like to explain?
I hope this has given you something to consider on this topic.
Rachel

 
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GodOwnsMe

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the book of wisdom is not the only one that condems human sacrifice. Ezechiel does the same (there's a weird verse on human sacrifice as well, though.) and there might be even more books condemning human sacrifices.

the picture the whole of the bible gives me of God is none of a God who would want human sacrifices. "Even" in the Old Testament, there are lots of parts describing God as a loving, caring God.
(if you wanna check it out: Isaiah 40-55 for example. Though there are a lot of passages of cruel punishments on "pagan" nations, there are verses saying God loves the other nations, too. Wish I could remember where they are now...)

I don't take everything in the bible as God's will... otherwise I would have big problems in understanding these passages as well

sorry that I can't help more here!
 
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matthewgoh

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The attention should be on the sacrifice of the Son of God. The crucifixion is far more terrible than all the sacrifices recorded in OT. The Son of God died the most terrible death to end all the sacrifices and penalties in the OT. The whole bible context tell a strong message - man's salvation. God wants us to have salvation so much, beyond words. Hence I can say that the greatness in heaven is beyond our imagination. Praise the Lord.
 
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fatpie42

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matthewgoh said:
The attention should be on the sacrifice of the Son of God. The crucifixion is far more terrible than all the sacrifices recorded in OT. The Son of God died the most terrible death to end all the sacrifices and penalties in the OT. The whole bible context tell a strong message - man's salvation. God wants us to have salvation so much, beyond words. Hence I can say that the greatness in heaven is beyond our imagination. Praise the Lord.

If anyone committed a human sacrifice I think there are two reactions we would have:
Firstly we would be horrified that anyone should do such a thing. This would be our reaction to it on moral grounds.
Secondly we would be struck by the absurdity of such an action. This would be our reaction to it on rational grounds.

Why on earth should our reaction be any different to the death of Christ? How should the knowledge that Jesus was God incarnate make that human sacrifice any more moral or reasonable?
 
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Metanoia02

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fatpie42 said:
If anyone committed a human sacrifice I think there are two reactions we would have:
Firstly we would be horrified that anyone should do such a thing. This would be our reaction to it on moral grounds.
Secondly we would be struck by the absurdity of such an action. This would be our reaction to it on rational grounds.

Why on earth should our reaction be any different to the death of Christ? How should the knowledge that Jesus was God incarnate make that human sacrifice any more moral or reasonable?

In order for you to make a moral or rational judgement you would need to understand the nature and meaning of a sacrifice. It is not a meaningless act of violence. Would a the sacrifice of a soldiers life to protect his friends ever be viewed as absurd? Sacrifice is an act of Love.
 
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fatpie42

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Metanoia02 said:
In order for you to make a moral or rational judgement you would need to understand the nature and meaning of a sacrifice. It is not a meaningless act of violence. Would a the sacrifice of a soldiers life to protect his friends ever be viewed as absurd? Sacrifice is an act of Love.

Great. So I can't judge suicide cults because they might be sacrificing their lives for a greater good?

I'm afraid the idea that 'two wrongs make a right' doesn't make any more sense in terms of our relation to God than it does in any other context. The idea that Jesus' death clears believers of sin makes about as much sense to me as the idea that suicide cult members who kill themselves when a comet passes are able to gain transcendence.

It seems that unless I follow some very twisted logic along with some very convoluted metaphysics there is no way Jesus' death can be equated with the sacrifice of an honourable soldier. At least if Jesus hadn't come back from the dead his death could be seen as a passive protest. Am I missing something important here?
 
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Metanoia02

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fatpie42 said:
Great. So I can't judge suicide cults because they might be sacrificing their lives for a greater good?

I'm afraid the idea that 'two wrongs make a right' doesn't make any more sense in terms of our relation to God than it does in any other context. The idea that Jesus' death clears believers of sin makes about as much sense to me as the idea that suicide cult members who kill themselves when a comet passes are able to gain transcendence.

It seems that unless I follow some very twisted logic along with some very convoluted metaphysics there is no way Jesus' death can be equated with the sacrifice of an honourable soldier. At least if Jesus hadn't come back from the dead his death could be seen as a passive protest. Am I missing something important here?

If you don't believe there is anything after this life, then it would all be quite absurd.

But if you believe the the ultimate end for Man is to spend eternity with the Creator, then maybe it doesn't seem so absurd.
 
