Another - Why pray to Saints?

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

Ok, another big one that I am struggling with is "Why pray to saints?"

Isn't that blasphemous? I have heard it is like going through a middle man, so to speak, but priests are middle men and I don't pray to them? :scratch:

jukesk9 · May 31, 2002

No middle man here. Christ still mediates these prayers. All a prayer to a saint is a request for them to pray for us. We believe, from Romans, that death doesn't separate us from Christ therefore those Christians who have gone before us are with Christ. From Hebrews, we know we are surrounded by them. From Revelations, we know that they hear our prayers and deliver them to God. From St. Paul's epistles, we are taught that prayer from a righteous person is very powerful and again St. Paul urges us to pray for one another. So no, it's not blasphemous because it takes nothing from Christ. Check out the ending of the Hail Mary, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." Who's Mary going to pray to? God through Jesus, the mediator.

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

I see, thanks. Of course, this brings the question of why can't God hear them Himself, but alas, you answered that as well...a prayer from a righteous person is very powerful.

You all have been very helpful, thanks again.

KC Catholic · May 31, 2002

No -

We believe that those who have died and are alive in heaven and that we are all part of the living, mystical body of Christ.

The operative word here is "TO" and it causes some concern. We are not praying to the Saints as if they were God, but rather we are asking them to pray for us as we would of each other here on earth.

I use my "football game" analogy:

God's up in the Coach's box
Jesus is on the sidlines calling the plays and directing the teams movement down the field to the goaline "Heaven".

Mary and the Saints are in the stands cheering on the team (we the believers) as we take on the Devil and his minions.
Have you seen a game where the players are on the goaline and turn to the crowd, waving their arms wildly for "some noise"?

Well, to me praying to Mary and the Saints for assistance is like waving my arms in the air for some crowd noise from the Saints.

We hear them cheer, Jesus hears them cheer and will respond with the right play to get us in the endzone.

Corn, I know...but I believe that we are all one family - on earth as it is in heaven!

Hth.

VOW · May 31, 2002

To KC:

I LOVED your football play analogy!!!

To Souljah:

Another comparison is when you were a little kid. Say you did something STUPID, like break a bedroom window. You know when Daddy gets home, there's going to be an explosion. You go tell Mommy what happened. She gets the broom and dustpan, tells you to clean up the mess, and she'll be with you when you explain things to Daddy.

Moms are often more approachable than Daddies.

You aren't "required" to pray to saints, though. It's an individual decision. But it doesn't hurt to read up on some of them, understand exactly what they went through in their Faiths. They can be incredibly inspiring.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

Cool. thanks.

cougan · Jun 1, 2002

1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Well this verse seems to say that Jesus is the only way for you prayers to get to the father. Consisder the next verse.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

There isnt any examples that I know of in the bible of someone praying to someone that has all ready died so that they can have the prayers of this dead person. Perhaps you can show me that example. The bible teaches over and over again to pray to the father in Jesus name. When it talks about praying for each other that is in refrence to living breathing people. Oh yeah on top of that the bible doesnt say anywhere that I know of that a person that has died can hear your prayers. Perhaps you can provide an example.

bouncer · Jun 1, 2002

yea...it is hard to understand why we should ever have to pray to saints to pray for us. i mean eventually, it is Gods will.....what difference does it make if WE pray, or a saint prays for us? in fact i think God would appreciate us praying directly to him through Jesus, as is taught to us in the Bible....
(umm...im not aware of the verses in Revelations and the epistles and hebrews, where jukesk9 pointed out that it tells us we can....so can you please also post the specific verses...)

Also, I believe it sends wrong signals out to people of other religons that we christians worship other men. now, i know thats not true but it is our duty to ensure that people see us in the right sense, and not as worshippers of mortals.

just a few thoughts.....

isshinwhat · Jun 1, 2002

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Revelations 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelations 8:3-4
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

The last passage is quoted to show that those in Heaven are aware of the lives of those on Earth. I have refrained from posting references from Scripture that is deemed apochryphal by Protestants, but it can be posted, too, if you are curious about it. Hope it helped a little!

Neal

isshinwhat · Jun 1, 2002

The following quote comes from a previous discussion from this forum on this very topic. Jason is in China now, so I hope he doesn't mind my quoting him

He's not (yet, but will be, I hope) Catholic, so I figured his viewpoint would be helpful.

God Bless,

Neal

Hi Kris,

I'm not Catholic but I'll share why they do it. Actually they don't pray TO the dead. They ask saints in heaven to pray for us (to intercede for us). There's a BIG difference between praying TO and asking saints.

Anyway, as for intercession of the saints I'll have to explain about 'family' first.

Heb 12:1 say that we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (Heb chapter 11 talks about those witnesses). I used to think of this passage as referring to the fact that we know of these people as having been faithful, so we can have faith like them. But now I take the passage literally meaning that these witnesses are among us. Why? Read on =)

Heb 12:22-24 says that believers have come upon the heavenly Jerusalem, "to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, WHOSE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the SPIRITS OF RIGHTEOUS MEN MADE PERFECT". Did you catch that? We're among other brethren in spirit! So the fact is that the church is a "family in heaven AND earth" (Eph 3:15) as "one body" in Christ (Eph 3:6).

