The Catholic Mass???

TrueWords said:

Isaiah 53



Like i said, this can be easily porved by merely going to the bread and taking it out for a year in the rain and moss etc, lets see what happens.

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Of course you know you are safe in suggesting such a thing for the Church would never do it as it would be commiting great sacriledge if it did . . .

So it is a perfectly safe thing for you to suggest as you will never be proven wrong as you KNOW it will never be done since the Church would never treat The Real Presence is such a sacrilidgeous manner..

So you present a test that you know can never happen . . .

Quite a safe place to argue from if you ask me . . . and quite a CONTRIVED place of safety . . .


It does not absolve you from honestly looking at the evidence that CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES that such a test as you propse IS NOT NECESSARY for the proof you are looking for to be evidenced . . .

A refusal to give the evidence already provided that proves what you want proven and then argue that only the test you propose would be valid, is a logical fallacy . . .

One cannot deliberately ignore actual and solid evidence that PROVES your position is wrong and then pretend it doesn't exist, and make a vaid argument against it. . . .

Actually we do not need to even do that. if there has ever in history been any instance where a bomb hit a rekligious building called a church and destroyed the bread or if a person every vomited up the host or if the bread every went bad or left out etc, that would prove my point.

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How would that prove your point? You would simply prove that God did not condenscend to make the miracle of the Eucharist visibly obvious to all in those circumstances.

That is ALL you would prove . . nothing more . . .

i am sure if we search hard enough we will find instances of this. if the bread is now the literal body of jesus it cannot be corrupted. point proved,


NEXT!!!

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You only continue to prove your lack of understanding of the miracle of the Eucharist . . .

You only would prove that God did not condensend to make the miracle of the Ecuharist VISIBLE to the eyes of all in such circumstance . . .


By your reasoning and logic, it would be just as valid to say that because we do not see and touch Jesus with our eyes and hands when we pray together, then He is not really in our midst . . . .

To be carnally minded, to trust in what we can see, taste, touch, hear, feel is not of God . . .



Peace to all

Deleted.

graysparrow said:

You don't really understand what the Incarnation is about, I am not kidding. Do you understand why they were able to harm Jesus? Did Jesus really die or not? If Jesus did die then his body was corruptible, if He did not really die then our faith is vain.

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I disagree with that. Corruption is the rot and decay of the body after death. This didn't happen to Jesus' body. His dying doesn't make Him corruptible, that'd what He came for.

TrueWords said:

thereselittleflower

You said,

'if we did that to every anti-Catholic poster then they would have free reign and never be called to prove thier absurd claims"

My response,

Show me exactly where i have errored and use scripture to prove me wrong. i eagerly await your answer. though I doubt I will get it. Show me one absurd claim. But I can show you many catholic absurd claims, like saying that God becomes bread and is eaten and sacrificed again. Or that wearing a scapular helps in any way, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

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OK

Agree to go to formal debate with me, one on one . .. not here, not in an open thread. . .

Just you and me . . .


Peace to all

TrueWords said:

Isaiah 53

You refered to a sealed container and some event of the past. ok lets take those pieces of host and put them in a mossy area in the rain and wheather for six months and see if they corrupt. But i also challenge you to have this done now in the present. lets see what happens.

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Let us be very careful here and proceed with caution. It would be blasphemy to treat the body and blood of Christ the way it is suggested. Temptation may come from a source that we are warned against in Scripture. I suggest that those deciding to debate here do so after prayer and fasting and ask for the protection of St. Michael. I ask each of you to consider, would a man of God be so bold as to tempt God in this way? In the light of the following Scriptures I ask that you consider the source that tempts you. I do not know from what source this spirit comes but I do know that we are to test the spirits and the spirit has failed my test confirmed by this post.

I have tested the spirit by blessing it. If the spirit was of God the blessing would be returned but it was not. Could it be a false spirit coming as a spirit of light. Test the spirit against the teaching of Scripture....

(Exodus 17:7 DRB) And he called the name of that place Temptation, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and for that they tempted the Lord, saying: Is the Lord amongst us or not?

