Books taken out by Luther?

KC Catholic · Jun 4, 2002

/me thinks it's nice to have NJY back among us!

VOW · Jun 4, 2002

To Reformationist:

I still feel that if you trace back the origin of the differences between Catholic and Protestant, you hit the root of "sola Scriptura" and "sola fide."

To ME, the main difference between Catholic and Protestant is the absence of the Real Presence in Communion. Luther made the break from that, in order to escape from what he considered to be the domination of Apostolic Succession. And each further splintering from Luther brought the non-Catholic Christians further and further away from the Real Presence.

How do they justify it? "Sola Scriptura."

Reformationist, in my book, EVERY SINGLE DIFFERENCE between Catholic and Protestant is trivial compared to definition and acknowledgement of the Real Presence. I'm literally heartbroken that non-Catholics are denying themselves the ability to TOUCH GOD. I've read the different Creeds of the Protestant faiths, and some of them actually say: "The concept of the Real Presence is abhorrent." ABHORRENT! To a Catholic, saying the Real Presence is abhorrent is just as bad as denying Christ himself!

And yes, I do BLAME MARTIN LUTHER for that. Martin Luther, and his Sola Scriptura.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
Don't like my Jehovah's Witness quote Reformationist? Need I remind you of your comments prior to mine?

Okay. I'll say it s-l-o-w-l-y. Yes people are led astray. And, yes it's part of God's plan.

I think that everyman who suffers eternal damnation is something that has gone on against God's plan.

Or just maybe, the lives of each of us turn out, oh I don't know, exactly like God planned.

God wishes the salvation of all men, it is we who frustrate that plan by our rejection of Him.

Yeah. That's what we do. We frustrate the plan of a sovereign God. He planned one thing, we go against that, things turn out differently than God had planned.

Who was that again that you thought was subject to whom?

What you seem to be saying is that God wouldn't let anyone change the Bible so they could be led astray. You are, obviously, wrong.

Noooo. What I said was that if someone is led astray then that is part of God's plan. You see, nyj, you and I only see a tiny little part of God's plan, even in our own life. How many times do things happen in your life that seem bad only to have your faith increased by them later because God brings you through it? Think about David in the book of 1 Samual:

1 Sam 17:37
"The LORD, who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine."

I'm sure, at the time, the lion and bear seemed pretty bad to David. But afterward he could draw upon those experiences and it increased his faith.

While God's will is known to us, it is up to us to see that His will be done.

I agree. But, know that if it is God's Will that your neighbor have the gospel shared with him/her and you don't do it, for whatever reason, guess what? God is bigger than your decision not to do it. It will get done, by somebody else if necessary. Or, God will change your heart and you'll do it anyway.

We can either do His will, or reject His will. In those cases either His will, will be brought about, or it will not.

Let me get this straight. You think that you are the determining factor in whether God's Will gets brought about? Please tell me this isn't the teaching of the RCC.

Do you think it was God's will that Adam and Eve suffer the fall?

Absolutely. You don't? I'll say it as clear as I can, "IF IT HAPPENED, IT WAS GOD'S WILL. IF IT DOESN'T, IT NEVER WAS HIS WILL. GOD'S WILL IS ALWAYS DONE, ALWAYS."

What is God to you? Just someone who has a plan that He sets in to motion but is then just powerless and is subjected to the will of His creation? I know this, I could never embrace the concept of a God that could create something that He could not control. What would I be worshipping Him for? For creating me? Once He did, I'm more powerful than He is because He is subject to my will.

God bless.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by Raphael
i'm sorry if this thread offends you, reformationist; my intentions were just to know the differences between the Lutheran and the Catholic Bibles.

I know. I'm not offended. And, I apologize to everyone who has seen my posts if they offensive.

you know, i heard all the anti-Catholicism rhetoric, and actually, that's what shook my faith. sad thing was, it wasn't to the point where i was thinking of converting to Protestantism (is that the term?), i was just thinking about not caring about religion at all.

I think even your Catholic brethren would inform you that "not caring about religion at all" is worse than "converting to Protestanism."

God bless.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by KC Catholic
Missy -

What about "Go forth to all the world and preach the good news." Doesn't it take man to fullfil that? What about feeding the hungry, caring for the poor, healing the sick, visiting the imprisioned, clothing the naked? Bring peace and God's word to all who are in need of it?

Certainly GOd needs a willing man to do this work. We are asked daily to do God's will - not our will.

I think what Missy is saying is that even though God's Will for KC Catholic is that he "go forth to all the world and preach the good news," if you are not obedient, it will still be done. And, if you are truly God's child He will bring about the changes necessary for you to learn to be more obedient.