Many will say that asking saints to pray for us is ancestral worship. But scripture clearly says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING, for to him ALL are alive." (Luke 20:38). In other words all who are in Christ are living! This gives legit reasoning for me to believe that asking saints to intercede for us is fine, since we're among many believers (Heb 12:22-24). Even Jesus intecedes for us (Rom 8:24, Heb 7:25). By the way, the Holy Spirit does it too!! (Romans 8:26-27) So if ALL the saints are praying (Revelation 8:3), and if they're in heaven, where they do not need to worry about things, then we can safely conclude that maybe they're interceding for us that God's will be done on earth as it is heaven (Matthew 6:10) =)

And if we are "one body" (Eph 3:6) on "earth and heaven" (Eph 3:15), then why wouldn't it be wrong to ask saints to join in on our prayers? Technically, you can have a MASSIVE prayer meeting with countless number of saints (like everyone in Matthew chapter 1), since ALL of us live in Christ (Luke 20:38). If anything they're probably more 'alive' than we are! LOL! =)

I don't know if you'd agree with that but it makes sense to me.

God bless!

-Jason

Julie · Jun 1, 2002

Ecclesiastes 9:5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing.

How can we be sure who we are praying to is even in Heaven?

Julie

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Cougan:

When it talks about praying for each other that is in refrence to living breathing people.

What evidence do you have that is the intention of Scripture? I haven't found any Scripture saying, "Only living, breathing people can pray for one another." However, there is ample evidence that those who have died are alive in Christ, for that indeed is the promise of Jesus.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Julie:

The Scripture you quoted is in the Old Testament; the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament is that the dead are alive in Christ.

How can we be sure who we are praying to is even in Heaven?

The canonized saints of the Catholic Church are people who lived very holy, very inspirational lives here on earth. Some of them even died for the faith, incredible, tortuous, bloody deaths for Christ. If ANYONE would be in Heaven, they would.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

bouncer · Jun 1, 2002

to isshinwhat:

thanks for the posts...that does help...

just one quick question, is it that catholics pray to the saints only when there is something that is really important, and they are in desperate need for God answering their prayer; or are all prayers directed to the saints.....?

if it is the former, then i must admit it makes sense as well, but if its the latter, to me it seems to take away the personal one to one realtionship you might have with God by taking your requests directly to him. if all the prayers are to saints then somewhere along the line someone who doesnt know better might confuse as to who they actually should be praying to.....

thanks.

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Bouncer:

It depends on the Catholic. But I'd say it's generally the former. Many Catholics look upon the Saints (a patron saint, especially) or Mary, as a very close, understanding, loving friend. And in prayer, they talk to these "friends" as you would visit with someone close to you. You share the good times as well as the bad times with a beloved friend.

Understand, though, that in worshipping at Mass, ALL PRAYERS are directed to God. Mass it the ultimate worship, and we all glorify God when we attend.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

bouncer · Jun 1, 2002

to VOW and isshinwhat:

ok...i understand the concept now....but why not just pray to Jesus as that 'close friend' and 'mediator' between yourself and God. isnt Jesus the best person to pray to, since he is God and he is also man, and he was sent down for this very purpose....

the only reason i seem to have a problem with praying to saints is that in the end, they were after all human....but Jesus on the other hand was the perfect saint, God himself as man, who better to pray to? why put a saint before Jesus?...

thanks.

kern · Jun 1, 2002

bouncer:

Presumably a person would ask Mary or the saints to pray for her, and then also direct a prayer or five of her own to Jesus. It would be rather suspicious if a person never prayed directly to Jesus, only to saints.

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? If so, why didn't you just pray to God yourself? Whatever answer you give for that will probably also apply to the Catholics asking saints to pray for them.

-Chris

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Bouncer:

You aren't putting a Saint "before Jesus." You are talking to a friend, someone who inspires you, someone you admire, someone who has demonstrated a deeper knowledge of the faith, someone who has shown a rich prayer life, and you are asking this friend to pray for you. It's the same as if you ask your fellow congregation members to join you in prayer.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

bouncer · Jun 1, 2002

to VOW :

yea i see what you mean finally....thanks. a friend once told me that he prays to saints. he didnt elaborate, and i took it to mean that it was the saints themselves that he was praying to, or that he was praying to GOD through the saints alone. which i thought was wrong...but this does make it clearer.

to kern :

honestly, I have NEVER asked anyone else to pray for me purely because in my own personal opinion I think God will hear my prayer as much as he will hear it through anyone else. i mean, i dont think it is wrong, my parents, pastors, friends all ask others to pray for them, but honestly, ive never felt the need to do that.

which brings me to another question.....how important is prayer by OTHERS(saints, friends,pastors, family) for us? could God be persuaded by others, to answer our prayers even if he does not want to answer it when we ourselves ask him? am i wrong in not asking others to pray for me?!

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Bouncer:

The person who gathers a huge team of folks to pray for him isn't more likely to "get what he wants from God." We don't work on the point system, LOL.

Community prayer encourages us to work together, as a whole, for the betterment of everyone. We do not exist in a vacuum, the Church is a collection of PEOPLE, and we all together form the whole. A single cell in your liver, say, isn't more important than a single cell in your eyeball. BOTH have vital functions to work together for the entire "you." And NEITHER can function alone! Community prayer is a constant reminder that none of us is more important than another.

Secondly, prayer is GOOD for you! By asking others to pray for you, you are actually doing THEM a favor, LOL. Prayer encourages your spiritual growth, so you, as the recipient of the prayer benefits, but so do the people who pray for you.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

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