(Psalms 78:18 DRB) And they tempted God in their hearts, by asking meat for their desires.

(Psalms 78:19 DRB) And they spoke ill of God: they said: Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?

(Psalms 78:20 DRB) Because he struck the rock, and the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed. Can he also give bread, or provide a table for his people?

(Psalms 78:21 DRB) Therefore the Lord heard, and was angry: and a fire was kindled against Jacob, and wrath came up against Israel.

(Psalms 78:22 DRB) Because they believed not in God: and trusted not in his salvation.

(Psalms 78:23 DRB) And he had commanded the clouds from above, and had opened the doors of heaven.

(Psalms 78:24 DRB) And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them the bread of heaven.

(Psalms 78:25 DRB) Man ate the bread of angels: he sent them provisions in abundance.

(Psalms 78:26 DRB) He removed the south wind from heaven: and by hi s power brought in the southwest wind.

(Psalms 78:27 DRB) And he rained upon them flesh as dust: and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea.

(Psalms 78:28 DRB) And they fell in the midst of their camp, round about their pavilions.

(Psalms 78:29 DRB) So they did eat, and were filled exceedingly, and he gave them their desire:

(Psalms 78:30 DRB) they were not defrauded of that which they craved. As yet their meat was in their mouth:

(Psalms 78:31 DRB) And the wrath of God came upon them. And he slew the fat ones amongst them, and brought down the chosen men of Israel.

(Isaiah 7:10 DRB) And the Lord spoke again to Achaz, saying:

(Isaiah 7:11 DRB) Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God, either unto the depth of hell, or unto the height above.

(Isaiah 7:12 DRB) And Achaz said: I will not ask, and I will not tempt the Lord. (Matthew 4:7 DRB) Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(Luke 4:12 DRB) And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

(Deuteronomy 6:16 DRB) Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, as thou temptedst him in the place of temptation.

(1 Corinthians 10:9 DRB) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted and perished by the serpent.
In Christ

Fr. Joseph

you can't put bread and wine in a mossy place with rain anyways, it would wash into the earth

Lynn73 said:

I disagree with that. Corruption is the rot and decay of the body after death. This didn't happen to Jesus' body. His dying doesn't make Him corruptible, that'd what He came for.

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Do I really need to get into organic chemistry and the effect of oxygen on our bodies?

cristoiglesia said:

I agree with you but Kepler disagrees. He is right that purple is correct for the season. I am very confused. Perhaps I will do both. I was thinking, I could do the purple and put it all in a carved watermelon bowl. That would give the green and the red and the tuna casseroll would be purple. In the past I had gotten the purple with purple sweet potato, very popular here and sweeter than the American varieties. I really appreciate everyones suggestions.

If we can get TrueWords to agree with us I would have full confidence in our group decision.


BTW, you could be my daughters twin except she has very dark brown eyes.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

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I prefer Orange Jello and Tuna Steaks...

TrueWords said:

Shelb5

You said,

“Don’t waste your time arguing- this kind can only be cast out through prayer and fasting.”

My response,

Take heed what you say, you are slandering a minister of the gospel. The implication you make from your verse is that I am demon possesed and with the worst kind of demons. I have God in my heart and His Spirit helps me in all truth.

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Wait a minute, hold up here, please…it’s okay for you to preach at us that we are all hell bound, but I can not say that the rubbish you spew about Catholics can only be cast out through prayer and fasting?

And please TrueWords, on who's authority do you tell me what the bible says? One who’s authority do you have that you are a minister of the word?

And I would like to ask you something, don’t you find it odd that non Catholics, those who are not Roman Catholic are defending Catholics and telling you, you have no clue about Catholicism?

Have you even noticed yet, you have 2 Lutherans, 1 Anglican, a few eastern Orthodox, a non denominational, a Pentecostal, and a priest from the Polish national Catholic Church defending Roman Catholics? Have you noticed yet, that it isn’t only Roman Catholics who believe this stuff too and understand it? Have you noticed yet, this stuff comes down to us from Christ and His apostles?