That is why we have free will - a choice to chose God's will or our own.

For a Christian that's an issue of personal obedience to God's Word, not whether His Will will be done.

God bless.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
Hmmm, so you think that God created some people for the sole purpose of torturing them for all eternity?

Here is your actual equation:

Loving God + Malicious Divine Intent = Confused Christian

No dude. That's your interpretation of my equation. My equation could also be worded:

Loving God + Loving Divine intent for His children = Perseverance of the Saints

You just put too much emphasis on those to whom God does not extend His saving grace.

God bless.

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 4, 2002

A child is molested, tortured, and finally killed. You say that is God's will? Riiiighhhhht.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj

Read Luther's Preface to the New Testament. Let his own words betray him.

Okay, where would I find that? And before I read it, try going back and reading how I have stated many times that Luther is just a man, granted a learned man, but still just a man.

God bless.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
Perhaps you can answer me two questions Missy:

1) What was the purpose of God's creation of man?
2) What does Matthew 7:21* mean?

*"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I know I'm not Missy but hopefully you'd like to hear my response as well.

1. To glorify Him.

2. It means that there are those who have the outward appearance of being a Christian but aren't truly saved. Jesus was just showing that there is a distinction between everyone that His Father created and those that He regenerated.

Not sure what this was supposed to prove for you but I'm sure you have your own interpretation.

God bless.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
A child is molested, tortured, and finally killed. You say that is God's will? Riiiighhhhht.

Okay. We could do it your way:

"A child is molested, tortured, and finally killed" and, as God is subject to whether man does His Will, He's just sitting there in Heaven saying, "No. Wait. Please don't do that. No. Wait. Oh...what am I gonna do? I can't stop this from happening. They're my creation but I don't really concern Myself with what they do. Oh...I wish I could stop the powerful creation from doing that travesty." Riiiighhhhht.

:idea:

I know. Maybe God has shown someone by that terrible incident the level of depravity from which they are saved. Their faith is increased and it helps them be a better parent and make sure they love their children and raise them so they never do such a terrible thing to anyone. This results in a long family line who grow up loving God and being obedient to His Word. All the while, that little child who was so wronged is sitting their with his/her Creator never experiencing anything but the overwhelming love of her true Father. As I said, if you concentrate on each individual instance it's real easy to doubt the sovereignty of God, or His love for you. But if you consider that only God knows the purpose for His Will you can be content in the knowledge of this one thing:

Rom 8:28
And we know that ALL THINGS work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

It doesn't say "all good things." We can be confident that though something may seem bad, if we trust the Lord, we know it's for the purpose of our sanctification.

God bless.

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist

This results in a long family line who grow up loving God and being obedient to His Word.

This is not what happens in the real world. The abused becomes one in a long family line of abusers.

Of course He could stop that from happening, but then free-will wouldn't mean much. And as a result, the whole purpose for our existence would be meaningless.

So, were you cheering on 9/11?

Raphael · Jun 4, 2002

I think even your Catholic brethren would inform you that "not caring about religion at all" is worse than "converting to Protestanism."

definitely. i had never felt so lost in my whole entire life. just having God out of your life makes you feel so empty.

GreenEyedLady · Jun 4, 2002

"So, were you cheering on 9/11?"
I hardly think that any Christian or any american was cheering that day.
But alot of people many have thought "there is a reson for this, God has his plan, Somehting good will come out of it"
Hey looky there president bush reciting the bible....and millions of people heard it!
There is alot of good that can come out of something evil.
God has the power over all!
GEL

Miss Shelby · Jun 4, 2002

nyj's back! :clap:

Michelle

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
This is not what happens in the real world. The abused becomes one in a long family line of abusers.

Oh you're right. People who are abused grow up to abuse their children and teach them to abuse their children. Nobody ever learns from the mistakes of their parents.

Of course He could stop that from happening, but then free-will wouldn't mean much.

I don't really think you would entertain anyone's notion of "free-will" if it was in contrast to yours so I won't waste my time or yours.

And as a result, the whole purpose for our existence would be meaningless.

So because you think God doesn't providencially regenerate fallen man from their inequities without you choosing it that would make your life meaningless? All you are doing is clarifying who you truly think is sovereign.

So, were you cheering on 9/11?

Let me guess. By this statement all your doing is trying to help me gain a greater understanding of the Catholic faith and how it has changed you? Why would you even ask such a thing? I never said that all the things that happen in our life are pleasurable. What I do know is that God is greater than anything that could happen in this world and futhermore though the intention of an act by some is evil, God will use it for good.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
I know this is going out on a limb, but if I were to venture a guess, I'd say it would be found in Luther's translation of the Bible. If I were to step even further out on that limb, I'd say you could find it immediately preceeding the New Testament.