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Rafael

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Nice copy and paste job....but all has reasonable explanations if understanding is wanted.
It isn't the smell of burning flesh that pleases God, but it is the love that it takes for one man to give His life for another. The Bible in the Old Testament teaches that justice demands a payment for sin. Isn't their judgment and justice served even today? The old way was an eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life, but because of Jesus once and for all sacrifice for our benefit, the old way is gone. Now we have a sacrifice that no longer takes anymore payment in blood and life. Jesus has bought our salvation once and for all with His own pain and suffering.
So, burning flesh has no good smell other than the love it takes for one to give his life for another. Love is the key, and it is love that we are here to learn about and practice - after the example given to us by Jesus.

I JOHN 3:16-19 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with ACTIONS and TRUTH. This then is how we KNOW that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us.
 
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fatpie42

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Rafael said:
Nice copy and paste job....
It isn't the smell of burning flesh that pleases God, but it is the love that it takes for one man to give His liofe for another. The Bible in the Old Testament teaches that justice demands a payment for sin. Isn't their judgment and justice served even today? The old way was an eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life, but because of Jesus once and for all sacrifice for our benefit, the old way is gone. Now we have a sacrifice that no longer takes anymore payment. Jesus has bought our salvation once and for all.
So, burning flesh has no good smell other than the love it takes for one to give his life for another. Love is the key, and it is love that we are here to learn about and practice - after the example given to us by Jesus.

Tons of people have laid down their lives for each other throughout history, so Jesus would not be the first to do so. (Remember that Jesus' death can only be interpreted as a self-sacrifice if we believe he was God and therefore that he could have prevented his death.) If all repaying the sins of people required would be self-sacrifice then it happened many times before.

Secondly, if the need for the law has ended why do Christians still appeal to courts and build prisons? Surely this is because sin is still rife through the world and the law is still needed? Even Christians can be found in prisons (the assertion that they aren't REALLY Christian is rather lame).

Thirdly, you still haven't dealt with the main issue which is: How can someone's death (anyone's death, human or God) EVER make up for the wrongdoing of others? Are we supposed to take God's word for it that it can, or is this mechanism of atonement meant to make some sense?

P.S. What 'cut and paste job'?
 
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Metanoia02

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fatpie42 said:
Thirdly, you still haven't dealt with the main issue which is: How can someone's death (anyone's death, human or God) EVER make up for the wrongdoing of others? Are we supposed to take God's word for it that it can, or is this mechanism of atonement meant to make some sense?

That is basic structure of the universe. Living things by thier death, provide for the survival and growth of other living things. It is not a foreign concept.
 
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fatpie42

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Metanoia02 said:
That is basic structure of the universe. Living things by thier death, provide for the survival and growth of other living things. It is not a foreign concept.

Aren't you taking that rather out of context? Certainly if my body is buried in the ground outside of a coffin it will provide food for various worms and insects, not to mention many bacteria, but that is not the same as saving people from their sins.

This idea you have put forward doesn't appear to have valid use as anything other than an analogy, and even then I don't see how it fits the example of Jesus' death.
 
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Robinsegg

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fatpie42 said:
Tons of people have laid down their lives for each other throughout history, so Jesus would not be the first to do so. (Remember that Jesus' death can only be interpreted as a self-sacrifice if we believe he was God and therefore that he could have prevented his death.) If all repaying the sins of people required would be self-sacrifice then it happened many times before.

Secondly, if the need for the law has ended why do Christians still appeal to courts and build prisons? Surely this is because sin is still rife through the world and the law is still needed? Even Christians can be found in prisons (the assertion that they aren't REALLY Christian is rather lame).

Thirdly, you still haven't dealt with the main issue which is: How can someone's death (anyone's death, human or God) EVER make up for the wrongdoing of others? Are we supposed to take God's word for it that it can, or is this mechanism of atonement meant to make some sense?

P.S. What 'cut and paste job'?