Shelb5 said:

Wait a minute, hold up here, please…it’s okay for you to preach at us that we are all hell bound, but I can not say that the rubbish you spew about Catholics can only be cast out through prayer and fasting?

And please TrueWords, on who's authority do you tell me what the bible says? One who’s authority do you have that you are a minister of the word?

And I would like to ask you something, don’t you find it odd that non Catholics, those who are not Roman Catholic are defending Catholics and telling you, you have no clue about Catholicism?

Have you even noticed yet, you have 2 Lutherans, 1 Anglican, a few eastern Orthodox, a non denominational, a Pentecostal, and a priest from the Polish national Catholic Church defending Roman Catholics? Have you noticed yet, that it isn’t only Roman Catholics who believe this stuff too and understand it? Have you noticed yet, this stuff comes down to us from Christ and His apostles?

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Shelb,
He is little more than a kid. Haven't you seen his age?
Where do you think all this bravado comes from?
I am the mom and grandma of boys. Just consider it part of the age. It is only temporary.

Not even Protestants spend much time in his company. What he says is not important enough to spend time on.

Is there an ignore button in these forums?

Shelb5 said:

Wait a minute, hold up here, please…it’s okay for you to preach at us that we are all hell bound, but I can not say that the rubbish you spew about Catholics can only be cast out through prayer and fasting?

And please TrueWords, on who's authority do you tell me what the bible says? One who’s authority do you have that you are a minister of the word?

And I would like to ask you something, don’t you find it odd that non Catholics, those who are not Roman Catholic are defending Catholics and telling you, you have no clue about Catholicism?

Have you even noticed yet, you have 2 Lutherans, 1 Anglican, a few eastern Orthodox, a non denominational, a Pentecostal, and a priest from the Polish national Catholic Church defending Roman Catholics? Have you noticed yet, that it isn’t only Roman Catholics who believe this stuff too and understand it? Have you noticed yet, this stuff comes down to us from Christ and His apostles?

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Don't forget an Old Catholic priest as well--

although I really doubt TrueWords even knows the difference between Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, etc.

I notice there is some discussion here about miracles of the Eucharist.
There have been many. All sorts of them, including the ones you are discussing.

I had an experience that I believe was at true Miracle, it was witnessed by many folks including our Pastor and Deacon plus Eucharistic ministers and parishioners.

I would like to share it with you. Before I do, I will swear by everything I believe that this is the truth. I put my hand on my Bible as I swear this, it is true.

In Norco, California, St. Mels Catholic Church approximately 25 years ago, I was serving as a Eucharistic minister. The Priest, Fr Tony, was known to be a little stingy with the amount of wine he used for Communion. We often ran out.
This particular Sunday, I was serving out of the large pewter chalice. We had three other ministers serving out of smaller ones. Father and the Deacon was distributing the Precious Body of our Lord.
On this Sunday, we had several Baptisms and big families were in the front pews.
Without our knowing it, the Knights of Columbus had chosen this Sunday to all attend Mass and bring their families. The Church was totally packed, with folks standing clear out the back doors, on the steps. Looked like Christmas or Easter.
We started distributing Communion and as folks went through the lines, one of the other Eucharistic minsiters came over and looked into my cup. She had run out. I had about an inch of Precious Blood in my large Chalice. Fr. saw and he looked too.
One by one the other ministers ran out and came to see how much I had left and as they did, Father and the Deacon were also checking. The Congregation was watching. Finally all the ministers were out of Jesus's Precious Blood. I looked down in the cup and there was less than half an inch. I looked up and the line was still out the back door. I looked down at the cup and said, "Oh Jesus, there will not be enough of your Precious Blood to serve them!". Father saw this. At that instant, the cup was refilled to the brim. On the outside, you could see the cup fog up clear to the top. I could hear the gasps from the congregation. Father and Deacon looked into the now full cup. I continued to serve every person in the line, maybe a hundred folks. When everyone was served, the cup was still full to the top and Father, our Deacon and the four Eucharistic ministers had to consume what was left in the cup. I was in tears. I started crying as soon as it happened and couldn't stop. The only person handling this was Father who said we should never be surprised, because it was Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever. Miracles should and do happen all the time.
What a testimony from a Priest who spent 10 years as a missionary in the center of voodooland Africa.