Oh. I see.

Very edifying.

VOW · Jun 4, 2002

To Reformationist and NYJ:

Before this degenerates into a complete brawl, let's back up a little.

It appears that Reformationist is of the "predestination school of thought." And I don't think there will EVER be common ground between the ones who believe in predestination and the ones who don't. As much as I detest the phrase, "agree to disagree" I think this is one of those necessary instances.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

GreenEyedLady · Jun 4, 2002

Just wondering if any catholics know of ANY protestant that USES Luthers bible as the Infallible word of God??
You won't find any but happy hunting!

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
To which I reply:
Do I believe that? Absolutely NOT. Why not? Because it is completely illogical.

Oh yes. It's much more logical to believe in a God who has the power to create something but once that's done,

, He has no control over how things will turn out. Oh yeah. Very logical.

Let us look at Reformationists (il)logic here:

Reformationist wants us to believe that "The Fall(tm)" was a part of God's divine plan.

Let's look at nyj's (il)logic here:

nyj wants us to believe the "The Fall" was not part of God's plan and it happened separate to God's Divine Will. If that were indeed the case, God could hardly be called God because He decreed things to be one way, and uh-oh, it didn't turn out that way.

The Fall was not good.

The Fall resulted in your salvation. Without being separated from God there is no way you could appreciate the love that He has for you. You know the saying, "you don't know what'cha got, 'til it's gone?" Well, in our case, "we didn't know what we didn't have, 'til we got it."

Also, a verse from Genesis is quite problematic to Reformationists position, Genesis 2:16-17:

Hmmm...didn't God say "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Do you think God was wondering whether they would eat of the tree? Let's see, what actually happened. Did they eat of the tree? Oh that's right, they did. Since God knew they would and did not stop them, do you think just maybe it was His Will that it happen? It's not like they were just combing their hair in an unpleasant manner. Their disobedience resulted in the downfall of mankind. Don't you think, if it wasn't His Will, He would have stopped something that would have had such a devastating result? Or just maybe, since His plan, which included the Fall, was complete before Adam and Eve were created don'tcha think, just maybe it was part of His plan. Or is it that you think God was coming up with "plan B" when he realized Adam and Eve were going to be disobedient. Yeah. That's real logical.

According to Reformationists logic, God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from that tree, matter of fact, not only did He want to, He planned it that way. Yet, the whole time God is wanting Adam and Eve to eat from that tree, He's telling them NOT to eat from that tree.

That's sounds vaguely familiar. Hmmm...oh I got it. Like even today when God's Word is telling someone not to sin and they do it anyway. God has no clue how to use that disobedience to bring about a closer relationship with His children. Yeah. There's a God for ya.

Even human parents know how to do that. I never said God made Adam sin. Prior to the Fall Adam was a lot different than an unregenerate fallen man. But, when you compare the choices available to Adam prior to the Fall to that of non-regenerate man it is just going to end up in confusion.

In either case, God doesn't come out smelling like roses in Reformationists scenario.

Or maybe, every time nyj passes off his ridiculous interpretation of what I'm saying as what I'm actually saying God doesn't "come out smelling like roses." I give you the following example:

NYJ's Logic: God says X, and means X.

Reformationist's Logic: God says X, but means Y.

I do not deny that God's will can be done and I do not believe that it can be permanently frustrated, but I do believe that we can alter God's will to the point where additional action is neccessary on His part to make His will known and done.

So when God's plan was complete and He proclaimed it good He wasn't really omniscient enough to take into account nyj's daily "superceding of His plan." Yeah. There's an omnipotent God.

Truth of the matter is, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, Jesus Christ would not have had to die for our sins because there would have been no sins to die for.

Hmmm...and yet it still happened. So what should I do. Should I believe in a God that is so powerless that He cannot ensure that even His very own plan will come about exactly as He decrees? LOL...Yeah right

.

God created man so that man could worship Him and we could be with Him always, which is what woudl have happened in the Eden if Adam and Eve didn't eat of that fruit they were forbidden.

Yeah. He just stuck them out there and let chance run it's course. I was growing tired of this but now it's getting quite amusing.

Reformationist · Jun 4, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
Before this degenerates into a complete brawl, let's back up a little.

I think it's too late. Anyway, I'm done. This isn't edifying to either of us. Feel free to post away nyj.

God bless.

Books taken out by Luther?

Everybody's gone surfin'...Surfin' U.S.A

Moderator

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Based on a True Story

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Based on a True Story

Active Member

My little Dinky Doo

Legend

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Moderator

My little Dinky Doo

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

Similar threads