The difference between all the other acts of self-sacrifice and that of Jesus is the fact that Jesus had no sin in and of himself. Not only was he God, but he had no sin. Therefore, He took our sins upon himself and won the victory over death and Hell.
A dirty cloth can't clean a dish very well. I am that dirty cloth. Even after being saved, I make mistakes and even willfully sin sometimes. I need to be cleaned every day just as much as anyone else. I can't be that sacrifice for others because of it.
Jesus was clean and righteous before God. He had no sin. Therefore, He took his cleanness and wiped away the filth on us. He became dirty, full of sin, because He washed us.
Yes, we still have need for the "rule of law" because we live in a sinful world and still sin (yes, even Christians still sin, we're no better than anyone else). We still need to keep order in society. However, the need for "The Law", that which was given to Moses and the sacrifices and penalties written there is gone. We don't need that law, because we now have grace.
The law fulfilled a purpose of showing us our need for a Saviour. We can't fulfill it on our own. Only Jesus did. The law condemns, but Jesus saves.
Does that make any sense? I hope so.
Rachel
 
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fatpie42

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Robinsegg said:
The difference between all the other acts of self-sacrifice and that of Jesus is the fact that Jesus had no sin in and of himself. Not only was he God, but he had no sin. Therefore, He took our sins upon himself and won the victory over death and Hell.

Is that meant to be a logical argument?

1. Jesus has no sin and Jesus is God.
2. A God-man with no sin takes away our sin when it dies.
3. Taking away human sin is a victory over death and hell.
4. Therefore Jesus' death was a victory over death and hell.

Only problem here is that point 2 is the most obviously contestable point imaginable. How on earth could it possibly be true?

Robinsegg said:
A dirty cloth can't clean a dish very well. I am that dirty cloth. Even after being saved, I make mistakes and even willfully sin sometimes. I need to be cleaned every day just as much as anyone else. I can't be that sacrifice for others because of it.

Newborn babies have been known to die without committing any wrongdoing. I don't think the idea of describing stillborn infants as 'dirty cloths' is a very pleasant analogy. Besides I thought only Jesus could be the sacrifice because only he was God?

Robinsegg said:
Jesus was clean and righteous before God. He had no sin. Therefore, He took his cleanness and wiped away the filth on us.

That is the part that makes no sense.

Robinsegg said:
He became dirty, full of sin, because He washed us.
Yes, we still have need for the "rule of law" because we live in a sinful world and still sin (yes, even Christians still sin, we're no better than anyone else). We still need to keep order in society. However, the need for "The Law", that which was given to Moses and the sacrifices and penalties written there is gone. We don't need that law, because we now have grace.

You've contradicted youself here. Do we need law and punishments, or not?

Robinsegg said:
The law fulfilled a purpose of showing us our need for a Saviour. We can't fulfill it on our own. Only Jesus did. The law condemns, but Jesus saves.
Does that make any sense? I hope so.
Rachel

Fraid not....
 
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Robinsegg

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fatpie42 said:
Is that meant to be a logical argument?

1. Jesus has no sin and Jesus is God.
2. A God-man with no sin takes away our sin when it dies.
3. Taking away human sin is a victory over death and hell.
4. Therefore Jesus' death was a victory over death and hell.

Only problem here is that point 2 is the most obviously contestable point imaginable. How on earth could it possibly be true?
I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you to understand. However, that point is the crux of the matter, isn't it? I could just as easily ask you "how could it possibly not be true?" Let me try to make this clearer . . .
Okay, let's assume for the moment that Jesus was sinless. The only person to ever walk all His life in fulfillment of the 10 Commandments. As a person who didn't have this insult toward God in His heart, He pleased God. Jesus is the only example in human history that pleased God enough to plead on our behalf. Only Jesus could be heard (we can be heard because of Him) to plead our case. The way He did that was to say, "Look, I was perfect and sinless and I took their punishment. I loved them enough to take the punishment of an excruciating death and going to Hell so they could have a relationship with you and me." God looks at what Jesus did and says, "Jesus, for Your sake, I will forgive them."

Newborn babies have been known to die without committing any wrongdoing. I don't think the idea of describing stillborn infants as 'dirty cloths' is a very pleasant analogy. Besides I thought only Jesus could be the sacrifice because only he was God?
Yes. But humankind in general (and all those who've been alive long enough to cry w/o reason) have sinned and become horribly dirty.

That is the part that makes no sense.
Have you ever taken a clean, white cloth and wiped away grime and filth with it? The item you've wiped will eventually become clean. But the cloth itself needs a powerful cleanser to clean away the stain left by that filth and grime.
You've contradicted youself here. Do we need law and punishments, or not?
Until Christ returns and all is perfect, yes we need law, order, and yes, even punishment. However, we need no longer follow the rules laid before us in the books of Moses. The law is still useful to tell us how sinful we are. It still condemns all those who have not accepted Christ. But in Christ (those who have accepted Him), we have freedom from the law, because we have something greater than the law. That doesn't mean that we don't try to follow the law. It simply means that failing to fulfill the law in every detail of our lives will no longer lead to eternal death and separation from God for eternity.



