Self-Torment

"God knows what you will do before you do it."

Your first statement is wrong and biblically unfounded. Since the rest of the statements require this to support them, those statements are just as wrong and biblically unfounded.

God does not know what choices we will make, because God does not know every detail about the future - but God certainly knows all the possibilities that ARE available to us to choose, and he knows us well enough to figure out what we will do, but from the perspective of actually KNOWING our choices, well, that's unbiblical. The bible always has God APPEALING to the hearts of men to make the right choices. If God knew they would ignore him anyway, then why does he bother? The answer is, God does not know exactly what they will choose, until the momen they actually make a choice! It's almost like the same universal law governing Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, which states one can never accurately predict where a particle will be at any give point in the future, but you can certainly guess a probable range where it will be found.

Then how is God omnipotent?

S0uljah, why in the world are you asking Josephus when, clearly, he doesn't know what he's talking about?

Originally posted by Josephus
"God knows what you will do before you do it."

Your first statement is wrong and biblically unfounded. Since the rest of the statements require this to support them, those statements are just as wrong and biblically unfounded.

God does not know what choices we will make, because God does not know every detail about the future - but God certainly knows all the possibilities that ARE available to us to choose, and he knows us well enough to figure out what we will do, but from the perspective of actually KNOWING our choices, well, that's unbiblical. The bible always has God APPEALING to the hearts of men to make the right choices. If God knew they would ignore him anyway, then why does he bother? The answer is, God does not know exactly what they will choose, until the momen they actually make a choice! It's almost like the same universal law governing Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, which states one can never accurately predict where a particle will be at any give point in the future, but you can certainly guess a probable range where it will be found.

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You're an idiot.

Originally posted by ThienAn


You're an idiot.

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Actually, Josephus' opinion makes a lot more sense that the standard claims of omniscience given to the Christian God.

I call it the George Burns conception of God. You know, from the movie "Oh, God"

In it, God (Burns) explains that he knows everything... everything that has ever happened. However, how is he supposed to know what people are going to do? He gave us free will!!

In addition, Biblical prophecies can still be valid because God is powerful enough to make them come true regardless of the choices that men make.

It makes complete sense, and Josephus is most certainly not an idiot for his particular view. The Calvinist theology that the future is already predetermined has got to be one of the most flawed Christian theologies ever devised.

This is speaking as someone who has no preference for any particular Christian theology.

Originally posted by Josephus
"God knows what you will do before you do it."

Your first statement is wrong and biblically unfounded. Since the rest of the statements require this to support them, those statements are just as wrong and biblically unfounded.

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God knows everything:

1 John 3:20
For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

John 16:30
Now we can see that you know all things

God knows what you will do, before you do it:

Matthew 26:34
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

God knows what you will do before you do it.

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True!

God knows everyone before they exist.

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True!

God knows what you will do before you exist.

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True!

Everyone chooses their own path, God just knows what you will choose.

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True!

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Up to this point we are in agreement. But then you start on your "bad" God message.

But why create the people that would sin in the first place?

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God created Adam and Eve. Then he told them to be fruitful and multiply. God created...we procreate. God is not up in Heaven churning out people to torment.

This implies some people are born to be tormented for eternity and some are created for heaven.

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Have you ever watched a movie more than once? Before you even put it in you know how it will end. So now… Can I blame you for the sad ending? Time is not one dimensional to God as it is to us. He can see it all at a single glance. It is all out there. He can see our actions before we take them. He knows who will come when called and who will not. He does not call the ones he knows will not come.

This implies some people are born to be tormented for eternity and some are created for heaven.

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God does not write the story of your life. He knows all and he interacts with us and our world... but much of what you are... is by your own free will. I am so tried of people denying God, living a life of evil and sin, then complaining because God is just.

But God loves everyone.
So, why let some self-torment?

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God does love everyone! He would not turn away any of his children. But he has given us free will. So we must choose to be with God.

For what is love... if it is forced?

Luke 11:9 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Originally posted by Stormy
For what is love... if it is forced?

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I don't think that love should be forced either, however I believe that it's wrong of God to create people whom he knows are destined for hell. There is no reason for him to do that, if he's omnibenevolent.

For the record, this is my moderated discussion between souljah and I.

I love everyone's input, and I am sure souljah does too, but next time before offering answers or objections, please consider asking myself or the thread-started for permission to jump in. If you want a public discussion on this issue, then please ask these questions in a public forum like General Apologetics.



In regards to the issue at hand:

Someone did mention about Jesus telling Peter what he would do. What one fails to realize is that God is most certainly greater than our hearts, and knows us better than we know ourselves, that he is accurately able to predict what we will or will not choice when given certain choices in certain circumstances. In fact, this conclusion is the context in which any scripture regarding God telling someone what they will or will not do, is written in. God can harden people's hearts by "playing their buttons" rather well, and thus "use" them for his purposes. God is a very smart, intelligent, and creative God, and is the master of appealing to the free will of a heart; a related category to the art of manipulation of which God has infinite knowledge of.

And this is in fact what we DO see in the bible. If God actually knew our choices before hand from the perspective of actually BEING there in that future time, then our choices serve no useful meaning or purpose since God is ultimately the puppeteer of it all.

If there is something that Yahweh does not know, then he is not omniscient. If Yahweh is not omniscient, then he is not omnipotent, because he has limitations. If Yahweh is not omniscient or omnipotent, why call him God?

But God does know everything!!!

(He even knows that Josephus was wrong)

Originally posted by Josephus
And this is in fact what we DO see in the bible. If God actually knew our choices before hand from the perspective of actually BEING there in that future time, then our choices serve no useful meaning or purpose since God is ultimately the puppeteer of it all.

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Just because you think there's a contradiction between the two, doesn't mean one or the other has to be false. Just because you think it's not possible, you shouldn't make a statement like that about God. Isn't that what your faith is for? Make your faith useful, darn it.

For the record, this is my moderated discussion between souljah and I.

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If you don't want me to stop posting in this thread, just tell me.

Originally posted by s0uljah
Because God worked very, very hard to make free-will truly free Neo.

If it is predictable from the very start, then it isn't truly free. Get it?

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Souljah & Josephus, if you both live long enough to acquire the skills of prediction & manipulation, then you guys can be equal to that of God. Good luck to both of you.

Originally posted by s0uljah
Because God worked very, very hard to make free-will truly free Neo.

If it is predictable from the very start, then it isn't truly free. Get it?

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But God is all-knowing, so there is no freewill. Where in the Bible does it say that man has freewill? I don't believe that there is anything in the Bible to support the doctrine of freewill.

ThienAn : How do we explain this to them???

You exercising your free will... has nothing to do with God knowing what you will do. He is not making you do it!

But he can see time all at once... for he is outside of time!!

You can not!! So you must live your life from day to day. You must use your free will to make the correct choices in your life. It is all up to you.

Because God is not being your puppet master.

Please try to understand!

Stormy,

It just amazes me how a lot of people like to believe in God as if they were plucking apples from the apple tree. If they see an apple that the like, they'll pluck it from the tree and put it in their basket. If they see one that they don't like, they'll just continue on to the next. When they're done, whatever they have accumulated in the basket is God.

SoulJah & Josephus,

if you read something from the bible and you don't understand, just take it on faith - that's what faith is for. Just because you don't understand it, don't try to use your own logic to explain it.

I don't understand the story of Jesus and how He came down to earth and died on the cross for my sins, much less the sins of the world. It's beyond what I can comprehend. But that's what the bible says, and that what God says. So, I'll take it on faith & believe that's what happened.