Father Rick said:

Don't forget an Old Catholic priest as well--

although I really doubt TrueWords even knows the difference between Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, etc.

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Sorry…I actually got you and Fr. Joseph mixed up.

Ah, yeah, TrueWords, and an Old Catholic priest as well.

And the fact that he doesn't know the difference shows why he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to Catholic teaching.

Catholics teaching, not just for 'Romans' anymore.

Peaceful Dove said:

Shelb,
He is little more than a kid. Haven't you seen his age?
Where do you think all this bravado comes from?
I am the mom and grandma of boys. Just consider it part of the age. It is only temporary.

Not even Protestants spend much time in his company. What he says is not important enough to spend time on.

Is there an ignore button in these forums?

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Begs the question all the more...how in the word does he figure he is a minister of the word?

Yes there is a ignore button. Go to CP and you will find it on the left.

But I agree with Theresa, we have to defend the Church against this junk because if we don’t, the rhetoric will have free reign.

Shelb5 said:

Begs the question all the more...how in the word does he figure he is a minister of the word?

Yes there is a ignore button. Go to CP and you will find it on the left.

But I agree with Theresa, we have to defend the Church against this junk because if we don’t, the rhetoric will have free reign.

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The path to the narrow gate goes right through Rome. I agree but I was serious about being very careful. My Spirit says something is not right with his posts. Not the usual anti-Catholic type. I have never had this kind of feeling before.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Peaceful Dove...

That's a wonderful testimony...

My eucharistic miracle story (the abbreviated version): While going through one of the most difficult times of my life, the bread for communion materialized in my hand out of thin air. At first it looked like a piece of skin. It was flesh colored and kind of translucent like skin is. I actually thought it was a loose piece of skin on my palm, like I had cut myself or something but it grew larger, and turned white as I watched it (with my mouth hanging completely open!). It was almost like something out of Star Trek where something is 'transported' in. The whole thing took maybe 30 seconds to a minute...

I know Jesus told Thomas "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed"-- but in that case, I saw it and still am not sure if I believe it. My mind just can't grasp what I know for a fact happened. (and yes, there were witnesses)

Father Rick said:

Peaceful Dove...

That's a wonderful testimony...

My eucharistic miracle story (the abbreviated version): While going through one of the most difficult times of my life, the bread for communion materialized in my hand out of thin air. At first it looked like a piece of skin. It was flesh colored and kind of translucent like skin is. I actually thought it was a loose piece of skin on my palm, like I had cut myself or something but it grew larger, and turned white as I watched it (with my mouth hanging completely open!). It was almost like something out of Star Trek where something is 'transported' in. The whole thing took maybe 30 seconds to a minute...

I know Jesus told Thomas "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed"-- but in that case, I saw it and still am not sure if I believe it. My mind just can't grasp what I know for a fact happened. (and yes, there were witnesses)

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I love testimony like this. Isn't God awesome, when we are his and have doubts he puts them to rest. I have never had a Eucharistic experience like you guys but he has shown me the truth at crossroads in my life. I had doubts about speaking in tongues and then I was understood in another language in the Ukraine while preaching. I was praying with some other prisoners while in prison who were athiests and they suddenly started speaking in unknown tongues. I had doubts, I'm ashamed to say, about God's miraculous healing and He healed a crippled boy under my hands. If you have not read the works of St. John of the Cross you need to they are inspiring.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Lynn73 said:

I disagree with that. Corruption is the rot and decay of the body after death. This didn't happen to Jesus' body. His dying doesn't make Him corruptible, that'd what He came for.

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Being corruptible and corruption is not the same thing. Our material bodys are always decaying from day 1 (that's conception )