Fraid not....
Does that help?
Rachel
 
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fatpie42

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Is that meant to be a logical argument?

1. Jesus has no sin and Jesus is God.
2. A God-man with no sin takes away our sin when it dies.
3. Taking away human sin is a victory over death and hell.
4. Therefore Jesus' death was a victory over death and hell.

Only problem here is that point 2 is the most obviously contestable point imaginable. How on earth could it possibly be true?
I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you to understand. However, that point is the crux of the matter, isn't it? I could just as easily ask you "how could it possibly not be true?" Let me try to make this clearer . . .
Okay, let's assume for the moment that Jesus was sinless. The only person to ever walk all His life in fulfillment of the 10 Commandments. As a person who didn't have this insult toward God in His heart, He pleased God. Jesus is the only example in human history that pleased God enough to plead on our behalf. Only Jesus could be heard (we can be heard because of Him) to plead our case. The way He did that was to say, "Look, I was perfect and sinless and I took their punishment. I loved them enough to take the punishment of an excruciating death and going to Hell so they could have a relationship with you and me." God looks at what Jesus did and says, "Jesus, for Your sake, I will forgive them."

The problem here is that any idea that Jesus life was 'perfect' is very subjective. It's very easy to accept if you've been brought up believing it (and by this I mean that I used to accept it wholeheartedly), but when you think about it, it certainly is not the way we would want normal people to behave. Jesus made statements that, in the mouth of someone who was not God incarnate, would be arrogant and condescending (e.g. "I and the father are one" and "Get behind me Satan").

On top of this Jesus had no job, so other than his religious teachings he was not providing for the community once he reached his thirties, opting instead to travel around criticising the way other people lived their lives. - All this was very useful for the community, since it seems that many of things he challenged were very important issues. Even so, it does not seem obvious how we can describe his methods as 'perfect', not least since in the end they led to his crucifixion.

Newborn babies have been known to die without committing any wrongdoing. I don't think the idea of describing stillborn infants as 'dirty cloths' is a very pleasant analogy. Besides I thought only Jesus could be the sacrifice because only he was God?
Yes. But humankind in general (and all those who've been alive long enough to cry w/o reason) have sinned and become horribly dirty.

So stillborn babies don't count as the sacrifice? How about those which die shortly after birth? Either you must say that they don't count because they are not God incarnate, or you must say that they do not count because they are corrupted by original sin (which in turn involves the belief on which original sin is based which suggests that we are responsible for the sins of our ancestors), or you must agree with me that there is no reason why an innocent's death should cleanse any OTHER person of their sins. Which is it?

That is the part that makes no sense.
Have you ever taken a clean, white cloth and wiped away grime and filth with it? The item you've wiped will eventually become clean. But the cloth itself needs a powerful cleanser to clean away the stain left by that filth and grime.

If I thought this was a suitable analogy I would not be making the kinds of objections I am making. I simply do not consider this to be a good analogy. A human being is not a kitchen sink that has become grimy with bacterial sin and needs to be cleaned out by "Christ's blood" Kitchen Sink CleanerTM.

You've contradicted youself here. Do we need law and punishments, or not?
Until Christ returns and all is perfect, yes we need law, order, and yes, even punishment. However, we need no longer follow the rules laid before us in the books of Moses. The law is still useful to tell us how sinful we are. It still condemns all those who have not accepted Christ. But in Christ (those who have accepted Him), we have freedom from the law, because we have something greater than the law. That doesn't mean that we don't try to follow the law. It simply means that failing to fulfill the law in every detail of our lives will no longer lead to eternal death and separation from God for eternity.

So Christ won't actually have cleansed anyone until the second coming? Or Christ has cleansed them, but the effects of this cleansing won't be felt until the second coming? To be honest, I am quite confused as to how Christ's death is meant to have this 'delayed reaction'.

I'm afraid that I still do not understand.
 
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I'm gonna let somone else answer your questions. I don't seem to be communicating ithe way you need to have things explained to you. At this point, I'm honestly not sure if you're not "getting it" because these things are spiritually discerned and you're not listening to the Holy Spirit, or if you're just purposely being obtuse about this.

Anyway, I'm obviously not helping you understand this, so I'll leave it to someone else.

In love,
Rachel
 
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